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Posted: 10/28/2023 10:26:07 AM EDT
[#1]
I've read through this entire thread and I'm still confused. I'm late to the whole home defense with rifle thing. I've always had a handgun or a shotgun for HD but since moving to PA and having my options opened on ammunition for the sake of defense I've been trying to learn as much as I can.
Having said that, I have no .223/5.56 in a HD load and would like to add some. So given the fact that Gold Dots and Federal MSR and TAP are unavailable but both the PPU 55 grn SP and M193 seem to be available which should I purchase? Yes, I'm late and should have stacked deep but I never really put much thought into it. |
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SOM
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Posted: 10/28/2023 11:02:34 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheTallest: I've read through this entire thread and I'm still confused. I'm late to the whole home defense with rifle thing. I've always had a handgun or a shotgun for HD but since moving to PA and having my options opened on ammunition for the sake of defense I've been trying to learn as much as I can. Having said that, I have no .223/5.56 in a HD load and would like to add some. So given the fact that Gold Dots and Federal MSR and TAP are unavailable but both the PPU 55 grn SP and M193 seem to be available which should I purchase? Yes, I'm late and should have stacked deep but I never really put much thought into it. Gold Dots / Fusion are near the top for self defense, if you can find them. M193 is a great general purpose combat round but, out of the two, you'd be better off with PPU 55grain SP for actual home defense IMHO. |
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Posted: 10/28/2023 1:20:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheTallest]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Gold Dots / Fusion are near the top for self defense, if you can find them. M193 is a great general purpose combat round but, out of the two, you'd be better off with PPU 55grain SP for actual home defense IMHO. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By TheTallest: I've read through this entire thread and I'm still confused. I'm late to the whole home defense with rifle thing. I've always had a handgun or a shotgun for HD but since moving to PA and having my options opened on ammunition for the sake of defense I've been trying to learn as much as I can. Having said that, I have no .223/5.56 in a HD load and would like to add some. So given the fact that Gold Dots and Federal MSR and TAP are unavailable but both the PPU 55 grn SP and M193 seem to be available which should I purchase? Yes, I'm late and should have stacked deep but I never really put much thought into it. Gold Dots / Fusion are near the top for self defense, if you can find them. M193 is a great general purpose combat round but, out of the two, you'd be better off with PPU 55grain SP for actual home defense IMHO. I really like Gold Dots it's what I use in my ccw and in my bedside gun. But they're definitely unobtanium right now. I'll pick up some of the PPU for now. Well shit...this is what I get for going outside and doing yard work. PPU is out of stock now. |
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Posted: 10/28/2023 1:39:22 PM EDT
[#4]
Defense counselor, “Your Honor, the defense calls Officer Jones of the Pleasantville Public Safety Department.”
Defense counselor, “Office Jones, what ammunition does your department use in their AR-15 rifles?” Officer Jones, “We use Speer 62 grain Gold Dot ammunition.” Defense counselor, “Officer Jones, why does your department use that ammunition?” Officer Jones, “This ammunition performs very similarly to the ammunition used by the FBI, but it is less expensive. We can even substitute 62 grain Federal Fusion ammunition for the Gold Dot ammunition if the Gold Dot ammunition becomes difficult to acquire.” Defense counselor, “Officer Jones, has your department had any problems with this ammunition?” Officer Jones, “None. It has worked remarkably well for us and has saved lives; officers’ lives and the lives of citizens.” Defense counselor, “Officer Jones, have you personally ever experienced a problem that the prosecutor referred to as “over-penetration” with this ammunition?” Officer Jones, “Never.” Defense counselor, “Has any officer in your department experienced problems with “over-penetration” with this ammunition?” Officer Jones, “Not one.” Defense counselor, “No further questions Your Honor.” Judge, “Prosecutor, would you like to cross examine this witness?” Prosecutor, “No, Your Honor.” …. |
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Posted: 10/28/2023 2:24:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Defense counselor, “Your Honor, the defense calls Officer Jones of the Pleasantville Public Safety Department.” Defense counselor, “Office Jones, what ammunition does your department use in their AR-15 rifles?” Officer Jones, “We use Speer 62 grain Gold Dot ammunition.” Defense counselor, “Officer Jones, why does your department use that ammunition?” Officer Jones, “This ammunition performs very similarly to the ammunition used by the FBI, but it is less expensive. We can even substitute 62 grain Federal Fusion ammunition for the Gold Dot ammunition if the Gold Dot ammunition becomes difficult to acquire.” Defense counselor, “Officer Jones, has your department had any problems with this ammunition?” Officer Jones, “None. It has worked remarkably well for us and has saved lives; officers’ lives and the lives of citizens.” Defense counselor, “Officer Jones, have you personally ever experienced a problem that the prosecutor referred to as “over-penetration” with this ammunition?” Officer Jones, “Never.” Defense counselor, “Has any officer in your department experienced problems with “over-penetration” with this ammunition?” Officer Jones, “Not one.” Defense counselor, “No further questions Your Honor.” Judge, “Prosecutor, would you like to cross examine this witness?” Prosecutor, “No, Your Honor.” …. I did see that you mentioned Fusion earlier in the thread, I was having trouble locating that as well. But as luck would have it I found it and ordered a few hundred rounds of it. Thanks. Sorry for hijacking your thread, OP. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2023 6:12:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheTallest: I did see that you mentioned Fusion earlier in the thread, I was having trouble locating that as well. But as luck would have it I found it and ordered a few hundred rounds of it. Thanks. Sorry for hijacking your thread, OP. No need for apologies. I'm just here to learn and gather knowledge from those more experienced than I. Ask away. |
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Posted: 10/28/2023 8:35:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: S-1]
[#7]
I use 55gr Gold Dot SP (24446). They work.
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Posted: 10/28/2023 8:37:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Proper Milspec M193.
That's all you need. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/28/2023 8:47:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Did anybody mention 75 gr TAP T2? How does it stand up? I hope it's good because I stacked a bunch of it.
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Posted: 10/28/2023 8:56:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#10]
Hornady 5.56mm 75 Grain TAP T2
  Terminal ballistics in properly prepared and validated 10% ordnance gel. Velocity: 2689 fps at 10 feet fired from a 16" 1:7” twist barrel penetration in bare ballistic gel: 13.8" neck length: 0.8” Maximum temporary cavity: 4.3” at a depth of 4.7” Recovered diameter: 0.40” Recovered length: 0.25” Recovered weight: 30.5gr Percentage of fragmentation: 59% …. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 3:56:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: M193 is a great general purpose combat round Which is why the US Military is still using it. Oh wait . . . .... |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 3:56:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fxntime: Proper Milspec M193. That's all you need.  ... |
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SOM
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Posted: 10/30/2023 6:02:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Which is why the US Military is still using it. Oh wait . . . .... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By Blain: M193 is a great general purpose combat round Which is why the US Military is still using it. Oh wait . . . .... The military doesn't always do things logically, IE the new M7 rifle, ACU camo, and a million other bad or questionable decisions. They chose M193's successor round purely on its ability to penetrate a steel helemet at distance. Are you a green tip fan? The M855A1 they issue now though is a great round, prob the best 5.56 combat round ever made. Originally Posted By FlamingDragon: Did anybody mention 75 gr TAP T2? How does it stand up? I hope it's good because I stacked a bunch of it. It's a great round (if your barrel twist can stabalize it) that is very terminally effective on soft targets out to long distances. Downside is that out of all the 5.56 combat rounds fielded, it is prob the worst for barrier penetration and shooting through obstacles. At least M193 will punch through steel due to its velocity. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 11/7/2023 8:06:26 AM EDT
[#14]
TAP T2 bullet is a shorter, fatter bullet than other 75 grain bullets. It is made specifically to stabilize out of a 1/9 barrel. I guess it is out if you are a 1/12 guy who only shoots M193.
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Posted: 11/7/2023 4:30:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DevL: TAP T2 bullet is a shorter, fatter bullet than other 75 grain bullets. It is made specifically to stabilize out of a 1/9 barrel. Incorrect. Years ago I asked Dave Emary why he redesigned the ogive for the T2 bullet. Here's what he said . . . “We made the ogive radius shorter, makes the ogive a little fatter, on the TAP load because testing showed it fed better in the M16/AR. The sharper pointed match bullet would occasionally hang up between the feed ramp cuts in the barrel sleeve on some guns.” ... |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 11:45:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryThanks! I've pretty much standardized all my 5.56 ammo with the IMI 77 gr Razorcore ammo. Good to know it will get the job done!  |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 11/20/2023 4:27:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: castlebravo84]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Humans are not coyotes and a lightweight polymer tipped varmint bullet (the clue is in the name) is a poor choice for a defensive load. The 55 grain V-MAX doesn’t even make the minimum penetration depth in properly prepared and validated 10% bare ordnance gel, let alone after any type of intervening barrier, which can include the radius or humerus in the outstretched upper extremity of an armed attacker intent on killing you. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/hornady_55_grain_vmax_penetration_in_gel-3004065.jpg An armed attacker intent on causing you death or grave bodily harm isn’t going to just stand out in the open, squarely facing you and hold perfectly still with his arms at his side and allow you to put shot after shot into him, all the while not shooting back at you. While the average anteroposterior diameter of the upper thorax of an adult American male is approximately 9.5”, gun fights tend to be rather unpredictable by nature so they’re not always going to occur under the circumstances that Internet Commandos seems to assume that they will and you might just need more penetration than that 9.5”. If a bullet has to penetrate the aggressor’s right arm before continuing to travel into the thorax of the aggressor, (say from a right lateral shot while the bad guy is trying to exit a vehicle in order to kill you) you’re going to need, on average, 12” of penetration to perforate the heart; more penetration of you want to pass through the left ventricle. This is why the FBI’s penetration requirement is 12” to 18”. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/fbi_12_inch_penetration_flipped_002-1873116.jpg During the infamous 1986 FBI Miami Shootout, one of the opening shots in the gunfight fired by FBI Special Agent Dove hit the murderer Michael Platt in the right arm, continued into his thorax, but stopped just short of Platt’s heart; due to the inadequate penetration of the 9mm 115 grain Winchester SilverTip ammunition that was issued at the time. A deeper penetrating round would have ruptured Platt’s heart. This one shot ruptured the brachial blood vessels of Platt’s right arm and collapsed Platt’s right lung causing a hemopneumothorax with 1300 ml of blood loss into the right lung cavity. Even with these wounds, Platt was able to continue shooting at, hitting and causing severe wounds to additional FBI agents; all because of a bullet that failed to penetrate a minimum of 12”. From Dr GK Roberts: “Based on the LE agency and correctional facility shootings I have reviewed over the years, most lightweight 40-60 gr JHP and PT loads would not be ones I would willingly want to rely on to defend myself, my family, or innocent bystanders in a lethal force encounter.” …. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By CWPINSTR: After seeing what a 55gr. Vmax has done on a few coyotes, I would have ZERO issues with using it for home defense. I really don’t think it will bounce off a BG. Sometimes I believe we tend to overthink issues. Humans are not coyotes and a lightweight polymer tipped varmint bullet (the clue is in the name) is a poor choice for a defensive load. The 55 grain V-MAX doesn’t even make the minimum penetration depth in properly prepared and validated 10% bare ordnance gel, let alone after any type of intervening barrier, which can include the radius or humerus in the outstretched upper extremity of an armed attacker intent on killing you. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/hornady_55_grain_vmax_penetration_in_gel-3004065.jpg An armed attacker intent on causing you death or grave bodily harm isn’t going to just stand out in the open, squarely facing you and hold perfectly still with his arms at his side and allow you to put shot after shot into him, all the while not shooting back at you. While the average anteroposterior diameter of the upper thorax of an adult American male is approximately 9.5”, gun fights tend to be rather unpredictable by nature so they’re not always going to occur under the circumstances that Internet Commandos seems to assume that they will and you might just need more penetration than that 9.5”. If a bullet has to penetrate the aggressor’s right arm before continuing to travel into the thorax of the aggressor, (say from a right lateral shot while the bad guy is trying to exit a vehicle in order to kill you) you’re going to need, on average, 12” of penetration to perforate the heart; more penetration of you want to pass through the left ventricle. This is why the FBI’s penetration requirement is 12” to 18”. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/fbi_12_inch_penetration_flipped_002-1873116.jpg During the infamous 1986 FBI Miami Shootout, one of the opening shots in the gunfight fired by FBI Special Agent Dove hit the murderer Michael Platt in the right arm, continued into his thorax, but stopped just short of Platt’s heart; due to the inadequate penetration of the 9mm 115 grain Winchester SilverTip ammunition that was issued at the time. A deeper penetrating round would have ruptured Platt’s heart. This one shot ruptured the brachial blood vessels of Platt’s right arm and collapsed Platt’s right lung causing a hemopneumothorax with 1300 ml of blood loss into the right lung cavity. Even with these wounds, Platt was able to continue shooting at, hitting and causing severe wounds to additional FBI agents; all because of a bullet that failed to penetrate a minimum of 12”. From Dr GK Roberts: “Based on the LE agency and correctional facility shootings I have reviewed over the years, most lightweight 40-60 gr JHP and PT loads would not be ones I would willingly want to rely on to defend myself, my family, or innocent bystanders in a lethal force encounter.” …. I'm not saying to use 50gr vmax for self defense, but if Dove had shot Platt in the same location with it, Platt would have no longer had a working right arm to shoot back with. I think an argument can be made that the biggest advantage of a rifle caliber is a higher chance of ending a fight with a hit to the extremities, so the need to strike vitals after passing through the extremities at odd angles is less than with pistol calibers. That said, I still want that penetration, so I choose 77 tmk for home defense, and if I carried a rifle in my vehicle I would want a bullet with proven barrier performance like gold dot. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 11/20/2023 4:44:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jhon: I run 64gr Gold Dot. Wish I had stocked up on more when PSA was blowing it out at $120 for 200 rounds with a BCG. It works really well on deer. Once my stash dwindles I'll probably be buying Fusion MSR as it's the same bullet as the current 62gr GD and a little more available. My second choice would be Winchester RA556B but it's difficult to find. Yeah, this is my choice for intermediate barrier rounds. When I chrono'ed the various options, it tested a little faster than Fusion MSR, which was 2nd for MV. At HD distances though, Gold Dot @ ~200fps slower doesn't really matter. The RA556B averaged about 1.5" - 1.7" out of a .223 Wylde that will shoot under 0.5 MOA with FGMM (best 5 shot group with that particular gun was 0.33 MOA). |
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Posted: 12/9/2023 12:46:14 PM EDT
[#19]
You break into my house to do me harm.....
You're getting a face full of 62 Gr. TBBC. out of a 14.5" 1/7 twist. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:13:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DevL]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bluemax_1: Yeah, this is my choice for intermediate barrier rounds. When I chrono'ed the various options, it tested a little faster than Fusion MSR, which was 2nd for MV. At HD distances though, Gold Dot @ ~200fps slower doesn't really matter. The RA556B averaged about 1.5" - 1.7" out of a .223 Wylde that will shoot under 0.5 MOA with FGMM (best 5 shot group with that particular gun was 0.33 MOA). RA556B used to be my department duty load. But it was because of price and availability. Now , good luck finding any. It has been out of production for 1.5 years. And 1.5-1.7 MOA is what the .223 pressure Power Point style non bonded did for us. The RA556B was incredibly inaccurate running 2-3+ MOA. Then again, I don't have any barrels that shoot .33 MOA groups and average 0.5 MOA. The Federal Fusion MSR on the other hand is available and sub MOA accurate in a wide varietyof rifles. It expands better at lower velocities than the Ranger RA556B and thus, even though it is slower, the terminal effective range difference between the two is essentially a wash. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:19:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DevL]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Molon: Incorrect. Years ago I asked Dave Emary why he redesigned the ogive for the T2 bullet. Here's what he said . . . “We made the ogive radius shorter, makes the ogive a little fatter, on the TAP load because testing showed it fed better in the M16/AR. The sharper pointed match bullet would occasionally hang up between the feed ramp cuts in the barrel sleeve on some guns.” ... I stand corrected. How about this as a revision then... "TAP T2 bullet is a shorter, fatter bullet than other 75 grain bullets. It will stabilize out of a 1/9 barrel." Because... you know... it does. At least the ones I have shot. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 7:23:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DevL: I stand corrected. How about this as a revision then... "TAP T2 bullet is a shorter, fatter bullet than other 75 grain bullets. It will stabilize out of a 1/9 barrel." Because... you know... it does. At least the ones I have shot. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DevL: Originally Posted By Molon: Incorrect. Years ago I asked Dave Emary why he redesigned the ogive for the T2 bullet. Here's what he said . . . “We made the ogive radius shorter, makes the ogive a little fatter, on the TAP load because testing showed it fed better in the M16/AR. The sharper pointed match bullet would occasionally hang up between the feed ramp cuts in the barrel sleeve on some guns.” ... I stand corrected. How about this as a revision then... "TAP T2 bullet is a shorter, fatter bullet than other 75 grain bullets. It will stabilize out of a 1/9 barrel." Because... you know... it does. At least the ones I have shot. The Hornady T2 was indeed stable in a 1:9" twist barrel in the limited comparative testing that I did years ago . . . https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Hornady-5-56-TAP-T2-223-TAP-FPD-223-TAP-LE-223-Match-heavy-OTM-thread-/16-283506/?page=3#i2525312 . . . though it's only ~0.012" shorter than the Hornady T1 variants.  .... |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 1/11/2024 12:15:43 PM EDT
[#23]
has anyone done any testing on the barnes 223 69gr BTJHP on gel? i got 500 rds of it for $15.99/box and the description specifically claimed it was meant for a defensive use. ive also gotten a few boxes of the frontier by hornady 68gr, and 200rds of aac 75gr 5.56 BTJHP with cannelure.
i have also seen their 77gr otm (not smk/tmk though) for 12.99/per, i wasnt sure if this would be a good choice. ive also stocked up a bit of the AAC 55gr Sabre blade black tip stuff after seeing Tools&targets gel tests with it. id love the 75gr stuff but can never catch it in stock, even when i get an email saying its available, its gone right away. ive also stocked up o fiochhi 55gr sp 223, though i dont know if that stuff is bonded or not, id wager on it not. got a few boxes of 60gr ammo inc vmax, wasnt sure how this stuff would be being a slightly larger option then the 55gr vmax stuff. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/7/2024 10:07:14 PM EDT
[#24]
This may have already been answered somewhere, but I haven't found it.
What, if anything, is the difference between Speer's Gold Dot Rifle Personal Protection 223 Remington 55 Grain (SKU 24468) and their Gold Dot Duty Rifle 223 Rem 55 grain (SKU 24446)? Their stats (dimensions, velocities, energy) appear to be identical. Are they the same product with different SKUs for different markets/channels? I've also got the same question regarding the 62 and 75 grain civilian/LE products. Thanks in advance to any who help clear this up. |
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Posted: 2/12/2024 1:37:16 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LeeTN: This may have already been answered somewhere, but I haven't found it. What, if anything, is the difference between Speer's Gold Dot Rifle Personal Protection 223 Remington 55 Grain (SKU 24468) and their Gold Dot Duty Rifle 223 Rem 55 grain (SKU 24446)? Their stats (dimensions, velocities, energy) appear to be identical. Are they the same product with different SKUs for different markets/channels? I've also got the same question regarding the 62 and 75 grain civilian/LE products. Thanks in advance to any who help clear this up. The difference between the 2 loads might be as simple as " In addition, these loads feature flash suppressed propellants...." in the "LEO" oriented Duty Ammunition Hornady tends to do the same with their LEO oriented ammo. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 2/12/2024 8:54:29 PM EDT
[#26]
I wish everyone would just drop the 40GR 55GR polymer tip BS. It is great for varmint but its a poor choice for SD. Everyone says well its traveling at such and such a speed and that's gonna F sh*t up. It will do some major damage no doubt. But at the same time it will probably fail to hit vitals. Not every SD shot will be taken square on with the vitals. Polymer tip wise I stick with a minimum of 73 grains and up for non barrier situations. When it comes to barrier penetration its Fusion, TBCC or Gold Dot.. TBCC might not be match or sub moa ammo, but if you do your job it will do the job it was meant to do. I also have a soft spot for 62 grain TSX, I wanted to like the 70 but I am unsure about reliability velocity wise past a certain point.
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USA
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Posted: 2/12/2024 9:12:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: LeeTN]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bfoosh06: The difference between the 2 loads might be as simple as " In addition, these loads feature flash suppressed propellants...." in the "LEO" oriented Duty Ammunition ... Or maybe not? The product overview on Speer's web page for the Personal Protection product says, in part, "we offer the same performance [as the law enforcemnt ammo] for self-defense rifle applications." Further, the press release announcing the new PP line--which someone linked but I can't locate now--similarly made it sound like a clone. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/12/2024 11:19:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HKaltwasser]
[#28]
I use similar loads along with Hornady Spire Points and American Eagle AR223 Varmint 50gr. With these rounds you get 6-11" of penetration and a 1,000 foot pounds energy dump.
Originally Posted By Hanjooks: Hello all. As the title says, I'm looking for recommendations for good HD ammo for 5.56/223 and 300BLK. I have hornady subsonic 190gr for 300BLK and Fiocchi 50gr VMAX for 223. However, I'm wondering if this is sufficient for my purposes. My main priority is over penetration, which is why I chose what I chose for each caliber. For the builds I'm using 5.56/223 (12.5" Geissele upper with Griffin MK2 lower) 300BLK (8.5" Criterion 300BLK). Any recommendation/criticisms/etc. is welcome. Don't know a lot of the different bullet tech but been watching videos and reading. Thanks. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 10:02:51 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HKaltwasser: I use similar loads along with Hornady Spire Points and American Eagle AR223 Varmint 50gr. With these rounds you get 6-11" of penetration and a 1,000 foot pounds energy dump. The peer-reviewed scientific information from actual experts in the field of terminal ballistics has shown that “energy transfer” is not a wounding mechanism for small arms fire. WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY by M.L. Fackler, M.D. Letterman Army Institute of Research Division of Military Trauma Research Presidio of San Francisco, California 94219 Institute Report No. 239 The “Shock Wave” Myth By Dr. Martin Fackler Wound Ballistics Review, Winter 1991 and the Journal of Trauma, (29[10]: 1455, 1989). Ballistic Injury By Dr. Martin Fackler Annals of Emergency Medicine, December 1986 Bullet Penetration By Duncan MacPherson Hornady 40 grain V-MAX penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin.  From Dr. G.K. Roberts: "Most 40-60 gr PT loads were designed for varmints and offer very shallow penetration depth—surface damage can be quite impressive. Many LE agencies and correctional systems mistakenly adopted such lightweight varmint loads thinking they would reduce "over-penetration” and ricochet risks; in fact, what has been documented in numerous shootings against human adversaries is that these lightweight, high velocity loads are quite adequate for unobstructed frontal shots and most CNS shots, however it is not uncommon for them to lack sufficient penetration to reach the vital organs and vasculature in a adult male aggressor on oblique shots or if intermediate objects (including an outstretched arm) are present. As such, they are not an ideal load for personal defense.” "In most lethal force encounters, the bad guy is NOT standing still in plain frontal anatomic position with hands at the side––in fact, they are usually moving, have their hands extended holding a weapon, and are frequently at an oblique angle. When forced to incapacitate aggressors in lethal force encounters, having a projectile that can penetrate deeply enough in order to ensure disruption of the major organs and blood vessels in the torso from any angle and through excessive adipose tissue, hypertrophied muscle, or intervening anatomic structures, such as a raised arm can be a critical advantage. Unfortunately, most .223 50 gr JHP's do NOT usually meet this minimum penetration standard and are a very poor choice for self-defense.” ….. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/16/2024 4:58:31 PM EDT
[#30]
Has the 5.56 NATO 75 gr Interlock® HD SBR™ Hornady BLACK been mentioned?? My instructor uses it on boar. I've found the bullets and have been reloading a few rounds.
75 gr Interlock Black Test Detailed testing by Sage Dynamics through materials Sage Dynamics |
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USA
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Posted: 2/16/2024 6:04:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ParrishGhost1971: Has the 5.56 NATO 75 gr Interlock® HD SBR™ Hornady BLACK been mentioned?? My instructor uses it on boar. I've found the bullets and have been reloading a few rounds. 75 gr Interlock Black Test Detailed testing by Sage Dynamics through materials Sage Dynamics Where have you found them? As pulls? I can't find them on Hornady's website. I've heard that Hornday won't sell those particular bullets as components, but only as assembled cartridges, using their special magic propellants. |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 3:56:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JohnDough]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CWPINSTR: First of all, every sane deer hunter knows that even the best 5.56 round is not adequate for shooting a deer. Yes it will kill one but it really is not very ethical. Second, to be blunt, humans die a lot easier than deer, Third when deer hunting you are not worried about a child in the next house 50 feet away. As mentioned, everything is a trade off. A quick expanding bullet that will give 10-12 inches of penetration is probably not a bad choice in a home defense situation, but I would agree that one with only 3-4 inches of penetration is insufficient. What aspect of this wound channel (impact at @ 100 yards from an 11.5" SBR) looks inadequate? Exit (deer in situ):  Attached FileDamage to internal organs:  Attached File Attached FilePathway through deer, from pictured Right to pictured Left.  Attached FileEntrance, for scale:  Attached FileExit, for scale:  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/22/2024 4:43:17 AM EDT
[#33]
Good information!
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Posted: 2/22/2024 5:02:36 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CWPINSTR: After seeing what a 55gr. Vmax has done on a few coyotes, I would have ZERO issues with using it for home defense. I really don’t think it will bounce off a BG. Sometimes I believe we tend to overthink issues. Big Coyotes are what 30-40lbs? Big criminal dudes are what 200-250lbs? |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2024 7:03:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: sigman68]
[#35]
I recently handloaded some 64 grain Gold Dots and fired three 5-shot groups at 100 yards. All three groups were sub MOA.
Way more accurate than M193 or M855, and better performing. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2024 1:09:51 PM EDT
[#36]
Has anyon tried the hornady critical either defense/duty 73gr FTX on gel or meat targets? would you trust that stuff? got a few boxes last time i saw it but at $28/box id want to do some reseach before getting more, i dont have land to really do any kind of gel tests etc.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2024 2:02:04 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnDough: What aspect of this wound channel (impact at @ 100 yards from an 11.5" SBR) looks inadequate? Exit (deer in situ): https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/453733/Exit_jpg-3137198.JPG Damage to internal organs: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/453733/Lung2_-_Copy_jpg-3137199.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/453733/Lung_jpg-3137209.JPG Pathway through deer, from pictured Right to pictured Left. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/453733/R2L_jpg-3137200.JPG Entrance, for scale: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/453733/EntranceRIb2_jpg-3137205.JPG Exit, for scale: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/453733/ExitRib2_-_Copy_jpg-3137207.JPG What round did you use? Obviously worked well. I been using 55gr or 75gr gold dot depending on what I can get I tried 77gr TMK this year and was very impressed. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/22/2024 3:41:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: LeeTN]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By elgin25: Has anyon tried the hornady critical either defense/duty 73gr FTX on gel or meat targets? would you trust that stuff? got a few boxes last time i saw it but at $28/box id want to do some reseach before getting more, i dont have land to really do any kind of gel tests etc. I bought a bunch without doing my "due diligence." I have not shot it yet, but others have not had uniformly great experiences. I've found the following video gel tests: The Grey State: The Rounds Up: Hornady Critical Defense RIfle 55 Grain FTX Testing and Review (2019) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aSAoNyMqCM AR15.com: Hornady Hype? .223 Rem Hornady 73gr Critical Defense Gel Test (2019) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_mel-UQkFI AR15.com: You Asked For It! 73gr Critical Defense 16 Inch Gel Test (2019) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0zFJ-kcm_g Tools&Targets: AR-15 Critical Defense [73gr] vs Gold Dot! [62gr]...223 Ammo Ballistic Gel Test! (2023) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JKPkXqfuqI |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 12:29:28 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hyrum-22: What round did you use? Obviously worked well. I been using 55gr or 75gr gold dot depending on what I can get I tried 77gr TMK this year and was very impressed. Mk318 mod 0 |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 2:56:14 AM EDT
[#40]
This is 70gr TSX, at 74 impact, smaller animal, though.
Exit:  Attached FileLung exit:  Attached FileLung Entrance:  Attached FileBullet path L to R in photo:  Attached FileThis is another, larger deer, which I shot in the chest with the 70gr TSX round. Shown is the recovery of that bullet. Impact at 100m, from 11.5" SBR.  Using The Barnes 70gr TSX On Game |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2024 1:16:39 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnDough: Mk318 mod 0 Thank you for sharing your data also saw your post in molons thread on MK318. When mod0 was on the market I was busy stacking gold dot so I missed out on that load. Have yet to even test out 70gr TSX in my rifles but have had good results with the 62gr. On a side note regarding the thread’s topic of HD ammo. For folks concerned about over penetration take a look at Federals 64gr JSP it has a good documented history as both a hunting and duty round and IS on Docs list. Find it funny that Vmax gets recommended over this round. |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 11:10:03 AM EDT
[#42]
I feel like I should participate in this forum more often. Sheesh...
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Posted: 2/24/2024 11:00:50 PM EDT
[#43]
Any data on Barnes 55 gr VorTX?
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Posted: 2/25/2024 1:26:36 PM EDT
[#44]
For hunting, I prefer the Browntip. Far more accurate. In the livingroom, both work fine.
 Attached File |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2024 1:53:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Personally I keep 62gr federal fusion in my hd AR-15 mags. It tracks fairly decent with m855 so I can sight in with cheap bulk and shoot only a few RDS of the expensive stuff for final zero
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/5/2024 7:03:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LeeTN: I bought a bunch without doing my "due diligence." I have not shot it yet, but others have not had uniformly great experiences. I've found the following video gel tests: The Grey State: The Rounds Up: Hornady Critical Defense RIfle 55 Grain FTX Testing and Review (2019) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aSAoNyMqCM AR15.com: Hornady Hype? .223 Rem Hornady 73gr Critical Defense Gel Test (2019) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_mel-UQkFI AR15.com: You Asked For It! 73gr Critical Defense 16 Inch Gel Test (2019) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0zFJ-kcm_g Tools&Targets: AR-15 Critical Defense [73gr] vs Gold Dot! [62gr]...223 Ammo Ballistic Gel Test! (2023) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JKPkXqfuqI Thank you I will check those out |
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Posted: 3/5/2024 7:33:02 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DefenderAO: Any data on Barnes 55 gr VorTX? The link is in the "Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo" FAQ tacked at the top of the page: https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/Barnes/Barnes%20Gelatin%20Data%20for%20.223%20and%205.56.html |
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Posted: 3/6/2024 1:27:22 AM EDT
[#48]
I have read a lot of ammo ballistic write ups from @molon
I wonder what self defense AR15 223/556 he chooses? |
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Posted: 3/6/2024 8:05:08 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheKurnal: I have read a lot of ammo ballistic write ups from @molon I wonder what self defense AR15 223/556 he chooses? It would be nice if there was a corresponding one stop, consistant methodology review of the terminal effects of each round. The info is mostly out there, but spread out over many sources and formats (more and more the dreaded videos), and it isn't all FBI tests in calibrated ballistic gel when you find it. |
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Posted: 3/6/2024 12:24:07 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GLOCKshooter: Molon's information is top notch as far as it goes. Great info on accuracy, velocity, construction, etc. And while I am at it, props for text and pic format, as I personally hate having to watch a youtube video for actual information. It would be nice if there was a corresponding one stop, consistant methodology review of the terminal effects of each round. The info is mostly out there, but spread out over many sources and formats (more and more the dreaded videos), and it isn't all FBI tests in calibrated ballistic gel when you find it. Did you read the "Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo" tacked at the top of the page? I spent a loooooong time accumulating all of the data that went into it. |
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