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Posted: 4/28/2003 3:38:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2003 3:53:06 PM EDT by RogerC]
If I wanted to put a scope on my Bushmaster A2 20 incher, what are some recommendations?

I'd like to be able to take off a gopher's head at 3 hundred yards or more.

I'd like to be able to hit a gopher at 600 yards.

Also, what are good mounting options?

Thanks in advance.
Rog

Link Posted: 4/28/2003 3:55:22 PM EDT
Take off a gopher's head at 300 yards or more? Not on demand atleast. By luck maybe. 100-200 yards would be more realistic for on demand hits, 300+ and you'll be happy to just aim for the body and get a hit. Accurized AR15s with the scopes mounted directly to a flattop receiver for lower mounting make decent varmint rifles for 300+ yard varmint work but even they aren't going to be making head shots on demand. A magnification upwards of 20x will give decent results out to 200 yards allowing you to just about see what is on the mind of your target. But high magnification scopes are not without their compromises, in higher temperatures heat mirage can play hell with magnifications much above 10x. The magnification can be nice for identifying the little vermin at a distance but sometimes it's no more useful than a 9-12x scope. Scopes in the 3-9, 4.5-14, and 6.5-20 range all likely could serve well for varminting. Mounting optics to the carry handle can be a bit of a pain sometimes though, cheek rests can be uncomfortable and the height of the scope mounted above the bore can allow for more error or inaccuracy.
Link Posted: 4/28/2003 4:07:49 PM EDT
In Montana, I've seen many 300 head shots. Most were with .22-250's so I wouldn't think it would be that hard with an accurate AR-15. Heck, I've done it with a .22 at 150 yards. And a handgun at 50.
Link Posted: 4/28/2003 4:35:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2003 4:43:49 PM EDT by uglygun]
that's 22-250, and that's also with a gun that is likely more accurate than the average non-freefloated AR15. My accurized AR15 with it's more accurate handloads holds an average of 3/4 inch for 10 shots fired at 100 yards. Extend that angle of dispersion out to 300 yards and you are dealing with a group size diameter of roughly 2 1/4 inches, doesn't exactly create a situation for a high probability of a head shot. But it is certainly enough to rain on their parade all day if you are taking body shots. I've been shooting Ca. ground squirrels for almot 10 years now and often get chances to shoot the odd 300+ yard squirrel, under field conditions 100-200 yard headshots are just much more standard fare. My longest shot so far on a Ca. ground squirrel has been 400 yards, I've had several near hits at 500 and 550+ yards but way out there it almost has as much to do with luck as it has to do with skill. Bucking the wind with 55grn and lighter bullets is a bit harder to do with a 223Rem than it is with a 22-250, not to mention that some 223Rem twist rates might not allow a person to take advantage of the heavier 75grain bullets. Do head shots at long range happen? Sure. I just don't think that planning for them or expecting to land them is all that realistic beyond 200 yards or so. Heck, I don't favor shooting the things in the head for another very important reason. Varmint bullets work best when they have soft squishy material to react with, aim right for the "Crap factory" and let that little Vmax or Nosler Balistic Tip do it's dirty work on their innards. At 300 yards you can still hear the "pop" as the thing explodes into a red mist even if you are wearing hearing protection. At closer distances watching a squirrel fly 6 feet in the air and land 15 feet away from the point of impact, it's an awesome sight. Never seen that happen by taking headshots :) But I've seen it happen LOADS by aiming for the gut, not only does it make for more spectacular aerobatics but it is just so much more reasonable as ranges grow. My favored varmint scope is the Leuopld Long Range series, 30mm tube for additional windage and elevation adjustment along with the side focus parallax adjustment which will spoil you away from the objective adjustment rings.
Link Posted: 4/28/2003 4:45:37 PM EDT
If you're going to try and call your shot at 600 yards I would suggest something like a 6-20 or a 8-32 zoom range. Leupond, Nikon, and Burris all make optice that are better than most shooters can use. You are going to want a zoom because at shorter ranges a 16x or 20x fixed power scope is going to give you too small a field of view. Nove of these scopes are cheap, but you do get what you pay for. As to the accuracy of an AR, your 20" BM may not be up to the task of a called shot at 600 yards, or then again it might be. The 'X' ring of a 600 yard NRA highpower target is larger than a gopher's head, but a good shooter can hit it with the right rifle. You may need to spring for an h-bar match grade barel to get the kind of accuracy you're looking for.
Link Posted: 4/28/2003 5:14:58 PM EDT
Sometime in the future, I'll get a Match Grade, or Varmint barrel. I just don't want to have to buy another scope when I "upgrade". My BM would need a much better trigger to even attempt anything that long. My RRA has a sweet trigger. How 'bout some specifics? Prices? Best scope in these price ranges, for long range: Up to $400 $400-$600 $600-800 $800 and up Thanks
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 7:58:09 PM EDT
Roger, You may want to consider a Leupold 3.5 x 10 LR M1 with the Mil Dot reticle. I have one on my 16" DPMS Sweet Sixteen and 500 yard shots of 3 - 5 " are no problem. I also have the 3.5 x 10 LR M3 Mil Dot reticle on my .308 PSS and and usually get 1 - 2" groups at 500 yards with that setup. You don't really need more magnification unless you're trying to set up a varmit rig. Try D & R Sports for the best prices on these scopes (around $725). Don't get cheap on the rings and base, though, as they are part of the whole package. Also, don't forget to have the rings lapped. It's all incremental. The other necessary piece is a good trigger. The JARD is the best, by far. It's a single stage trigger, not two stage. I installed mine (and several others for friends)and it is set at one (1) pound and it is crisp and sweet. They are fairly easy to install (you may have to re-tap or chase out the hole for the grip screw), but if you've never taken the fire control parts out, you may want some help. Good luck!
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 6:08:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 45undude: Roger, You may want to consider a Leupold 3.5 x 10 LR M1 with the Mil Dot reticle. I have one on my 16" DPMS Sweet Sixteen and 500 yard shots of 3 - 5 " are no problem. I also have the 3.5 x 10 LR M3 Mil Dot reticle on my .308 PSS and and usually get 1 - 2" groups at 500 yards with that setup. You don't really need more magnification unless you're trying to set up a varmit rig. Try D & R Sports for the best prices on these scopes (around $725). Don't get cheap on the rings and base, though, as they are part of the whole package. Also, don't forget to have the rings lapped. It's all incremental. The other necessary piece is a good trigger. The JARD is the best, by far. It's a single stage trigger, not two stage. I installed mine (and several others for friends)and it is set at one (1) pound and it is crisp and sweet. They are fairly easy to install (you may have to re-tap or chase out the hole for the grip screw), but if you've never taken the fire control parts out, you may want some help. Good luck!
View Quote
What does a Leupold 3.5 x 10 LR M1 with the Mil Dot reticle scope cost?
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 9:16:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2003 9:16:46 AM EDT by Gunzilla]
Originally Posted By RogerC: Best scope in these price ranges, for long range:
View Quote
Rule number... um, what the crap is it... ? - Optics should cost about the same as the weapon they are mounted on.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 6:04:33 PM EDT
Roger C, Look into the new Leatherwood 6.5-20x50 Mil-Dot Uni-dial. It is a sweet scope with some new ideas in the optics world, and comes with a lifetime warranty. The price list on[url=www.hi-luxoptics.com/Catalog1.html]Leatherwood.com[/url] shows it at $437.50, but after I told SWFA of a guy selling them for $325 they dropped them clear to $209.95. That's half the listed price! Anyway, I have one coming to me right now. I will let you know what I think of it when it comes.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 2:46:10 PM EDT
Pretty good Proverb-Gunzilla. I have a Custom Shop Tasco 8x40x56 that I love. No longer manf. I think.
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 4:33:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2003 4:34:37 PM EDT by Green0]
Get a Krieger double kryoed barrel and Free Float it & you should no problem other than wind to thwart you in pursuit of your goal. The scope I would recommend is the SPringfield Armory .223 scope used with the 68grain MK bullets this should be a deadly combo. The Leupold M3 series isn't bad but I think the SA scopes are quicker and they are cheaper and have a accurate reticle as upposed to a 1/2MOA ajustment system. 1/2MOA = 1.5inches at 300yds meaning you could be about a ninch off at that range easily at the right ajustment. And parts of the reticle will range Praire Dogs and other varmints
Link Posted: 5/11/2003 11:44:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2003 11:45:33 AM EDT by wolfj2]
Leupold 8.5-25x 50mm M1 mil-dot in tactical matte (model 54690). Best price on the net $839.00 at TJ General Store. If you want outstanding glass with the capability to "reach out and touch something", check it out. I wouldn't trade mine for anything when it comes to long range.
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