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Posted: 6/20/2003 11:25:04 PM EDT
I've been itching for a long range scope.

Bushnell is what I'm sold on, but I can't decide between the Elite 4200 6-24 or 4-16. Is 6-24 Overkill, it almost seems like it to me, anything over 20 would just be a blur without a bench rest (slightly dramatized). Right??

Would a scope as long as the 6-24(16.9") not mount in the right position (too far back because of rail position), would the 4-16 (14.4")??

And also, I would like the scope removable (fairly easily) as well. Are the Leupold QRW rings solid and accurate? I have a hard time believing leupold would put out a real crummy product, but then again, a removable ring with dependable accuracy is hard to believe too.

Thanks
Gundraw
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 4:40:17 AM EDT
It is not just the blur from shake that you get with the high power scopes it is the mirage. When you are looking through a higher power scope you will see the heat coming off everything. It sometimes looks like your target is boiling. I have had higher power scopes, Burris 6-24, Leupold 6.5-20, etc., and I have found the 4.5-14x to be enough power for long range shooting. For a varmint scope you may want to have a little more power, but the 4.5-14x works for me. You may want to do some reading on the repeatability of the Bushnell scopes. This is the ability for a scope to be adjusted for bullet drop then be able to return back to its original position and shoot in the same place. A lot of the cheaper scopes cannot do this and will give you problems while adjusting for drop. Others will click 3 times and not give you any change then on the forth click jump a whole inch. You get what you pay for. Try http://www.snipershide.com , http://www.snipercountry.com/ , or http://www.snipersparadise.com for some good info on scopes and long range shooting. IDHunt
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 6:10:41 AM EDT
I've seen the Elite 4200 6x24s, VERY nice piece of glass. I shot a guy's Cooper .223 with one of those, on a fairly warm day, and I didn't have a problem with "mirage" or whatever you want to call it. I've got a Weaver Grand Slam 6x20 on my .22-250, and it's very clear and free from mirage as well. On the other hand, I've got a 36x BSA on a rifle, and that one DOES mirage like crazy...of course, there's a huge quality difference between the Elite, the Grand Slam, and the BSA. You can alwasy leave the 6x24 on a lower power setting, but you can't get more power out of the 4x16 when you want it. Go ahead and get the 6x24, I really don't think you'll regret it. As far as the length goes, I've got a Tasco on my varmint upper that's 16" long. It's on a riser, and I don't have any problems with it, other than the fact that it's almost as long as the upper lol. Eye relief is fine, but I may mount my stuff further back than some folks, and with that long a scope, you might have to as well. Another .9" *might* be pushing it. I suppose you could get an extended ARMS style mount, and that would allow you to move it more forward, so that the eye wasn't so far back.
Link Posted: 6/21/2003 11:08:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2003 11:10:18 AM EDT by uglygun]
Mirage usually becomes a problem depending on a combination of two factors, teperatures where you are shooting and magnification of the scope. Too much of one or the other can compound the effects of mirage, both together can make it incredibly difficult. Most good variable powers though will still provide you some useable magnification, usually the boundary seems to be set around 10x for combating mirage. Anything above 10x and you might find yourself a bit more susceptable to mirage if it's hot out but with most variables out there it's pretty easy to dial down to something like 6-10x. The Bushnell Elite scopes have pretty decent optics but I don't think they compete on level ground with something like a Leupold VariXIII with target knobs. My Bausch&Lomb 6-24x Elite 4000 is the predacessor to what are now the Bushnell Elite 4200s. The gripes I have with the 6-24x B&L is that it's turrets are somewhat hokey, only a single screw attaching through the top of the turret holds it in place and they do come loose under recoil and would fall off if it weren't for the turret covers. Then there's the useable elevation, I personally do not view the 6-24x as a "long range" scope because it has a limited range of travel, something silly like 36MOA total elevation from one extreme to the other which about 1/2 of that gets used up just finding paper so you get left with somewhere between 12-18MOA on average of useable left over elevation. It is also TERRIBLY long at 17 inches without a sunshade, reaching out there to adjust that objective ring is a PAIN in the butt. The nice things about the 6-24 B&L that I have though, it does have nice optics that are clear and the 1/8MOA adjustments are nice for splitting hairs on the bench when printing groups. It's probably more of a benchrest scope than anything. It's a decent value scope but I find myself battling with mechanical or physical limitations with it more than I find the magnification to be a problem. My local area gets upwards of 100-110 degrees during the summer. Mirage seems to become a problem at anything much over 85-90 degrees but it has yet to be such a problem that I can't find a useable magnification with my 6-24x B&L or my 6.5-20x Leupold LongRange VariXIII, often times I'll dial down to around 8-10x and still have a perfectly useable scope. In the cooler months when I'm out I regularly have the scope at 16-20x for varminting work where the magnification comes in real handy when 400 yard rocks and small shrubs start to look like squirrels at 10x and below. Here's a picture of my 6-24x B&L mounted to my AR10, that aught to tell you how long the scope is. [img]http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/ar10/AR10A4lft.jpg[/img] Mounted to my 20inch Bushmaster A3 as a backup varminting rifle, the objective of the B&L 6-24 comes about 2 inches from hitting the front sight base after placing the eye piece in a position for comfortable eye relief.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 2:26:12 PM EDT
Uglygun I can't say I understand the range of travel issue. Please explain that to me, I'm very interested. Is it the reticle adjustment, zeroing capabilities? Sorry, I'm fairly informed about the different systems in scopes but there are a few things I've yet to learn (obviously). That turret issue is kind of screwey too, I hope they have corrected that on the Elite 4200. Interesting though. So as a long range target scope you would not recommend this? Thanks Gundraw
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 4:23:55 PM EDT
ok, the overall travel, there is a mechanical limit within every scope as to just how many times you can "click" or move the reticle. Most all of the manufacturers have settled on representing the mechanical travel in terms of Minute of Angle or simply "MOA", it gives a decent representation of how much useable adjustment the shooter can expect to have available. Generally, when a person goes to zero their scope they start with the reticle centered in it's mechanical movement. This will leave the shooter with 1/2 of the useable adjustment range through it's extremes, if you started with 60MOA through it's extremes with the reticle centered you now have 30MOA for zeroing. Then, from that point once you have zero'd you have the remainder left over for using to dial in additional range. Using the 6-24x Elite 4200 as an example, if it only has 30MOA through it's extremes that leaves around 15MOA useable adjustment from a centered reticle to zero with. With luck you might use up only 2-3MOA of elevation and windage when sighting in for a 100 yard zero. So on the 15MOA with the reticle dead centered, once zero'd you could either stand to gain or lose 2-3MOA. Now you wind up with somewhere between 12-18MOA of useable elevation to work out to distances beyond 100 yards. Looking at the balistics of the 223Remington, from a 100 yard zero many rounds will require 12MOA of elevation by the time you get out to 500 yards. What exactly is "long range" to you? If you are looking to shoot 500-600+ yards with the 223Remington, a scope with limited travel like the 6-24 Elite 4200 might not be your cup of tea. But if you will rarely shoot out to 500 yards then the 6-24 could likely get it done for you. Looking at the Bushnell website for the specs on the 6-24 Elite 4200, they list a total of 26 inches of adjustment at 100 yards for that scope which roughly equates to 26MOA. Another thing to be aware of. As a scope is moved to the higher extremes of it's elevation travel, it loses windage travel. What happens is the actual scope tube begins to interfere with the reticle as the device is moved through it's mechanical range. If you top out the reticle moving it upwards in the tube, you lose the ability to move it to the side. Having the reticle perfectly centered between it's upward/downward travel might yield a person a total of 16MOA of windage in either direction with brand "x" scope. But if you dial in 8MOA of elevation on that same scope, the useable windage available to the person may wind up being closer to 10-12MOA instead of the 16MOA available when centered. All of this doesn't have to be quite so complicated, in reality most shooters won't really ever worry about how much adjustment they have in their scope. But when I hear somebody wanting to shoot "long range" one of the first things I always think of is what the capabilities of the optics are and whether or not the optics can match what the owner wants to do. The 6-24x Elite 4200 seems to be a unique case where it is one of the more limited scopes in terms of internal adjustment. It probably has something to do with the 1/8 MOA adjustments and how they decided to run the turrets. In order to use that scope at further than 500 yards it would likely be neccesary for a person to resort to tricks usually reserved for the 800-1200 yard shooters who use tapered bases that give back 20-30MOA of useable elevation to the scope. It would likely just be easier to find a scope with more useable elevation than that of the 6-24x if your goal is longer range shooting. Looking at the Bushnell page, their 4-16x scopes have upwards of 50inches of travel at 100 yards which is approximately 50MOA of useable travel(double that of the 6-24x which leads me to suspect it's the 1/8moa turrets on the 6-24), with the 4-16x Bushnell the 50MOA of travel is likely to get you to 500-600 with more ease and less fuss than the 6-24x. Hopefully this wasn't too long or hard to understand. I know if there is something I left out or didn't put quite correctly there are other forum members who can jump in and put it in more simple or eloquent words. Part of what needs to be answered is just how far you intend to shoot. Going back to your original post, out of the two scopes I would say that the 4-16x Elite 4200 would be a more flexible choice for long range shooting than the 6-24x Elite 4200 if shooting out to 500-600 yards. On my 223Remington that I use for varminting I went with a scope that has upwards of 80MOA of useable adjustment through it's extremes, shooting out to 600 yards I have yet to run out of useable elevation with that scope. I could probably get away with a scope of lesser adjustability but I was specifically looking for a scope that could likely get me to 700 if neccesary. On my 300 Winchester Mag I am saving up for a scope that has upwards of 120MOA of travel through it's extremes because I am looking to eventually shoot 1000-1200 yards with the rifle when I get it rebuilt. As it sits now, I have one of the Bushnell Elite 3200 10x Tactical scopes on the rifle and even with an advertised 80MOA of adjustment I can only dial up to 700 yards of adjustment. Reason being, my mounts/bases ate up A LOT of my scope's internal adjustment, such that from a 100 yard zero I only have about 15-18 useable MOA which is barely enough for 700 yards. If I kept that scope on the rifle, I could hit 1000 yards by getting a 20MOA tapered base but then I would just barely be doing it. The ideal situation for me would be to have a scope perfectly capable of doing that on it's own, then maybe put a 20MOA base on inorder to gain back not only additional elevation but additional windage.
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 4:27:12 PM EDT
Oh, and later or tomorrow I might be able to get a few pictures online of the turrets which I am less than satisfied with. The adjustments seem to track properly so they are mechanically sound. It's just that I don't consider them to be more durable or rugged compared to other target knobs I've come to know. I'll post some pictures of my Leupold VariXIII target turrets and my Bushnell Elite 3200 10x turrets for comparison.
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 5:07:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 11:42:43 AM EDT by GunDraw]
Uglygun, I was scared that's what you meant, the range of travel threw me off, I had never heard it called that, but it makes sense. I had a big run around with that because on my .270, the rings were just a HAIR two low, so I shimmed them, Well, I ended up having to shim the front a (well, aluminum can width)little taller than the rear so the adjustable objective would not touch the barrel. SO to correct this, I had to compensate with the reticle placement, and had to make sure I was taking into account my range of adjustment. I had a feeling that's what you were saying but wanted to make sure. I did not know about that part with the windage that makes perfect sense. Although this is not something you would adjust with near as much regularity, that is interested none the less. I appreciate the in depth information on this all, VERY helpful indeed. Yes, i'm looking at probably no more than 500 yd shots. I'll do a lot of plinking and such at about 100 but would like to be able to take longer, UP TO 500 yds. Being how this 4-16 would be around 16 inches, would I need a rail extension to mount this correctly to my rail and still get the proper amount of relief. Appreciate the insight Uglygun and everyone else who posted. Any more suggestions would be appreciated. Gundraw
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 11:45:21 AM EDT
Anyone Care to comment about the 4-16?? Gundraw
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:03:03 PM EDT
Well on the topic of optical overkill. I am just finishing my upper w/Pac-Nor .20 Tact, with a Nightforce NXS 8-32X56. Sweet Scope. To me, you can't beat great optics!! Good Luck, Stuart
Link Posted: 6/27/2003 1:09:12 AM EDT
yoyo on my target varmint guns I have 6to24. on my sniper I have a nightforce 3.5 to 15 x56 with30mm tubes I just bought a target ar15 bushmaster and I put a target varmint 4to16 x56 30mm tubes from millett with all that said it all depends on what you want to spend and how far you want to see your best bet is always a good variable range from a low to a midrange is always good that's my 2cents worth vinniedablade
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