Probably 7-8” in gel is my guess.

Assuming the OP is talking a 9mm pistol, then I take the rifle all day every day regardless of inferior bullets.

Hits count, and the rifle makes hitting substantially easier.  Seems like a simple choice to me, but the different perspectives are interesting.

Quick summary... I have business to attend today, and will post a full writeup later.

165gr SPBT, grenaded 3, busted #4, and cracked #5, projectile not found.
53gr Vmax, grenaded 2, found in #3. Surprisingly held together somewhat.
53gr SMK, grenaded 2, large fragments in #3.
52gr Speer BTHP, grenaded 2, small fragments in #2+3.
69gr SMK, grenaded 2, busted #3, cracked #4, found in #3. Expanded decently, but not uniformly.
55gr SP, grenaded 2, busted #3, dented #4. Pretty good mushroom.
55gr FMJ (wolf gold) grenaded 3 jugs, while also skidding off the railroad tie of a table. Not found.
124gr HST +P, Grenaded 1, busted #2, found in #3. Perfect mushroom.
230gr HST +P, grenaded 2, found in #3. Perfect mushroom.
22lr HVHP busted 2, found in #3. Cute little mushroom.
22lr HVSEG, grenaded 1, found in #2. Perfect split into 3 chunks.
22lr SV, clean penetration into #3. Looks like it could be fired again.

All but the speer BTHP/OTM held together to penetrate some, I'd say this was a better "varmint" bullet than the vmax.

Yup.  Just look at some of the posts in this thread.


....

The Internet Commando always seems to assume that an aggressor intent on causing him death or grave bodily harm is going to stand completely upright, out in the open, at a pre-determined distance, squarely facing the IC, with the aggressor’s hands at his side, all while holding perfectly still and while allowing the IC to shoot round after round of inadequate ammunition at him until physiological incapacitation eventually occurs; all while the aggressor does not shoot back at him and give him an unsurvivable gun-shot wound.

While the average anteroposterior diameter of the upper thorax of an adult American male is approximately 9.5”, gun fights tend to be rather unpredictable by nature so they’re not always going to occur under the circumstances that the Internet Commando seems to assume that they will and you might just need more penetration than that 9.5”.  

If a bullet has to penetrate the aggressor’s right arm before continuing to travel into the thorax of the aggressor, (say from a right lateral shot while the bad guy is trying to exit a vehicle in order to kill you) you’re going to need, on average, 12” of penetration to perforate the heart; more penetration of you want to pass through the left ventricle.  This is why the FBI’s penetration requirement is 12” to 18”.











During the infamous 1986 FBI Miami Shootout, one of the opening shots in the gunfight fired by FBI Special Agent Dove hit Platt in the right arm, continued into his thorax, but stopped just short of Platt’s heart; due to the inadequate penetration of the 9mm Winchester SilverTip ammunition that was issued at the time.  A deeper penetrating round would have ruptured Platts heart.  

This one shot ruptured the brachial blood vessels of Platt’s right arm and collapsed Platt’s right lung causing a hemopneumothorax with 1300 ml of blood loss into the right lung cavity.  Even with these wounds, Platt was able to continue shooting at, hitting and causing severe wounds to additional FBI agents; due to a bullet that failed to penetrate a minimum of 12”.  

The Hornady 55 grain V-MAX only penetrates to approximately 9” in properly prepared and validated 10% ballistic gelatin.  This is one of the reasons that actual experts in the field of terminal ballistics don’t recommend using bullets such as the 55 grain V-MAX for a duty/self-defense load.








Here’s what an actual expert in the field of terminal ballistics has to say about using varmint rounds for duty/self-defense.




From Dr. G.K. Roberts:

"Most 40-60 gr PT loads were designed for varmints and offer very shallow penetration depth—surface damage can be quite impressive. Many LE agencies and correctional systems mistakenly adopted such lightweight varmint loads thinking they would reduce "over-penetration” and ricochet risks; in fact, what has been documented in numerous shootings against human adversaries is that these lightweight, high velocity loads are quite adequate for unobstructed frontal shots and most CNS shots, however it is not uncommon for them to lack sufficient penetration to reach the vital organs and vasculature in an adult male aggressor on oblique shots or if intermediate objects (including an outstretched arm) are present. As such, they are not an ideal load for personal defense.”



"In most lethal force encounters, the bad guy is NOT standing still in plain frontal anatomic position with hands at the side––in fact, they are usually moving, have their hands extended holding a weapon, and are frequently at an oblique angle. When forced to incapacitate aggressors in lethal force encounters, having a projectile that can penetrate deeply enough in order to ensure disruption of the major organs and blood vessels in the torso from any angle and through excessive adipose tissue, hypertrophied muscle, or intervening anatomic structures, such as a raised arm can be a critical advantage. Unfortunately, most .223 50 gr JHP's do NOT usually meet this minimum penetration standard and are a very poor choice for self-defense.”

Just please don’t get discouraged from some of the posters here. There are some here me included that truly appreciate the wealth of knowledge you provide here. Keep up the excellent work.

So would you rather have 17+1 HST in a G17 or 30rds of Vmax in a 16in carbine if you had to grab one right now and do work? While the Vmax would never be my first choice in defensive ammo I’d pick up a rifle loaded with whatever was in it before I grabbed a handgun.

Go back a read Molon’s post above. That’s my answer.

Yes I would pick 9mm HST over .223 Vmax. But would definitely take .223 Gold Dot over any pistol caliber eveyday and twice on Sunday. Why do people even try to argue this?

And I’d take 223/556 defensive round before Vmax but if I was going to get into a shooting I’d take the weapon that’s easier to use, easier to get hits with, pushes the engagement distance out into my favor and carries more bullets.

Maybe you’ll get lucky and get a good physiological stop with vmax, could happen.

But I don’t foresee any situation where one is for whatever reason limited to vmax bullets. One could just simply buy quality defense ammo specifically designed to kill people. Making this hypothetical thread about defense pistol ammo vs varmint rifle academic and rather pointless.

Because that's what's loaded in the rifle because you have a groundhog problem under the barn and coyotes keep trying to eat your chickens. It's 2am, the dogs start barking, but this time there's headlights near the barn. Methheads are stealing your whatever. It's 35yds from backdoor to barn.

Do you grab your g19 or your AR or let them run off with a truckload of your shit? Well of course methheads are known for their excellent decision making, and decide they'll convince you that they need to keep the pawn shop stocked.

Mind you at 2am, this fella is probably going to be wearing nothing but a bad attitude. I'm no tactical Timmy and don't keep a PC or belt next to my damn bed. Unlike most of the degenerates in GD, I won't be putting anything in my prison wallet. So rifle it is. I have 31 rounds of hatred and discontent, canned sunlight under a tape switch, can count the missing teeth at over 100yds, and won't blow my damn eardrums out in the process.

Is it ideal? No. But it's a more favorable approach. To have more friends in the magazine that still hit pretty hard.

I'm a pretty good shot, but my expectation of hitting the scrawny fucks running at me with a 2x4 using a pistol in the dark after I just woke up is much lower than using a rifle.

Right now, I personally don't have those problems, living in town. It's closer to 25ft from house to house on the sides, I don't have larger varmints to attend, and when I do have raccoons, I deliberately get a suppressed rimfire. So there's fusions loaded in the house gun. It's really not my position to debate why one is in the situation, but since I made up an easily believable, realistic scenario in 30 seconds, it's plausible that one might legitimately have to debate this with themself.

I'd like to think that since I said fuck it and went out to actually test some bullets on the same day from the same gun (where applicable), with a decent spread of data, one might be able to figure what their choice is a bit better. You've got a 30-06 deer load, two service pistols, 3 flavors of 22, 3 varmint loads, standard FMJ, and a legacy SP.

After I fix dinner and whatnot, I'll post some pictures of the bullet fragments and junk to supplement. Have to check out the crappy cell phone videos the woman took, she doesn't think they'll be useful because of distance not letting the camera capture the water spray.

...I guess I would just keep a spare 30 round mag of gold dot I don’t know...

I'm not fiddle fucking magazines unless it's empty or jammed up. I wouldn't expect the wife/kids to do it either. Not that gold dots (et al) wouldn't do the trick on quadrupedal varmints...

Anyway... to keep it simple, the lighter varmint bullets (undeveloped loads) failed to reach 3k. They were between 2900-2950, while the 55gr did hit 3k. The 165gr was 2700. I got 1197 and 1015 on the HSTs in favor of the 9mm. The CCI SV failed to read, minimags reached 1100 and the Aguilas did about 1250. The 69gr SMK produced 2700fps.

The rifles were shot at 50yds, and the pistols/rimfire at 20yds.

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Three years ago while out hunting raccoons at evening I shot a medium size sow with Remington UMC 50gr JHP varmint ammo.
I was using my 10" AR Pistol and the sow was shot from about 30 yards and it put her down almost immediately...I was impressed.
The impact point was center of the neck from the left side and the bullet completely penetrated the neck and there was a exit wound on the right side.  The wound looked similar to other hogs I neck shot with 30-30 carbines except the exit wound was not as large.  I think the bullet didn't behave like a typical varmint bullet and had deeper penetration due to slower velocity out of the short barrel.  I haven't shot other hogs with that ammo and I normally keep that AR pistol loaded with Speer Gold Dot 62gr.

ETA Around my place .223 V Max is very popular for headshots on hogs.