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Link Posted: 2/14/2021 4:46:04 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
Q: does anyone have examples of over-penetration actually causing injury, death, or issues? Not at all saying it isn't something to be mindful of - I think both ammo selection and knowing which directions you can/should/shouldn't/can't shoot are both important. But I realized that I haven't ever actually heard of it happening outside of police, which are both notoriously inaccurate compared to most civvie shootings as well as going in without knowledge of a home's shooting lines as an actual inhabitant would have.
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Not really.  According to the FBI BRF, over penetration causing collateral damage (injury to bystanders) is such a rare occurrence that it’s a statistical nonissue.  The FBI BRF does however warn that the greatest danger for any projectile is UNDER penetration and failure to reach vital organs.  Fragmenting varmint or “urban” loads are highly problematic and can cause issues with under penetration, which is why you see a lot of LE agencies moving away from them.  For home use, there are a couple urban loads that will likely work sufficiently for shooting someone, but they’re all 55gr or higher and there’s no guarantee of penetration like with a bonded JSP, copper monolith JHP (like the TSX, GMX), or FMJ.  Varmint loads don’t handle bone well, and variances in soft tissue density between fat and muscle also cause issues.  Something to be aware of when considering the efficacy of certain types of loads that were designed to kill rodents and small nuisance mammals.  

Old gun shop Fudd lore dictates that a 5.56 FMJ won’t go through two layers of drywall, so it’s best for home defense.  This is utter bullshit that has been prove false, as M193 will go through at least 14 layers of drywall (7 walls).  There are YouTube videos proving the penetration ability of the round.  The key to not over-penetrating is NOT MISSING.  The body will cause the round to dump a majority of its energy if the round leaves the body.  Statistically however, the .223/5.56 has a lower incidence of over-penetration than standard combat caliber pistol loads like 9mm JHPs and similar that are used by LE.  This is not only applicable to urban loads, but also to barrier blind rifle loads like the Speer Gold Dot/Federal Fusion JSP (same bullet), Federal Tactical Bonded JSP/TBBC, Barnes TSX, etc.
Link Posted: 2/15/2021 12:38:11 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:

Not really.  According to the FBI BRF, over penetration causing collateral damage (injury to bystanders) is such a rare occurrence that it’s a statistical nonissue.  The FBI BRF does however warn that the greatest danger for any projectile is UNDER penetration and failure to reach vital organs.  Fragmenting varmint or “urban” loads are highly problematic and can cause issues with under penetration, which is why you see a lot of LE agencies moving away from them.  For home use, there are a couple urban loads that will likely work sufficiently for shooting someone, but they’re all 55gr or higher and there’s no guarantee of penetration like with a bonded JSP, copper monolith JHP (like the TSX, GMX), or FMJ.  Varmint loads don’t handle bone well, and variances in soft tissue density between fat and muscle also cause issues.  Something to be aware of when considering the efficacy of certain types of loads that were designed to kill rodents and small nuisance mammals.  

Old gun shop Fudd lore dictates that a 5.56 FMJ won’t go through two layers of drywall, so it’s best for home defense.  This is utter bullshit that has been prove false, as M193 will go through at least 14 layers of drywall (7 walls).  There are YouTube videos proving the penetration ability of the round.  The key to not over-penetrating is NOT MISSING.  The body will cause the round to dump a majority of its energy if the round leaves the body.  Statistically however, the .223/5.56 has a lower incidence of over-penetration than standard combat caliber pistol loads like 9mm JHPs and similar that are used by LE.  This is not only applicable to urban loads, but also to barrier blind rifle loads like the Speer Gold Dot/Federal Fusion JSP (same bullet), Federal Tactical Bonded JSP/TBBC, Barnes TSX, etc.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Q: does anyone have examples of over-penetration actually causing injury, death, or issues? Not at all saying it isn't something to be mindful of - I think both ammo selection and knowing which directions you can/should/shouldn't/can't shoot are both important. But I realized that I haven't ever actually heard of it happening outside of police, which are both notoriously inaccurate compared to most civvie shootings as well as going in without knowledge of a home's shooting lines as an actual inhabitant would have.

Not really.  According to the FBI BRF, over penetration causing collateral damage (injury to bystanders) is such a rare occurrence that it’s a statistical nonissue.  The FBI BRF does however warn that the greatest danger for any projectile is UNDER penetration and failure to reach vital organs.  Fragmenting varmint or “urban” loads are highly problematic and can cause issues with under penetration, which is why you see a lot of LE agencies moving away from them.  For home use, there are a couple urban loads that will likely work sufficiently for shooting someone, but they’re all 55gr or higher and there’s no guarantee of penetration like with a bonded JSP, copper monolith JHP (like the TSX, GMX), or FMJ.  Varmint loads don’t handle bone well, and variances in soft tissue density between fat and muscle also cause issues.  Something to be aware of when considering the efficacy of certain types of loads that were designed to kill rodents and small nuisance mammals.  

Old gun shop Fudd lore dictates that a 5.56 FMJ won’t go through two layers of drywall, so it’s best for home defense.  This is utter bullshit that has been prove false, as M193 will go through at least 14 layers of drywall (7 walls).  There are YouTube videos proving the penetration ability of the round.  The key to not over-penetrating is NOT MISSING.  The body will cause the round to dump a majority of its energy if the round leaves the body.  Statistically however, the .223/5.56 has a lower incidence of over-penetration than standard combat caliber pistol loads like 9mm JHPs and similar that are used by LE.  This is not only applicable to urban loads, but also to barrier blind rifle loads like the Speer Gold Dot/Federal Fusion JSP (same bullet), Federal Tactical Bonded JSP/TBBC, Barnes TSX, etc.


Well-said, sir!  There was a reason FBI created the barrier blind test and moved to use of ammo that meets that penetration test.  And, the data also supports the extremely low likelihood of collateral damage from over penetration.

I've been using and handloading bonded soft points and Barnes TSX solid copper hollow points for decades in hunting deer and other large game.  The same bullet construction merits barrier blind testing.

Just run Speer Gold Dot, TBBC, Federal Fusion, Barnes TSX.  They expand rapidly, hold together, have superb terminal performance across a broad range of velocities, break bone and get the job done.  Over penetration collateral damage no longer enters the FBI thought process because of the minuscule risk, and it ought not ours.

Save the varmint ammo and outdated frag ammo (mil use it only because of stupid Hague Convention rules), for varmints or target/range use, or purely as backup supply if you run short of the good stuff.  Varmint ammo is a poor choice.  Frag ammo is unreliable, and neither penetrates sufficiently.
Link Posted: 2/15/2021 1:59:22 PM EDT
[#3]
Barrier blind ammunition became popular for LEO use largely due to concerns over the performance of OTMs during traffic stops. If you don't expect to be shooting through a lot of auto glass it isn't as much of an advantage.

77 gr TMK expands consistently down to ~1700 FPS and has more than adequate penetration out of a 12" rifle. Does a number on game too.

The flip side of this - rifle fragmentation will produce broader wounding than expansion alone. Bonded soft points/copper solids work fine but in a HD situation, I expect that the vast majority of justified shots will be against exposed targets and I also expect that the majority of barriers will not hamper TMKs dramatically more than bonded rounds.
Link Posted: 2/16/2021 1:20:32 AM EDT
[#4]
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Frag ammo is unreliable, and neither penetrates sufficiently.
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Which frag ammo are you talking about exactly? 77gr TMK is just as consistent if not more so than tsx/bonded soft points, and penetrates just fine from all common barrel lengths.

Like 45Custom said, fragmenting rifle ammo undoubtedly does more tissue damage than purely expanding ammo. When you can get rapid fragmentation + super reliable frag/expansion + adequate penetration all in the same bullet, I don’t see what makes monolithics/bonded soft points superior for home defense.

After all, the ultimate goal is to stop the threat as quickly as possible. I know, shot placement matters, but a good fragmenting round will do the job more effectively than something like a TSX or TBBC. Yeah those are better when shot through hard barriers, but light barriers won’t stop a bullet like the TMK. I don’t foresee a situation where you’d have to shoot through auto glass in a home defense shooting.

Gold dot/fusion do bridge the gap a bit since they do almost as much damage as the fragmenting rounds, but for pure effect on target, there are better choices than the other rounds you mentioned.

Link Posted: 2/16/2021 10:38:42 PM EDT
[#5]
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This is why suppressors are a good thing.

ANY unsuppressed gun inside an enclosed space is going to suck for your ears.
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My suppressor knocks it down to a tolerable level. Hurts, but not ear drum blowing.
Link Posted: 2/19/2021 10:51:55 AM EDT
[#6]
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reminder: This was done at almost contact distances with plain 223 ball and a 16" budget ar15.

Not the best, but the best at the time.
Link Posted: 2/19/2021 11:19:29 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:


reminder: This was done at almost contact distances with plain 223 ball and a 16" budget ar15.

Not the best, but the best at the time.
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reminder: This was done at almost contact distances with plain 223 ball and a 16" budget ar15.

Not the best, but the best at the time.

That was posted as a direct contradiction to the scenario put forth by another poster.

Regardless, could you please post a link to where the ammo Kyle used was identified and verified, I have been unable to find it myself.
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