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Posted: 6/5/2003 1:25:38 PM EDT
This is a criticism often leveled at the Reflex II.

But if you get a Triangle recticle ACOG or Compact ACOG, you get the same picture powered by the same two light sources, tritium plus ambient light piped in by fiberoptics.

So why no "washout" with the magnifying optics?
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 1:41:18 PM EDT
Because the ACOG has etched in reticle.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 1:46:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SMGLee: Because the ACOG has etched in reticle.
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Well, how does that make a difference? Technically.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 1:53:05 PM EDT
It make a difference because if the light source isn't bright enough you get a black reticle like a regular scope. The Optic is still usable. HOWEVER, when I got my TA50-2 I was playing around with it (you know clearing the house ;) ). I had a couple of occasions when using my tac light that the reticle washed out but it had the black triangle. Wierdest one was when I aimed at the TV (it was on) in the darkened room. Just enough light to power the reticle at a dim level, but when looking at the TV it would 'washout' the reticle completely at times. I don't plan on shooting many TVs in the dark but if you do you might want to consider a battery powered optic. ;)
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 2:03:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2003 2:05:12 PM EDT by Furet]
From other discussions on ACOG, if the lighting conditions cause the REFLEX to washout, I would assume that the same conditions would make the reticle of the ACOG turn black. This was mentionned with using a flashlight in a dark area. The difference being that with the REFLEX you see a reflection of the light source on a mirrored surface, and the target area can cause the reflection to vanish. The ACOG has a light source illuminating a specific spot on an etched surface. If you loose the light source, the etching still is visible, may me harder to target with but at least visible. This is not based on personal experience, but just my own understanding of these optics. Maybe someone can concure... [edited to add] Man I got to type these replies faster, Forest, your reply was not there when I made my reply up. But it does concure, thanks.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 2:15:23 PM EDT
Well, the fine amber lit reticles (TA01NSN) can wash out when the lighting is just right. Basically there is just enough tritium illumination that the reticle isn't black; but it is still not bright enough to see - so the reticle just kind of blends into the background and disappears. I have deliberately tried to duplicate this with the red donut on my TA11 but can't quite do it. By standing in a dark room and varying the brightness of the target until it is at the absolute worst contrast I can make the reticle tough to see; but I can't make it fade out completely - it either gets bright enough to use or goes black as brightness increases. I think the fiber optic makes the difference here. The TA11 has it and the TA01NSN doesn't.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 3:23:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2003 3:29:19 PM EDT by DevL]
Also remember new-arguys's demonstration that with the red reticles if you use a blue filter on the tac light your reticle wont black out or wash out. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=142762&w=searchPop[/url]
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 5:37:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL: Also remember new-arguys's demonstration that with the red reticles if you use a blue filter on the tac light your reticle wont black out or wash out. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=142762&w=searchPop[/url]
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That keeps your taclight from doing it but what about other ambient sources? The yellow sodium lamps used for street lighting for example? Thats one of the things that is mentioned giving the Reflex problems. Or is it simply that the Reflex only comes in amber and not red or green?
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:04:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 10:39:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2003 10:39:53 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
I went back and looked at the trijicon website and sure enough the full size ACOGs w/BAC only come with red recticles with the exception of the TA11F-A. And all the compacts can be ordered either way. Why did they think Amber would be a better color than red in the first place? And why did the US Army and Navy agree with them? The TA01NSN had to be made special as its the only TA01 with a amber cross, the others are red. And the RX01NSN was of course amber. They don't have sodium lights on military training grounds? Also does anyone have a reason why Trijicon thinks they have to have the Tripower setup and cant just make Red recticle Reflex II's? Does the red require more light than the amber?
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 11:05:33 PM EDT
TA01-NSN wash out? Nah, really? [img]http://home.attbi.com/~kisara/wsb/media/66713/site1043.jpg[/img] You do know that NSN stands for NO-SEE-NOTHING, right?
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 11:10:38 PM EDT
I think the military specified amber over red (and center only illum instead of full line) because it was more compatible with their night vision devices. Standard TA01 reticle supposedly "blooms" too much for NVDs. Ever shine a bright flashlight at a videocam? Same situation...
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 4:06:06 AM EDT
I've also seen reference to studies in Trijicon literature that the human eye is more sensitve to amber. I dunno, that red dot sure gets my attention faster than amber.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 7:26:12 AM EDT
I think the military specified amber over red (and center only illum instead of full line) because it was more compatible with their night vision devices. Standard TA01 reticle supposedly "blooms" too much for NVDs.
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Except with every night vision/ACOG combo I've seen the ACOG was mounted aft of the night vision. So it shouldn't cause trouble for the NVD.
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 10:12:45 AM EDT
NV GOGGLES
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 3:23:51 PM EDT
The BAC - that orange tube - really gathers a bunch more light than the Reflex II. I had a Reflex and traded it back in on an Aimpoint Comp ML. Typically I'm shooting from the shade - of a bench, tarp, or cover at targets lit by sunlight. Only when at the extremes of lighting does the ACOG retical go black - fine sharp lines that are better than even some varmint scopes.
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