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Posted: 2/4/2019 10:23:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's referring to the enhanced springs used in the USGI Tan Follower, Brownells Tan Follower and Surefeed E2 Mags. While they will last longer, IMO, the standard springs are more than adequate. |
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Posted: 2/4/2019 11:07:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I really don’t have any such “data”. But it’s intresting that an aftermarket follower was offered to Uncle Sam. What was the offer, was it free or did they propose selling it? My comment in the previous post was about the military “stealing” a design that was an upgrade to their upgrade. The military was the first to develop an upgrade to the standard followers ( the black followers were upgraded to the green followers). When the green followers came out there were hundreds of post on this forum how they were the greatest thing ever and that they solved all the problems of the original black followers. Then commercial followers came out that improved on the improvements. Then the military came out with its final version which was the tan follower and spring combination. It’s kind of hard to claim the army copied something when they were the first to make an improved product. The Army stuck with Black followers only until a problem was ID's with the last rds of the mag nosediving in full auto and the different Ogive of the SS109 bullet in the M855 ball rd. the Green followers were starting to be issues in the mid 80's and were not a true Anti tilt. the Tan follower mags the Army (Picatinny) designed came out in around 07 well after Magpul had developed the Anti tilt follower (2004) for US GI mags... the first PMAG came out in 07 as well as the GI enhanced with the Tan follower. That is why I say the Army copied Magpul because the tan follower did not exist in 2004 and it's quite the coincidence that the tan follower that Picatinny came up with, looked almost identical... 3 years later... History of the USGI magazine |
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Posted: 2/5/2019 5:57:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you disassemble a tan follower magazine you will see that the spring “ locks” onto the follower. This helps keep it from tilting. The old spring connects onto the follower in only the area the spring goes through the hole which can act as a pivot. The new spring and tan follower are designed to work together and are totally a new and unique design. That being said, as far as I know the standard GI spring with anti tilt follower works absolutely fine. |
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Posted: 2/5/2019 10:48:35 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand that. That being said, as far as I know the standard GI spring with anti tilt follower works absolutely fine. |
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Posted: 2/5/2019 10:54:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Actually most spring/ followers work fine. All of the improved followers have Been incremental improvements. Back in the early 2000s the green followers were all the rage. Everyone raved about how you just absolutely had to have them. 
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Posted: 2/5/2019 11:06:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which is what Magpul said in 2004 when they created there upgraded non tilt follower, that there was little left to improve on the current GI mag, so they came out with the PMAG on 07.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Actually most spring/ followers work fine. All of the improved followers have Been incremental improvements. Back in the early 2000s the green followers were all the rage. Everyone raved about how you just absolutely had to have them. |
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Posted: 2/5/2019 11:13:45 PM EDT
[#7]
From my experience, USGI type Mags with Magpul or anti tilt followers are every but as reliable as PMags.
That said, I do recognize that PMags do offer advantages. They can be loaded to full capacity and seat easier on a closed bolt and can handle certain rough abuse better than Aluminum. They are also a little easier to load. The cons are they are made of plastic and reportedly don't last as long as un abused Aluminum Mags. |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 12:00:15 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: And they were wrong, they had a very short sighted approach by just concentrating on the follower and mag body. The Spring is arguably the most important part, and they've never improved it. USGI did. |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 9:06:15 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Marine Corp's adoption of the Gen 3 PMAG would say you are wrong...that magazine went thru the wringer and came out on top... |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 9:32:10 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Henderson Defense's tests were even more of a wringer, and the tan GI mags came out on top. Also, the difference in reliability between the tan follower GI mags and the Pmags in the marine's on testing was negligible, and only a difference with M855A1 out of 14.5" carbine guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The Marine Corp's adoption of the Gen 3 PMAG would say you are wrong...that magazine went thru the wringer and came out on top... Magpul did test springs and didn't find any reason to use a different one. |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 10:27:06 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Henderson Defense didn't test shit. They use mags at a bullethose indoor range. Magpul did test springs and didn't find any reason to use a different one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: The Marine Corp's adoption of the Gen 3 PMAG would say you are wrong...that magazine went thru the wringer and came out on top... Magpul did test springs and didn't find any reason to use a different one. Jesus. Give it a rest. Buy/use the mags that blow your skirt up and stop with the propaganda. Look at the mags used downrange by SF groups who CHOOSE THEIR GEAR. Plenty of USGI AND PMAGS in use. |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 12:10:31 PM EDT
[#12]
I'm tired of rehashing this over and over. Everybody knows Thermold is the best magazine. /thread
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Posted: 2/6/2019 12:28:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm tired of rehashing this over and over. Everybody knows Thermold is the best magazine. /thread  CD |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 12:31:56 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's right, as when your buried in snow, you can use them as fuel for the fire CD Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm tired of rehashing this over and over. Everybody knows Thermold is the best magazine. /thread CD  
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Posted: 2/6/2019 12:54:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Magpul did test springs and didn't find any reason to use a different one. It makes perfect sense. That and AFAIK, there was never a problem with how standard springs attach to followers. Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong? |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 1:00:25 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's right, as when your buried in snow, you can use them as fuel for the fire CD
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Posted: 2/6/2019 2:20:24 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: I believe Magpul stated that they use the standard springs for compatability purposes with USGI. It makes perfect sense. That and AFAIK, there was never a problem with how standard springs attach to followers. Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong? and If I had to chose test criteria between the Marines and Henderson defense.... We'll of course I'm going to side with a Gun rental company...
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Posted: 2/6/2019 2:52:06 PM EDT
[#18]
Even the Marine's on test on magazine showed the tan follower mags to be neck and neck with the Pmags. The Pmags had a slight edge for 14.5" carbine gassed guns when firing M855A1 that was statistically insignificant.
For general ammo reliability, there is for all intents and purposes no difference. |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 3:14:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even the Marine's on test on magazine showed the tan follower mags to be neck and neck with the Pmags. The Pmags had a slight edge for 14.5" carbine gassed guns when firing M855A1 that was statistically insignificant. For general ammo reliability, there is for all intents and purposes no difference. |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 3:15:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Henderson Defense's tests were even more of a wringer, and the tan GI mags came out on top. Also, the difference in reliability between the tan follower GI mags and the Pmags in the marine's on testing was negligible, and only a difference with M855A1 out of 14.5" carbine guns. Henderson=wear test. Marines=environmental abuse. A functional gi mag is a good mag but if I have to make a plate carrier magazine sandwich, I think the PMags will win that competition. Aluminum dents. |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 7:25:28 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Even the Marine's on test on magazine showed the tan follower mags to be neck and neck with the Pmags. The Pmags had a slight edge for 14.5" carbine gassed guns when firing M855A1 that was statistically insignificant. For general ammo reliability, there is for all intents and purposes no difference. |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 8:16:58 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree, which is why the "enhanced" spring the Army created was not really an enhancement, at least not one that was quantifiable... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Even the Marine's on test on magazine showed the tan follower mags to be neck and neck with the Pmags. The Pmags had a slight edge for 14.5" carbine gassed guns when firing M855A1 that was statistically insignificant. For general ammo reliability, there is for all intents and purposes no difference. Also, I imagine they are more reliable than other USGI spring / follower combinations, but those were not tested so we don't have that data. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As has been mentioned, the spring / follower are designed to work together to be more anti tilt than just a new follower design on the old USGI spring alone. I would suspect the system is more reliable than say a magpul USGI follower and the old standard spring. |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 8:22:27 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is quantifiable in terms of longevity, which the Marines are unable to demonstrate on their budget / time guidelines but operations like Henderson Defense can. Also, I imagine they are more reliable than other USGI spring / follower combinations, but those were not tested so we don't have that data. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As has been mentioned, the spring / follower are designed to work together to be more anti tilt than just a new follower design on the old USGI spring alone. I would suspect the system is more reliable than say a magpul USGI follower and the old standard spring. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Even the Marine's on test on magazine showed the tan follower mags to be neck and neck with the Pmags. The Pmags had a slight edge for 14.5" carbine gassed guns when firing M855A1 that was statistically insignificant. For general ammo reliability, there is for all intents and purposes no difference. Also, I imagine they are more reliable than other USGI spring / follower combinations, but those were not tested so we don't have that data. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As has been mentioned, the spring / follower are designed to work together to be more anti tilt than just a new follower design on the old USGI spring alone. I would suspect the system is more reliable than say a magpul USGI follower and the old standard spring. |
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Posted: 2/6/2019 8:59:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Or not. A stiffer spring doesn't necessarily last longer.
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Posted: 2/6/2019 11:11:38 PM EDT
[#25]
The spring isn't stiffer.
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Posted: 2/6/2019 11:22:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Then why would it last longer and how would it be any improvement?
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Posted: 2/7/2019 12:54:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Army was and never has been big on the "Not invented here" Syndrome... The M60 GPMG is a perfect example.. The Army stuck with Black followers only until a problem was ID's with the last rds of the mag nosediving in full auto and the different Ogive of the SS109 bullet in the M855 ball rd. the Green followers were starting to be issues in the mid 80's and were not a true Anti tilt. the Tan follower mags the Army (Picatinny) designed came out in around 07 well after Magpul had developed the Anti tilt follower (2004) for US GI mags... the first PMAG came out in 07 as well as the GI enhanced with the Tan follower. That is why I say the Army copied Magpul because the tan follower did not exist in 2004 and it's quite the coincidence that the tan follower that Picatinny came up with, looked almost identical... 3 years later... History of the USGI magazine |
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Posted: 2/7/2019 8:46:08 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: I have just a touch of problem with that video's time line. I entered the USMC in 1987 and the only M16 I ever was issued was the A2. I never once over the 4 years I had active (infantry) ever once encountered a green follower. I collect black follower mags and the earliest dated mag I have is 7-91 and it has the black follower. I got out of the .mil for a few years and went back in during 1996, the following 16 years I had in the ArNG, I never saw a green follower until around 2001ish. I guess I can say with certainty that as of July of 1991 Okay was still supplying mages with black followers.
Back then, the Corps was not really known for issuing you state of the art new gear....The old "Make do with what you have" mantra |
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Posted: 2/7/2019 8:46:45 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then why would it last longer and how would it be any improvement? |
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Posted: 2/7/2019 9:45:00 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact that you were in the Marines is probably why you never saw them....Surprised you were not still getting Garand clips issued to you....
Back then, the Corps was not really known for issuing you state of the art new gear....The old "Make do with what you have" mantra |
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Posted: 2/7/2019 11:11:52 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Design / engineering. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Then why would it last longer and how would it be any improvement? I know from an uncalibrated finger they feel stiffer than the original springs. FWIW, I've NEVER worn out any AR mag spring. |
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Posted: 2/7/2019 11:57:46 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe Magpul stated that they use the standard springs for compatability purposes with USGI. It makes perfect sense. That and AFAIK, there was never a problem with how standard springs attach to followers. Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong? Regarding the way the spring attaches to the follower I don’t think there was anything wrong with it, the new way seems to be better because it locks the follower and spring together. It is nice in theory but is it really better? I don’t know. Many of my magazines still have black followers and work perfectly fine for my needs. I don’t worry about such trivial things. |
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Posted: 2/8/2019 11:00:01 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There was never much of a problem with anything about the majority of magazines. Most of the improvements especially the ones sold in the civilian market are designed and marketed to convince buyers that they just have to have that new thing. The companies that make golfing equipment are masters of this. The gun and accessory companies do it too on a more amateur level. Regarding the way the spring attaches to the follower I don’t think there was anything wrong with it, the new way seems to be better because it locks the follower and spring together. It is nice in theory but is it really better? I don’t know. Many of my magazines still have black followers and work perfectly fine for my needs. I don’t worry about such trivial things. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I believe Magpul stated that they use the standard springs for compatability purposes with USGI. It makes perfect sense. That and AFAIK, there was never a problem with how standard springs attach to followers. Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong? Regarding the way the spring attaches to the follower I don’t think there was anything wrong with it, the new way seems to be better because it locks the follower and spring together. It is nice in theory but is it really better? I don’t know. Many of my magazines still have black followers and work perfectly fine for my needs. I don’t worry about such trivial things. The anti-tilt follower is a definite improvement over the green. |
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Posted: 2/8/2019 3:10:17 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't see how the follower locking to the spring makes a difference either way. |
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Posted: 2/8/2019 9:56:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't see how the follower locking to the spring makes a difference either way. |
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Posted: 2/9/2019 1:32:47 AM EDT
[#36]
Anything the spring / follower combination would do in terms of preventing tilt is going to be far exceeded by the inch-long legs at the front and rear of the follower that ride against the spine of the magazine. I suspect that the change in spring design is intended to improve the way the spring "stacks" at it compresses to prevent any binding or overlapping of the coils.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 2/9/2019 8:56:35 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anything the spring / follower combination would do in terms of preventing tilt is going to be far exceeded by the inch-long legs at the front and rear of the follower that ride against the spine of the magazine. I suspect that the change in spring design is intended to improve the way the spring "stacks" at it compresses to prevent any binding or overlapping of the coils. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27888/IMG_0507_JPG-838924.JPG |
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Posted: 2/9/2019 9:26:00 AM EDT
[#38]
Pmags don’t double-stack well in chest rigs, but double stacking isn’t always ideal anyhow.
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Posted: 2/9/2019 9:56:24 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess you have to have one in your hands but it makes it theoretically less likely to tilt. The spring and follower lock together as a unit. The way the older followers attach the follower can pivot on the spring and if it can pivot it can tilt. The mantra worshipped on this forum is “ no tilt”. There are only so many ways you can accomplish this which is why all the followers after the green followers are just copies and modifications of the “ let’s make the legs bigger and longer” idea. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I don't see how the follower locking to the spring makes a difference either way. |
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Posted: 2/9/2019 10:30:34 AM EDT
[#40]
All my purchased mags are Magpul.
I have a few "hand me down" mags from my brother from his time in the Marines. I do plan to pick up a few Lancers when I see a good deal. I just like having plenty on hand. |
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Posted: 2/9/2019 12:23:19 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not exactly. My A2s were pretty new, and about 2/3rds of my mags were as well. Even in the USMC the mags is expendable. |
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Posted: 2/9/2019 12:54:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's right, as when your buried in snow, you can use them as fuel for the fire CD Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm tired of rehashing this over and over. Everybody knows Thermold is the best magazine. /thread CD |
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Posted: 2/9/2019 1:10:26 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't understand why they didn't re engineer the USGI 30 round mag to give it a little extra room? They had several decades to do it? Remember.... there is a very fine line between to much compressed room and not enough. To much space, and a fully loaded 30rd mag, when dropped and impacting on the floor plate, will have a greatly increased tendency to dump / spit rounds in a crazy fashion . |
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Posted: 2/9/2019 1:20:57 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anything the spring / follower combination would do in terms of preventing tilt is going to be far exceeded by the inch-long legs at the front and rear of the follower that ride against the spine of the magazine. I suspect that the change in spring design is intended to improve the way the spring "stacks" at it compresses to prevent any binding or overlapping of the coils. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27888/IMG_0507_JPG-838924.JPG |
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Posted: 2/9/2019 1:34:43 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: @Italianstallion Remember.... there is a very fine line between to much compressed room and not enough. To much space, and a fully loaded 30rd mag, when dropped and impacting on the floor plate, will have a greatly increased tendency to dump / spit rounds in a crazy fashion . How it loads inside a Colt with the bolt closed was most likely never a thought... Being Engineers there thinking..."Bolt holds open on an empty mag...So why would anyone need to insert a full mag on a closed bolt..." ..
End users are like...."I just blew thru half a mag....I'm going to put in a fresh 3o rounder before my next assault...Fuck, I really need to smack this to get it to lock in...Fuck it, I'll download by 1or 2...There, way better." After that's its "Hey..FNG...don't load 3o in that mag" "28 makes it much easier when your shittin your pants to top off a partial" Me personally, I would rather have the space for compression... Loading mags.... I count rds... PCI's
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Posted: 2/9/2019 4:19:27 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Italianstallion Remember.... there is a very fine line between to much compressed room and not enough. To much space, and a fully loaded 30rd mag, when dropped and impacting on the floor plate, will have a greatly increased tendency to dump / spit rounds in a crazy fashion . |
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Posted: 2/9/2019 8:56:20 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All my purchased mags are Magpul. I have a few "hand me down" mags from my brother from his time in the Marines. I do plan to pick up a few Lancers when I see a good deal. I just like having plenty on hand. |
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Posted: 2/14/2019 1:08:40 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: New new or new old stock like rotated out of war stock and issued? I just realized that I have 5 generations of OKay mags now. Undated black follower, dated black follower, dated green follower, dated tan follower, dated magpul follower. Guess I need to get one of the E2s
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Posted: 3/6/2019 1:33:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I posted this photo comparison on another forum last year. I know others are fans of D&H mags and haven’t had any issues with them, but I personally don’t consider them “USGI” - more like “USGI style” - and would rather spend the extra few bucks for Okay mags. Apologies for the fuzzy photos - it was hard to focus on the gray magazine bodies in my poor kitchen lighting. Here's a '12 production D&H (Noveske branded) on the top with a '11 production Okay below. Note the ripples in the D&H spine where it's pinched in at the weld spots, while the Okay has a smooth spine with no gap showing. The Okay seams actually appear to be sealed somehow - not sure if that’s an effect of the dry lube finish: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27888/2982FE82-84DF-4B18-B41E-03CE9A63F892_jpeg-821776.JPG Top of the rear and front spine seams. Note that this expensive Noveske-branded mag came with an older green follower, and the spring seems lower quality also (I'm no expert on spring materials, but it's kind of chalky in appearance). I know PSA mags come with Magpul followers. I bought a few Noveske mags when I was ordering some other things from their website because I was curious who they were made by. They turned out to have the D&H cage code on the body with the Noveske cage code on the floor plate (for double the price of the PSA version): https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27888/649CDAE2-C465-4D56-A771-50ED5C8113DC_jpeg-821777.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27888/DBA8003A-A030-47A7-8305-5FD3E14A1440_jpeg-821778.JPG Again, I don't really doubt that these D&H mags will hold up ok, but if I'm going to buy aluminum mags, I'm going to stick with the ones that seem to be better quality to me. That's just where I'd rather spend my money. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
D@H works fine They supply mags to foreign militaries. That said, OKAY seems to pay slightly more attention to detail and more rigourously tests their mags. Apologies for the fuzzy photos - it was hard to focus on the gray magazine bodies in my poor kitchen lighting. Here's a '12 production D&H (Noveske branded) on the top with a '11 production Okay below. Note the ripples in the D&H spine where it's pinched in at the weld spots, while the Okay has a smooth spine with no gap showing. The Okay seams actually appear to be sealed somehow - not sure if that’s an effect of the dry lube finish: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27888/2982FE82-84DF-4B18-B41E-03CE9A63F892_jpeg-821776.JPG Top of the rear and front spine seams. Note that this expensive Noveske-branded mag came with an older green follower, and the spring seems lower quality also (I'm no expert on spring materials, but it's kind of chalky in appearance). I know PSA mags come with Magpul followers. I bought a few Noveske mags when I was ordering some other things from their website because I was curious who they were made by. They turned out to have the D&H cage code on the body with the Noveske cage code on the floor plate (for double the price of the PSA version): https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27888/649CDAE2-C465-4D56-A771-50ED5C8113DC_jpeg-821777.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27888/DBA8003A-A030-47A7-8305-5FD3E14A1440_jpeg-821778.JPG Again, I don't really doubt that these D&H mags will hold up ok, but if I'm going to buy aluminum mags, I'm going to stick with the ones that seem to be better quality to me. That's just where I'd rather spend my money. My D&H are the PSA labeled black ones and they're fine as far as the seems go. In fact they look better than the Brownells ones I have from when Brownell was a .gov contractor for "real" USGI mags. In a couple of years another company will get the contract and Okay won't be USGI mags anymore either and there'll be another "must have, real USGI" magazine. It's all semantics really...... |
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Posted: 3/6/2019 3:14:49 PM EDT
[#50]
I like D@H Mags but the fact is that they don't test their mags like Okay Does.
It was just revealed in the E2 thread that Okay Tests their mags 3X before shipping. |
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