Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 11/5/2002 8:34:00 AM EDT
Hahaha, this was pretty cool and fun. But it was hard to capture in the camera. I easily burned through a set of batteries for the light in all the time it took me to get a few pictures that came out looking remotely like what I see through the scope. These images aren't that great, but you will get the general idea.

As you know, the BAC AGOCs work with illuminated reticles. People who use illuminated reticle scopes and tactical weapon light are aware of the problems using the two together might create.

In a older post about "the best" general purpose optic;

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=139306&page=1

this subject recently came up. I have been using illuminated reticle ACOGs and Surefire lights for a long time. And I have notices a few very interesting things.

One is that the illumination is not too bright to be used in low to no lighting. It shows up well, but does not get so bright as to put a glare in what you see.

Two is that if you use a bright Surefire light, the reticle will black out. This is not the same as the "wash out" problem you experience with optics like the Trijicon Reflex. I have to say that again. This is not the same as wash out. The black out mean the reticle just turns solid black. This solid black reticle actually shows up quite well against the very bright area created by the Surefire light ahead of the scope. I have tried this indoors and out and in all conditions I have seen, the BAC still works well because of the two contrasting images; i.e. the brightly lit area ahead of the scope, and the blackened reticle of the ACOG.

In comes the blue filter. Surefire sells 4 different covers for their lights. An opaque solid black cover that will prevent light from exiting the system. A blue filter that will turn you bright white beam into a bright blue beam. A red filter that will turn your bright white beam into a bright red beam, and a infra red filter that will make the light invisible to anyone except those with NVD (haha, now that is cool!).

I wanted a filter for my light. I didn't think I would much need the black opaque cover, and I didn't have NVDs so even though the infra red filter is probably the coolest (!) I had no use for it. So my choices were set between red and blue. I use the TA31 ACOG which has a red reticle. I was unsure if the red filter would make the red reticle blend in too much. I still don't know if it will or not. But I figured I would just go blue and not have to worry about it. What I noticed was very cool! When you use the bright blue beam of the M900 with the blue filter, the red reticle of the ACOG shows up very vividly and is an awesome contrast. I don't really think it offers any quicker or easier use of the BAC over no filter, but it is pretty damn cool none the less.

Like I said, I was just sitting in a darkened room for about 45 minutes trying to get pictures that will resemble what I see. these pictures aren't really true representations, but they do somewhat simulate what I see when using the combination. I hope folks find this fun and useful. I know I did!

Here is what the illuminated red reticle looks like in darkness. Because there was no light, the shutter speed was set very slow. I was not able to hold the camera/rifle still for long enough to get a sharper image. Because of this, the reticle came out somewhat blurry. You can see how the top of it is a blur and the bottom is more crisp. When you use it, it is just the sharp, crisp red donut. Somewhat similar to the one you see on the bottom, but even sharper and clearer. Also, nt quite as bright as the camera is picking it up.


Here is the "blackout" of the reticle. The actual light is much brighter than the image is showing. I don't know squat about taking good pictures and my digi camera is not the best. But you can get the idea. A bright foreground and a dark donut contrast very well. I also want to ad that even though I am taking this picture against a white wall, the same principle applies when you use this outside and you are lighting up the woods, or any other environment really. I believe this is simply because the Surefire light is producing an amazing amount of light and it easily illuminates even naturally dark backgrounds like a tree line or dirt. I have tried it against those and many other backgrounds.


And finally, the blue filter. The same thing applies as the white foreground and black reticle, except the reticle stays red because the blue light is not as bright as the white. Pretty awesome.
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 8:50:05 AM EDT
Great post and great photos!!

You have too much fun.
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 9:49:54 AM EDT
new-arguy - great job

I will try that idea out

Kevin
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 6:04:41 PM EDT
Interesting...

I had tried it with the white light and noticed the 'blackout' effect, but had not tried it with a colored filter. So, on with the red filter and guess what - no reticle visible. It would show up against some dark colors, but a light colored background, bathed in red light, provided no contrast.

White or maybe blue seems the way to go.
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 8:29:05 PM EDT
Cool - great pictures too.

How do you people read those tiny little markings on the BDC?

Link Posted: 11/5/2002 9:14:57 PM EDT
The reticle and numbers are larger to the eye than they are appearing on the picture. They are no where near as large as the trijicon illustrations you see on theit www site and brochures, but, they are bigger than what you see above. I have never had trouble making them out.
Link Posted: 3/26/2003 4:09:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2003 8:29:49 PM EDT
Great work! Now, who's going to be the first to post a pic of a blue SureFire with an EoTech?
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 7:28:13 AM EDT
Neil, I'm just seeing this now myself. I like how your reticle turned black. However I found my Compact ACOG (TA50-2) just goes 'gray' with overwhelming light - there is litterally a washout. To say the least I was surprised as I had expected it to do the same.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 12:53:09 PM EDT
I will have to try the same with my Comp ACOG. I also just presume it will do the same, but have never actually tried it myself.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 1:51:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2003 2:01:46 PM EDT by dogguy]
Guys- I am fretting a little bit about my TA-31 in medium indoor lighting or dusk outside. I am having trouble finding the dot quickly when I don't have good overhead lighting or if I am in a dark room looking into a light room. The BAC feature is somewhat mitigated in these conditions. I am trying to get my hands on a blue lenscover to help me decide if that will solve the issue. I am concerned that target i.d. will be more difficult with the blue light. Now I think I might need a powered optic too. Get both, they say.... Will the ACOG co-witness an aimpoint? Yeah, thats what I need... dg
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 2:01:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dogguy: when I don't have good overhead lighting or if I am in a dark room looking into a light room. The BAC feature is somewhat mitigated in these conditions.
View Quote
IMHO for low light use with a light you can't beat a battery powered optic. The Aimpoint & EO Techs are not only faster in CQB, but their reticule are much easier to pick up when your tactical light is being used. I find the BAC scopes to be better when the light is low (either you're just using moonlight - or your using your Surefire at an extended range).
Now I think I might need a powered optic too. Get both, they say.... Will the ACOG co-witness an aimpoint? dg
View Quote
ACOG will not co-witness with anything. You can't co-witness with a magnified optic. I have an EO Tech and a Compact ACOG for my carbine. Lately I've been leaving the EO Tech on.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 2:03:35 PM EDT
Sorry Forest, was kidding about the co-witness thing, I really should not try comedy. dg
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 4:16:27 PM EDT
Nobody takes me seriously when I say it but the Docter Optic on top of the TA01nsn is a great set up. I have both an electronic red dot and a magnified optic on my rifle ALL THE TIME!
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 7:00:24 PM EDT
inkaybee, I believe ya man. I have this set up as well, AND FOR ME, it is better than the TA31. The TA31 is a great compromise, but having both the scope and red dot, FOR ME, is the way to go. The problem I have with the TA31 is in clearing darks buildings; just as dogguy mentioned, I loose the donut of death, albeit for only a second, but I do loose it when I illuminate the room with the Surefire. If I turned the light on and left it on, then problem solved. But this isn't the way it's done. The light is constantly being flickered or turned on and off. It doesn't work FOR ME. While some won't agree, the non magnified red dot is a tad better FOR ME, than the magnified BAC, for the short distance of building clearing. I am able to use BAC in this manner, and use it well, I just like the red dot a little better. It is easier FOR ME, to use the DR Optic for fast moving things, as I don't loose the scope, as much, as with the TA31 which requires me to have a more perfect cheek weld. This is a small point, I was doing fine with the TA31 in fast moving actions untill I used the Dr Optic. I would think we all could agree though that the Aimpoint/Eotech are a tad faster for room length CQB than the TA31. OK Ok, we won't all agree, yada yada yada. The TA31 is, FOR ME, a great scope, certainly the best stand alone scope out there. In using it, I have finally been able to use a normal scope with both eyes open (never could do that in all my years of shooting). This makes my using the TA01NSN much quicker. With the exception of room clearing, the TA31 is allmost perfect. I like it, and I'm going to keep it. Maybe I can practice with it enough that room length will get as fast as a red dot. There is a question in there somewhere. Please, this is all only my opinion, and I am not saying that any of this the definitive truth, or the way, or the light. To get back on topic, the blue filter has me intrigued. Will it light up the room? How bout a huge room, 50 X 50? My M900 will do this. Thanks.....Chad
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 7:25:06 PM EDT
Chad glad to hear you got your Docter/Acog combo. Sorry I was too paranoid to help ya out. BTW it sucks that one has to be afraid to have an opinion around here.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 6:09:21 AM EDT
Please, this is all only my opinion, and I am not saying that any of this the definitive truth, or the way, or the light.
View Quote
Heretic! I cast you out of the Church of ACOG! [:D] Haven't got to try the TA01NSN/Docter combo myself; but I agree with you on the rest. If you are doing room clearing/CQB, the BAC ACOGs can do the job and do it well; but the EOtechs and Aimpoints do it better.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 10:49:20 AM EDT
How does the blue filter effect the intensity of the SF? Does it just turn blue or does the filter actually diminish some brightness? Concert lights, for instance, are bright as hell but put a gel over them and the intensity is lowered quite a bit. Thinking about getting the filter since reading this. Great post!
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 2:00:10 PM EDT
Hey, regarding potential compact ACOG washout issues, I found this in my mailbox and thought I would share it. Its from Farnam's DTI quips.
12 Aug 03 On Sighting Systems for Serious Rifles, from a Friend and Student: "I am just back from a three-day tactics course with Louis Awerbuck. There were nine other students in attendance, and all were competent operators, with both rifle and pistol. All students brought ARs. All rifles, except mine, had coaxial flashlights mounted on the forend. All rifles, except mine, had some sort of trendy, high-tech optical sight. Optics included three Aimpoint M2s, [b]three AGOG Compacts[/b], two Trijicon Reflex, and one Tasco Dot. During the course, every one of them developed significant problems, significant enough to be life-threatening in a real fight. As soon as it got dark, [b]ACOGs and Reflexs washed out to the point of impotence with white light usage[/b]. The stark background light (created by the rifle's own white light illumination) washed out the amber pyramids (several optics were thereupon immediately and unceremoniously jettisoned). One rifle (a fancy/custom AR with a tubular, aluminum forend) did not have back-up irons, so the shooter contemptuously discarded it, relying solely on his handgun from that point forward. One Aimpoint M2 went dead (battery) at the start of the night session, even though the battery was okay when checked earlier in the day. Another student was mystified when his optic didn't work. He realized (too late) that he forgot to remove the lens cap and turn on the switch to the ‘on' position! In contrast, I had no disadvantage with my iron sights under any environmental condition or distance, out to our maximum of one hundred meters. I won the man-on-man challenge and was one of the few to hit consistently at all ranges. I used the small aperture at fifty meters and greater, and the large one at twenty-five meters and in. Between twenty-five and fifty meters, either one worked." Lesson: Serious, fighting rifles need iron sights, and serious riflemen need to know how to use them. The only optical sight I recommend for a serious rifle is a plain-vanilla scout scope (no batteries). Any optic that requires batteries is a nonstarter, as is any optic that is high profile, fragile, and/or temperamental. These "operators" need to do no-nonsense testing before placing this competition/kiddy trash into serious service.
View Quote
I'd have to say that this contradicts my own experience with ACOGs; but I haven't used the compacts in that situation. I can't imagine why they would be any different from the full-sized models though.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 2:55:42 PM EDT
Problem Solved: [img]http://www.boomspeed.com/kisara/KisaraVanillaIce.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 3:28:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 5:17:54 PM EDT
No problem inkaybee. Your positive comments on the combo here pushed me over the edge. Roberts, NOOOOOOO I shall not be banished. If you ever get a chance, try out the combo. Everybody that sees it thinks it's great due to the small size and dual purposbility. Yea, that's my word. Kisara, I am pretty sure I saw an operator with a half ounce once, I think the one ounce is just plain overkill. But hey, it's your gun, I don't shoot in your muffs. Neil, am looking forward to some guidance with the big room question that was asked more succinctly by Horik. Thanks.....Chad
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 8:37:08 PM EDT
Airsoft replica, for those SMGlee types: [img]http://www.boomspeed.com/kisara/AirsoftVanilla.jpg[/img] Looses taste in dusk conditions.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 8:42:59 PM EDT
Dude, you got too much time on your hands.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 9:25:12 PM EDT
Blue filter cuts the intensity of the light. I find that on a 3 cell light like the M900 I have my filter on, or a M96xx unit, it is still sufficient top light up a medium size room. The light is no where near as bright or stunning, but it does fill spaces. I have taken 2 or three classes with my AR + TA31. I have never, ever had any such issues. At the last class, I used the TA31 + M900 with turbo head. This puts out some serious light for those of you who have not used it. There have been others at the classes who have had problems with their gear. It happens a lot. I have noticed many people show up to a class with items they JUST purchased and have NEVER used before. Still others have not used their gear outside of a bench/range environment. Classes like these are a great way to show you what you need to work on. Sometimes it is your gear. Sometimes its just the way you have your gear set up,. But many, MANY times problems can EASILY be traced back to "USER ERROR"! This has been evident to me with things as simple manipulating the controls on your firearm, to working the hi-tech gear on your rig. If you are not familiar with it and havent worked with it enough to know what to do without putting much thought into it, you are going to have problems. Class environments have you thinking about too many other issues to be worrying about how or when to take the lenses off your optic. In my opinion, the lesson learned from the class review above is as follows Lesson: Serious, fighting rifles need iron sights, and serious riflemen need to know how to use them and any other optical system they choose. The only optical sight I recommend for a serious rifle is one that has been seriously prooven in battle. Loose any optic that is fragile, and/or temperamental. These "operators" need to do no-nonsense testing before placing this competition/kiddy trash into serious service. To say that Aimpoint, ACOGs and heck, even the Reflex is competition/kiddie trash is, quite simply, a load of crap. This is my opinion, just as that is his. But this simple class example of "operators" does not overshadow years and years of real world use of the many tens of thousands of Aimpoint, ACOGs, Reflexs and EoTechs in use by real operators (who love them) in real life or death situations. Im sorry to get off into a rant.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 11:36:37 AM EDT
Neil (I know you don't care, but I always forget if this is the correct spelling), are you saying you have not noticed the loss of the donut when it transitions from total dark to Surefire 125 lumen, or greater, brightness? I admit it's not a huge deal, and it is only a sec, but I noticed it the first time I tried it. Thanks.....Chad
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 9:04:43 PM EDT
I'll have to check on this again, but put it this way, the fact that I am even having to check indicates tome that I have never had the problem. I always run the HOLA's on my surefire's so Im putting out at least 225 lumens. I dont know if more light helps decrease the problem at all, but when I was doing this very test so many months ago, what I noticed was this. The extreme bright light of the Surefire contrasted the black reticle of the optic enough so that it was easy to make out quickly. I will check this out again and see if it is problematic for me, but as I mentioned, I have never had a problem in any of the night classes I have been to or any of the practicing I have done on my own.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 9:36:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2003 7:30:31 AM EDT by Forest]
I want to make some notations on my TA50-2 comments. At the Giles Stock 'night fighting' class I found the sight reticule would 'gray out'. Conditions I did not notice at the general night shoot in the PFDC Carbine 1 class. About an hour ago I was playing with the optic (with a 125 Lumen Surefire) running around the basement to determine why. It seems this condition occurs only under a set of circumstances - In a certain illumination range and specific background colors. At distances around 10-15 feet against flat brown (cardboard box - similar in color to the brown camo targets from Gunsite that we used), flat black (my kneepads were the target), and at 15-20 feet against a silvery background. Other backgrounds/distances either gave me an amber triangle or a black/dark gray reticule. I still prefer the red-dot type optic for use with lights or indoors, as I can set the reticle so 'wash-out' is NEVER an issue. I'll agree with the Neil and say that some strange doings at the course were all the optics failed. The two 3 day courses I went to there were no serious issus. Heck the only one I noted was with the Compact ACOG. None of the Aimpoints nor ACOGs had an issue and Fight4YourRights didn't have any problems with his Reflex II. Both instructors highly recommend the Aimpoint M2. In both courses we ran a test to see how far back we could shoot at night with various optics (with & without a light). In every case the guys with irons had to stop shooting first, then the guys with the red-dots, Those of us with tritium powered scopes always had the range advantage. Matter of fact Pete (instructor of the Basic Carbine couse) has run the Gunsite nighttime 'jungle course' without using his light at all - thanks to the light gathering capability and glowing reticle of his ELCAN.
Link Posted: 8/14/2003 3:41:10 AM EDT
Eeewww! Elcan... yuk! [devil]
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 7:14:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2003 7:14:55 AM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]
Caveat: I know zip about flashlights
I always run the HOLA's on my surefire's so Im putting out at least 225 lumens. I dont know if more light helps decrease the problem at all, but when I was doing this very test so many months ago, what I noticed was this. The extreme bright light of the Surefire contrasted the black reticle of the optic enough so that it was easy to make out quickly.
View Quote
I'm running a Surefire G2 (65 lumens) and at indoor distances, 65 lumens is enough that you get excellent bright contrast to spot the black reticle (even against black backgrounds).
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 7:42:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2003 7:44:12 AM EDT by TheRicker]
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 5:49:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/15/2003 5:51:32 PM EDT by El_Roto]
If you want a black DoD, put tape over the fiber-optic tube. This works until it's dark enough for the tritium lamp to become effective. What good is this info? Hell, I don't know...but I just figured it out and by God I had to post it somewhere! [:D]
Top Top