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Posted: 1/13/2006 4:12:28 PM EDT
During some LE tactical training during the past couple weeks I did an evaluation of the new Creative Products 30 round magazine and LMT 10.5 inch barrelled upper. Four magazines were obtainied through Creative Products and 12 were purchased from the Equipment Exchange board. The LMT uppers were obtained through a local LE dealer. The weapons used in tactical training were Colt M16A1 lowers fitted with either Colt or DPMS 14.5 inch barrel uppers and RRA collapsible stocks. We were also evaluating two LMT 10 inch barrelled uppers for possible use by our tactical team. The LMT uppers were mated with Colt M16A1 lowers also. The CP mags had a mix of green anti-tilt and Magpul gray anti-tilt followers with both chrome silicon and stainless springs. Ammo used was a mix of Winchester Q3131A, Winchester and Federal 55 grain SP, and Federal EA223 55 grain.

The mags seemed to be of excellent quality with good fit and finish. I saw no issues with welds, seams, or visible quality control issues. All of the mags fit well, had good lockup with the mag catch, and dropped free. A total of 6,500 rounds were fired in both semi and full-auto with no jams or failures. The stock LMT 10.5 inch uppers were put through 1000 rounds each in 3 range sessions ( with CP mags ) and also had no failures.

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Link Posted: 1/14/2006 1:52:40 PM EDT
Sounds like you gave the CP mags quite a workout, thanks for posting!
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 5:07:04 PM EDT
Thanks for the information.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:02:43 PM EDT
good deal !
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:47:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 10:52:27 PM EDT by Green0]
My thought is WHO in the hell would believe no malfs in 6500 rds?

The first thing that comes to my mind is "not possible". Unless you clean your AR every 180rds that's hard to believe.

The mags are obviously a good product but I've never experienced that kind of reliability with a Colt rifle or other.

The one thing I could see a stainless mag doing is stopping the problem of dented feed lips from dropping armor on cement. By that I mean laying down quickly. Not literally dropping it. The case rims dent aluminum and if you don't notice it your rifle isn't going to reliably strip rounds. Also bent feed lips just stop aluminum dead in it's tracks and are harder to diagnose by just looking at the mags; and the added rigidity of stainless might help prevent that.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 4:36:12 AM EDT
6,500 rounds, to include FA, through a 10" upper w/o any malfunctions...nice!
Now that's a nice torture test for sure.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 4:42:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Green0:
My thought is WHO in the hell would believe no malfs in 6500 rds?

The first thing that comes to my mind is "not possible". Unless you clean your AR every 180rds that's hard to believe.

The mags are obviously a good product but I've never experienced that kind of reliability with a Colt rifle or other.

The one thing I could see a stainless mag doing is stopping the problem of dented feed lips from dropping armor on cement. By that I mean laying down quickly. Not literally dropping it. The case rims dent aluminum and if you don't notice it your rifle isn't going to reliably strip rounds. Also bent feed lips just stop aluminum dead in it's tracks and are harder to diagnose by just looking at the mags; and the added rigidity of stainless might help prevent that.







Yes your highness.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 5:31:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Green0:
My thought is WHO in the hell would believe no malfs in 6500 rds? As the original post states, it was multiple department issue Colt M16/M4 weapons fired over a period of 3 weeks during tactical team training. Not one M16 firing 6500 rounds continuously without cleaning.

The first thing that comes to my mind is "not possible". Unless you clean your AR every 180rds that's hard to believe. The weapons were cleaned at the end of each range session. If any of our dept M16's consistently began jamming after 6 magazines ( 180 rounds ) I would pull them from service for repair. My experience is about 400 to 600 rounds fired without cleaning typical before beginning to experience problems from a properly maintained/lubricated weapon. 2 years ago I instructed a select fire M16/M4 operator class for 12 tactical team troopers issued new Colt M4's ( R0977) with Colt/Okay mags. 15,000 rounds fired in the week long class with 3 jams. And yes they cleaned the weapons regularly, but with way more than 180 rounds fired before each cleaning.

The mags are obviously a good product but I've never experienced that kind of reliability with a Colt rifle or other. All the Dept weapons are Colts but I have experienced good reliability even when using the 25 year old GI 30 rd mags we got from the military. Your experience obviously differs.

The one thing I could see a stainless mag doing is stopping the problem of dented feed lips from dropping armor on cement. By that I mean laying down quickly. Not literally dropping it. The case rims dent aluminum and if you don't notice it your rifle isn't going to reliably strip rounds. Also bent feed lips just stop aluminum dead in it's tracks and are harder to diagnose by just looking at the mags; and the added rigidity of stainless might help prevent that.

The mags tested were the aluminum Mags not the stainless.

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Link Posted: 1/15/2006 7:07:49 AM EDT


Originally Posted By Eric:
6,500 rounds, to include FA, through a 10" upper w/o any malfunctions...nice!
Now that's a nice torture test for sure.



Hi Eric,
The 6500 round count was the total for all the shooting we did with the CP mags through all the SWAT weapons including the 2 LMT test uppers. Of the 6500 rds, we ran 1000 rds through each of the LMT's during the three range sessions so far, with cleaning at the end of each day. I was pretty surprised at the accuracy and reliability of the little shorty. They were loud as hell though.

Full-Auto

Link Posted: 1/15/2006 4:34:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 10:21:33 AM EDT by Green0]
I wish I bought parts wherever you do.

My guns even the issued Colts were never anywhere close to that reliable.

My LMT 10.5 experience is with a enhanced carrier-- never got through a full mag without a problem. 18rounds was the longest burst without a malf. [I realize that combination is inherintly flawed but the point is that guns are far more likely not to run flawlessly than to run flawlessly for extended periods of time.]

I now have a CMMG with a std bolt/BC and haven't gotten out to shoot it yet.

I see way too many magazine reviews [as in reviews in magazines] with over a thousand rounds fired and "no malfunctions" to believe them. Maybe your one sample is true.

The gov't crane testing for 10.3inch uppers was approx avg. 10 malfs per thousand rounds over a 10,000 rd sample cleaned every 300 rds with five uppers. And they obviously thought that was good enough to go with for std issue so evidently my crap experience with avg 1-2 malfs per 300-600 rounds isn't too abnormal.

Of course I guess that could be due to magazines being slightly out of spec used by both me and in those tests-- it could be but why they feed 27 rounds and have an issue with one doesn't really support that.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:19:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 2:24:08 PM EDT by Hotgun]
No surprise to me....Zero malfunctions in 6K round tests are the norm for new military M4 family (both M4A1 & M4) Carbines. (thats 6k rounds per weapon!)

Hotgun
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