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Posted: 2/23/2021 6:13:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. Gold Dots are bonded soft point jacketed bullets that expand rapidly to about 2x diameter and still retain close to 100% of their weight. They are extremely reliable and are FBI barrier blind test compliant. The 62 grain loading is also excellent. See also the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bonded 62 grain loading, XM556FBIT3. Hotter full 5.56 loading and ideal if you can find some. Only downside to the Gold Dots is that they are slower, .223 velocity. That does not matter for self defense. Terminal ballistics are superb at those distances. OTM bullets are thin jacketed hollow points that were originally designed as accurate target bullets and for varmints. On human size targets or large game hey are unreliable in expansion and penetration. They rely on fragmentation which may be violent and impressive but shallow, might or might not penetrate, and if they don't yaw, can just make an icepick hole. They are in use by military primarily because of outdated Hague Convention nonsense. TMK (Sierra Tipped Match King) bullets are better than 77 SMK in long range application match/target work, but are still a thin jacketed varmint style bullet design. Better terminal performance than SMKs, but not barrier blind compliant and not suitable IMO for serious hunting of large game or self-defense. For non-mil applications such as self-defense and LE, bonded soft point jacketed bullets and monolithic copper expanding hollow points like Barnes TAC/TSX are the way to go. Don't throw out 77 OTM or M193/M855. Use the 77 OTM for long range target shooting (the 77 grain SMK bullet upon which the load was developed is a match target bullet), and M193/M855 for reserve when you deplete the "good stuff", or for practice, range or drills. This reminds me of the fragmentation vs expansion threads from 15 years ago. You obviously fall into the 'expansion is better for wounding than fragmentation' camp. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 6:37:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: TMK (Sierra Tipped Match King) bullets are better than 77 SMK in long range application match/target work, but are still a thin jacketed varmint style bullet design. Better terminal performance than SMKs, but not barrier blind compliant and not suitable IMO for serious hunting of large game or self-defense. For non-mil applications such as self-defense and LE, bonded soft point jacketed bullets and monolithic copper expanding hollow points like Barnes TAC/TSX are the way to go. Indeed, 77 gr TMK is highly unreliable. Just look at the results on a: Moose... 4 different elk... A bear... A hog (credit to a redditor)... Organic gelatin block out of a 16" barrel Another gel block with a 24" barrel shot in the background. Couldn't even kill a Texas deer. As we can see, the TMK design's performance degrades drastically through steel and even more so through light barriers like plywood and drywall. While the performance of the 50 gr TSX through steel is awe inspiring: The non-optimized TSX variants do even better: And they improve on auto glass performance, too. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 6:38:53 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This reminds me of the fragmentation vs expansion threads from 15 years ago. You obviously fall into the 'expansion is better for wounding than fragmentation' camp. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No. Gold Dots are bonded soft point jacketed bullets that expand rapidly to about 2x diameter and still retain close to 100% of their weight. They are extremely reliable and are FBI barrier blind test compliant. The 62 grain loading is also excellent. See also the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bonded 62 grain loading, XM556FBIT3. Hotter full 5.56 loading and ideal if you can find some. Only downside to the Gold Dots is that they are slower, .223 velocity. That does not matter for self defense. Terminal ballistics are superb at those distances. OTM bullets are thin jacketed hollow points that were originally designed as accurate target bullets and for varmints. On human size targets or large game hey are unreliable in expansion and penetration. They rely on fragmentation which may be violent and impressive but shallow, might or might not penetrate, and if they don't yaw, can just make an icepick hole. They are in use by military primarily because of outdated Hague Convention nonsense. TMK (Sierra Tipped Match King) bullets are better than 77 SMK in long range application match/target work, but are still a thin jacketed varmint style bullet design. Better terminal performance than SMKs, but not barrier blind compliant and not suitable IMO for serious hunting of large game or self-defense. For non-mil applications such as self-defense and LE, bonded soft point jacketed bullets and monolithic copper expanding hollow points like Barnes TAC/TSX are the way to go. Don't throw out 77 OTM or M193/M855. Use the 77 OTM for long range target shooting (the 77 grain SMK bullet upon which the load was developed is a match target bullet), and M193/M855 for reserve when you deplete the "good stuff", or for practice, range or drills. This reminds me of the fragmentation vs expansion threads from 15 years ago. You obviously fall into the 'expansion is better for wounding than fragmentation' camp. I don't think he is saying that, I read that he is saying that expansion is more reliable a wounding mechanism than fragmentation, which is typically true. Bonded expanding rounds also have the added benefit of being much better at penetrating barriers which would give them the edge by default, even if all things were equal between the two terminal performance wise. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 9:19:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think he is saying that, I read that he is saying that expansion is more reliable a wounding mechanism than fragmentation, which is typically true. Bonded expanding rounds also have the added benefit of being much better at penetrating barriers which would give them the edge by default, even if all things were equal between the two terminal performance wise. I disagree with that particular line. Well, not so much disagree would say it depends on the situation. For my home defense rounds, I do NOT want additional barrier penetration. When everything works properly then fragmentation > expanding. But, in terms of expansion/fragmentation range and reliability, expanding > fragmentation/ 110gr Vmax for home defense where I'm always in fragmentation range. 110gr Tac-tx for the backpack gun (Well, one mag anyway. Stuff is expensive) |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 9:55:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Indeed, 77 gr TMK is highly unreliable. Just look at the results on a: Moose... 4 different elk... A bear... A hog (credit to a redditor)...  Organic gelatin block out of a 16" barrel Another gel block with a 24" barrel shot in the background. Couldn't even kill a Texas deer. As we can see, the TMK design's performance degrades drastically through steel and even more so through light barriers like plywood and drywall. While the performance of the 50 gr TSX through steel is awe inspiring: The non-optimized TSX variants do even better: And they improve on auto glass performance, too. To add onto this, here are some pics I've compiled of the TMKs performance on whitetail deer - many of them being from the same thread that you linked. Not only is it not unethical on deer, it's probably the best possible choice in this caliber. https://imgur.com/a/2F4ytbU Bonded soft points and TSX have their positives, but they simply aren't as terminally effective as something like a TMK. Fragmentation is king when you can get it consistently. I'm happy with the TMK as my HD load of choice, to say the least.. |
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Posted: 2/23/2021 9:58:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To add onto this, here are some pics I've compiled of the TMKs performance on whitetail deer - many of being from the same thread that you linked. Not only is it not unethical on deer, it's probably the best possible choice in this caliber. https://imgur.com/a/2F4ytbU I'm happy with the TMK as my HD load of choice, to say the least.. I tend to like bullets with high weight retention. |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 12:44:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree with that particular line. Well, not so much disagree would say it depends on the situation. For my home defense rounds, I do NOT want additional barrier penetration. When everything works properly then fragmentation > expanding. But, in terms of expansion/fragmentation range and reliability, expanding > fragmentation/ 110gr Vmax for home defense where I'm always in fragmentation range. 110gr Tac-tx for the backpack gun (Well, one mag anyway. Stuff is expensive) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't think he is saying that, I read that he is saying that expansion is more reliable a wounding mechanism than fragmentation, which is typically true. Bonded expanding rounds also have the added benefit of being much better at penetrating barriers which would give them the edge by default, even if all things were equal between the two terminal performance wise. I disagree with that particular line. Well, not so much disagree would say it depends on the situation. For my home defense rounds, I do NOT want additional barrier penetration. When everything works properly then fragmentation > expanding. But, in terms of expansion/fragmentation range and reliability, expanding > fragmentation/ 110gr Vmax for home defense where I'm always in fragmentation range. 110gr Tac-tx for the backpack gun (Well, one mag anyway. Stuff is expensive) Good point, esp if you're an apartment or urban dweller. Federal 50 grain HPs are very terminally effective without the risk of over penetration through walls, etc. Quoted: To add onto this, here are some pics I've compiled of the TMKs performance on whitetail deer - many of them being from the same thread that you linked. Not only is it not unethical on deer, it's probably the best possible choice in this caliber. https://imgur.com/a/2F4ytbU Bonded soft points and TSX have their positives, but they simply aren't as terminally effective as something like a TMK. Fragmentation is king when you can get it consistently. I'm happy with the TMK as my HD load of choice, to say the least.. I don't know, terminal effectiveness aside, I am not sure I would want all the extra meat damage and stray fragment fishing that a round like that would produce in a dear. An expanding round that stays in one piece seems like it would be a much more ideal choice with a lot less meat damage, and no worry about trying to fish out stray fragments from adjacent meat. |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 1:15:23 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good point, esp if you're an apartment or urban dweller. Federal 50 grain HPs are very terminally effective without the risk of over penetration through walls, etc. I don't know, terminal effectiveness aside, I am not sure I would want all the extra meat damage and stray fragment fishing that a round like that would produce in a dear. An expanding round that stays in one piece seems like it would be a much more ideal choice with a lot less meat damage, and no worry about trying to fish out stray fragments from adjacent meat. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't think he is saying that, I read that he is saying that expansion is more reliable a wounding mechanism than fragmentation, which is typically true. Bonded expanding rounds also have the added benefit of being much better at penetrating barriers which would give them the edge by default, even if all things were equal between the two terminal performance wise. I disagree with that particular line. Well, not so much disagree would say it depends on the situation. For my home defense rounds, I do NOT want additional barrier penetration. When everything works properly then fragmentation > expanding. But, in terms of expansion/fragmentation range and reliability, expanding > fragmentation/ 110gr Vmax for home defense where I'm always in fragmentation range. 110gr Tac-tx for the backpack gun (Well, one mag anyway. Stuff is expensive) Good point, esp if you're an apartment or urban dweller. Federal 50 grain HPs are very terminally effective without the risk of over penetration through walls, etc. Quoted: To add onto this, here are some pics I've compiled of the TMKs performance on whitetail deer - many of them being from the same thread that you linked. Not only is it not unethical on deer, it's probably the best possible choice in this caliber. https://imgur.com/a/2F4ytbU Bonded soft points and TSX have their positives, but they simply aren't as terminally effective as something like a TMK. Fragmentation is king when you can get it consistently. I'm happy with the TMK as my HD load of choice, to say the least.. I don't know, terminal effectiveness aside, I am not sure I would want all the extra meat damage and stray fragment fishing that a round like that would produce in a dear. An expanding round that stays in one piece seems like it would be a much more ideal choice with a lot less meat damage, and no worry about trying to fish out stray fragments from adjacent meat. Nah, works fine IME. Punches through the ribs, frags into the chest cavity, is mostly done by the far side but usually still pokes a couple finger wide exit hole. All the frag is expended within the heart/lung area, which is pretty ideal IMO. |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 1:16:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: TMK (Sierra Tipped Match King) bullets are better than 77 SMK in long range application match/target work, but are still a thin jacketed varmint style bullet design. Better terminal performance than SMKs, but not barrier blind compliant and not suitable IMO for serious hunting of large game or self-defense. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is in regards to SD Ammo, if you had 75gr Gold Dots, would you drop them for 77gr IMI OTM rounds ? TMK (Sierra Tipped Match King) bullets are better than 77 SMK in long range application match/target work, but are still a thin jacketed varmint style bullet design. Better terminal performance than SMKs, but not barrier blind compliant and not suitable IMO for serious hunting of large game or self-defense. Strong disagree. |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 1:18:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Strong disagree. How does it do through windshields, car doors, 2x4s or rifles/magazines? |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 1:50:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How does it do through windshields, car doors, 2x4s or rifles/magazines? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Strong disagree. How does it do through windshields, car doors, 2x4s or rifles/magazines? I’ll clarify, strong disagree for home defense. I don’t plan on defending myself through those mediums in that context. I don’t know how well specifically it’d perform, but while I’d bet it penetrates less optimally than a bonded bullet, I’d also bet it penetrates better than some here want to act. I’d bet it’d be fine realistically, it’s a windshield not a concrete wall. |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 2:03:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I couldn't afford a case, but I did buy 100 rounds. 10 to sight in, 90 to fill up three mags. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just bought a case of 77gr IMI so hopefully I picked right haha I couldn't afford a case, but I did buy 100 rounds. 10 to sight in, 90 to fill up three mags. I'm expecting my case to come in today. I was all excited but now after reading this thread I'm kinda bummed. It was gonna be my SHTF stuff. 
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Posted: 2/24/2021 2:04:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Well I have 1k of the IMI 77gr OTM in all of my "go to" mags. Guess I'm screwed
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Posted: 2/24/2021 2:10:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm expecting my case to come in today. I was all excited but now after reading this thread I'm kinda bummed. It was gonna be my SHTF stuff. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just bought a case of 77gr IMI so hopefully I picked right haha I couldn't afford a case, but I did buy 100 rounds. 10 to sight in, 90 to fill up three mags. I'm expecting my case to come in today. I was all excited but now after reading this thread I'm kinda bummed. It was gonna be my SHTF stuff. It’s suboptimal, but most of these discussions are more academic than real-world. In the real-world, you’re hitting someone with a high velocity rifle round. Results will reflect that. These discussions are more minor details within that discussion. What you have is fine. |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 2:39:28 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well I have 1k of the IMI 77gr OTM in all of my "go to" mags. Guess I'm screwed you and me both.
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Posted: 2/24/2021 2:40:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s suboptimal, but most of these discussions are more academic than real-world. In the real-world, you’re hitting someone with a high velocity rifle round. Results will reflect that. These discussions are more minor details within that discussion. What you have is fine. I hope so. I bought mainly because its a clone of what the Army uses, MK262, right? |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 3:36:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s suboptimal, but most of these discussions are more academic than real-world. In the real-world, you’re hitting someone with a high velocity rifle round. Results will reflect that. These discussions are more minor details within that discussion. What you have is fine. I wouldn’t loose any sleep if all I had was 262. Still way better then 193/855. |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 4:20:18 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I hope so. I bought mainly because its a clone of what the Army uses, MK262, right? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It’s suboptimal, but most of these discussions are more academic than real-world. In the real-world, you’re hitting someone with a high velocity rifle round. Results will reflect that. These discussions are more minor details within that discussion. What you have is fine. I hope so. I bought mainly because its a clone of what the Army uses, MK262, right? Yes, it is a clone of the military load. A load chosen as a workaround to the prohibition on expanding bullets in land warfare. We in the CONUS are not constrained by these laws of war and are free to choose the most optimal choice for our self defense needs which in my opinion is a bonded expanding type bullet. I chose to stock up on the Speer 64 grain Gold Dot when it was on sale for 50 cpr several years ago at PSA. It offers a good compromise between velocity and mass and is able to be stabilized in most AR Barrels encountered in the Civilian world such as the 1 in 9 and 1 in 8 twists. |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 4:37:02 PM EDT
[#19]
I think it'll do ok, I guess.
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Posted: 2/24/2021 7:59:06 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good point, esp if you're an apartment or urban dweller. Federal 50 grain HPs are very terminally effective without the risk of over penetration through walls, etc. I don't know, terminal effectiveness aside, I am not sure I would want all the extra meat damage and stray fragment fishing that a round like that would produce in a dear. An expanding round that stays in one piece seems like it would be a much more ideal choice with a lot less meat damage, and no worry about trying to fish out stray fragments from adjacent meat. I meant best choice in terms of ensuring ethical kills. You're right though, it does produce quite a bit of meat damage. There are other great options for ensuring ethical kills without destroying meat. I was just disagreeing with the guy who said that fragmenting rounds are insufficient for self defense. Unless I'm way off here, I'm pretty sure that meat damage would contribute quite a bit to quickly incapacitating a threat. |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 8:02:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How does it do through windshields, car doors, 2x4s or rifles/magazines? It does fine through most of those maybe with the exception of windshields, but I don't understand why windshield penetration is even a consideration for home defense. For duty use I can see your point...That said, I'd much rather use a round that does amazingly well on soft targets and ok on barriers, than one that does amazingly well on barriers and ok on soft targets. Especially within the confines of a house. |
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Posted: 2/24/2021 9:36:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It does fine through most of those maybe with the exception of windshields, but I don't understand why windshield penetration is even a consideration for home defense. For duty use I can see your point...That said, I'd much rather use a round that does amazingly well on soft targets and ok on barriers, than one that does amazingly well on barriers and ok on soft targets. Especially within the confines of a house. It's important for militia defense. 
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Posted: 2/24/2021 11:01:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Id honestly still take the 75gr gold dot even at 600 yards. I've found the 62 and 75gr gold dots to be exceptionally accurate when reloaded. My pet load with the 75gr gold dot is more accurate out of my rifles than imi razor core. And even at that distance the Gold dot is more likely to expand, at least to some degree, than the 77gr smk, which occasionally has trouble expanding at contact distance. Thats why I'd take the GD over the SMK, because I've seen 77gr SMKs icepick through deer and coyotes at under 30 yards. And its happened on several occasions. Ive never seen a gold dot fail to expand in tissue, even with a 75gr that I buddy shot up a does ass at almost 500yards (it was something dumb that he said he'd never do again lol, it was liken four hundred eighty something yards, and she ran surprisingly far, he said he felt bad after). But evenatrange the GD wins, and if barriers are to be an issue the GD wins hands down
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Posted: 2/24/2021 11:03:18 PM EDT
[#24]
77 gr TMK auto glass windshield performance is likely abysmal, judging by the performance of 168 gr TMK.
Personally I accept that tradeoff because of the improved performance on exposed targets, plus your standard house window is a far less difficult barrier than a car windshield. If you live in a van or a mansion your results may vary. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 1:31:28 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 77 gr TMK auto glass windshield performance is likely abysmal, judging by the performance of 168 gr TMK. Personally I accept that tradeoff because of the improved performance on exposed targets, plus your standard house window is a far less difficult barrier than a car windshield. If you live in a van or a mansion your results may vary. Yeah I’d actually be curious to see how the TMK performs on that sort of stuff. I’m not particularly worried about it as I don’t plan on having my home invaded by a pack of rogue Nissans, but I’d still be curious to see. And to be clear, personally if I were taking a rifle outside I’d carry it with Gold Dots. My bedside rifle has TMK. My ‘go bag’ and PC has mags loaded with Gold Dots. Actually my bedside rifle that’s loaded with TMK is zeroed for Gold Dots, it’s just that at indoor distances I don’t care either since it doesn’t matter. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 2:28:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I’d actually be curious to see how the TMK performs on that sort of stuff. I’m not particularly worried about it as I don’t plan on having my home invaded by a pack of rogue Nissans, but I’d still be curious to see. And to be clear, personally if I were taking a rifle outside I’d carry it with Gold Dots. My bedside rifle has TMK. My ‘go bag’ and PC has mags loaded with Gold Dots. Actually my bedside rifle that’s loaded with TMK is zeroed for Gold Dots, it’s just that at indoor distances I don’t care either since it doesn’t matter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 77 gr TMK auto glass windshield performance is likely abysmal, judging by the performance of 168 gr TMK. Personally I accept that tradeoff because of the improved performance on exposed targets, plus your standard house window is a far less difficult barrier than a car windshield. If you live in a van or a mansion your results may vary. Yeah I’d actually be curious to see how the TMK performs on that sort of stuff. I’m not particularly worried about it as I don’t plan on having my home invaded by a pack of rogue Nissans, but I’d still be curious to see. And to be clear, personally if I were taking a rifle outside I’d carry it with Gold Dots. My bedside rifle has TMK. My ‘go bag’ and PC has mags loaded with Gold Dots. Actually my bedside rifle that’s loaded with TMK is zeroed for Gold Dots, it’s just that at indoor distances I don’t care either since it doesn’t matter. I'm more scared of ballistic helmet with auto glass faceshield and body armor wearing zombie home invaders myself. I chose 62 MSR Fusion as my do it all round, but that was before 77gr TMK existed. If I had to do it again, I really don't know which of the two I'd choose. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 6:59:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm more scared of ballistic helmet with auto glass faceshield and body armor wearing zombie home invaders myself. I chose 62 MSR Fusion as my do it all round, but that was before 77gr TMK existed. If I had to do it again, I really don't know which of the two I'd choose. Fusion/gold dot is probably one of the best general purpose loads you can get. I’m a TMK guy myself, but I’d go with 62gr fusion msr or 75gr gold dot if I were to stock up on any other premium .223/5.56 ammo. You can’t really go wrong either way. Fusion/gold dot is somewhat unique in the sense that it does very well on barriers but is still devastating on soft targets. I’m not saying the tougher bonded soft points/tsx aren’t, but fusion and gold dot seem to be more traumatic on whitetail deer at least. |
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Posted: 2/25/2021 7:08:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fusion/gold dot is probably one of the best general purpose loads you can get. I’m a TMK guy myself, but I’d go with 62gr fusion msr or 75gr gold dot if I were to stock up on any other premium .223/5.56 ammo. You can’t really go wrong either way. Fusion/gold dot is somewhat unique in the sense that it does very well on barriers but is still devastating on soft targets. I’m not saying the tougher bonded soft points/tsx aren’t, but fusion and gold dot seem to be more traumatic on whitetail deer at least. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm more scared of ballistic helmet with auto glass faceshield and body armor wearing zombie home invaders myself. I chose 62 MSR Fusion as my do it all round, but that was before 77gr TMK existed. If I had to do it again, I really don't know which of the two I'd choose. Fusion/gold dot is probably one of the best general purpose loads you can get. I’m a TMK guy myself, but I’d go with 62gr fusion msr or 75gr gold dot if I were to stock up on any other premium .223/5.56 ammo. You can’t really go wrong either way. Fusion/gold dot is somewhat unique in the sense that it does very well on barriers but is still devastating on soft targets. I’m not saying the tougher bonded soft points/tsx aren’t, but fusion and gold dot seem to be more traumatic on whitetail deer at least. This is about where I’m at. The TSX stuff works fine terminally, but honestly it hasn’t impressed me as much on game relative to these other choices. It works fine but it definitely errs more on the side of penetration vs terminal effects within the depth of a chest cavity. I guess my thought is, at least on something without a super thick hide or hiding behind a cinder block or something weird (ie the vast majority of defensive uses) all of these rounds penetrate well enough to exit, so I’d just as soon be more devastating within that wound track. My results with TMK and GD are more or less interchangeable, but they’ve both been more effective than monometal/harder “traditional” hunting rounds. But for hunting, I could see why many would choose to err towards overpenetration to ensure exiting/blood trails, and for those worried about little shards of metal in their meat (something I’ve never actually encountered, despite using lots of TMKs). I prefer TMK in terms of raw performance, but do consider the GD/Fusion to probably be the more overall versatile round. The GD is also what I stock up on over the TMK. Part of it is because of that, and the other part is that it’s half the price 
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Posted: 2/28/2021 4:06:49 PM EDT
[#29]
Let's bear in mind that all discussions of any 5.56 round having "bad" terminal ballistics are just in comparison to other 5.56 rounds.
There's no .223 or 5.56 round in existence that actually has bad terminal ballistics. So we're really having a discussion about "which awesome choice is slightly more awesome than the other also-awesome choice". But expanding bullets are known to be more consistent and less dependent on velocity than fragmenting bullets. Everything about the 77gr OTM is designed to optimize long range accuracy, which is not necessarily important for a self defense round. So if given the choice, I'd go with the Gold Dot. |
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Posted: 3/1/2021 11:48:20 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The bullet used in the Hornady 75 grain TAP SBR load is not a bonded projectile. It does however utilize an array of cannelures intended to lock the lead core of the bullet to the gilding metal jacket. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/hornady_556_75_grain_sbr_powder_03_resiz-1830959.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/75_tap_sbr_sectioned_bullet_02_resized-1830958.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/75_grain_SBR_vs_75_grain_gold_dot_04_res-1830957.jpg ... Good to see you back, Molon. |
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Posted: 3/2/2021 9:25:41 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let's bear in mind that all discussions of any 5.56 round having "bad" terminal ballistics are just in comparison to other 5.56 rounds. There's no .223 or 5.56 round in existence that actually has bad terminal ballistics. So we're really having a discussion about "which awesome choice is slightly more awesome than the other also-awesome choice". This is not at all true. ALL fragmenting rounds have some percentage of failures to fragment or even yaw. That means a .224 caliber hole. That is the definition of bad performance. |
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Posted: 3/2/2021 3:41:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is not at all true. ALL fragmenting rounds have some percentage of failures to fragment or even yaw. That means a .224 caliber hole. That is the definition of bad performance. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Let's bear in mind that all discussions of any 5.56 round having "bad" terminal ballistics are just in comparison to other 5.56 rounds. There's no .223 or 5.56 round in existence that actually has bad terminal ballistics. So we're really having a discussion about "which awesome choice is slightly more awesome than the other also-awesome choice". This is not at all true. ALL fragmenting rounds have some percentage of failures to fragment or even yaw. That means a .224 caliber hole. That is the definition of bad performance. I don't know man, even tula 55 grain fmj, steel cased, can exhibit impressive performance (and that's out of a 7.5" barrel).  Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 3/2/2021 7:25:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know man, even tula 55 grain fmj, steel cased, can exhibit impressive performance (and that's out of a 7.5" barrel).  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUAFYW1eaDsThat was a 9" barrel, and it didn't have any fragmentation. I think the average fps was 2525, which is basically at the range where M193 does not fragment at all (2500 fps). Better than a sharp stick, but there are so many better options out there. |
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Posted: 3/2/2021 9:13:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was a 9" barrel, and it didn't have any fragmentation. I think the average fps was 2525, which is basically at the range where M193 does not fragment at all (2500 fps). Better than a sharp stick, but there are so many better options out there. That's exactly my point. It didn't even fragment but it yawed like a 5.45 round and caused massive tissue disruption, even at such a low velocity. Did you watch the video? |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 1:19:10 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's exactly my point. It didn't even fragment but it yawed like a 5.45 round and caused massive tissue disruption, even at such a low velocity. Did you watch the video? “Massive tissue disruption” in gel is a bit misleading. I seriously doubt that a non fragmenting steel cased 55 grain FMJ traveling at 2500fps would exhibit anywhere near that much damage in actual tissue. |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 4:39:23 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Massive tissue disruption" in gel is a bit misleading. I seriously doubt that a non fragmenting steel cased 55 grain FMJ traveling at 2500fps would exhibit anywhere near that much damage in actual tissue. Some bullets are better than others terminally. Others are better at specific tasks that have been covered in this thread. Some strike a great balance (Fusion, GD, TBBC, etc). Suppose my point is, we can and will argue preference of .224 pills until we're blue in the face. The vast majority of bullets that pop up in these threads are devastating. Can you do better than 77gr SMK? Yeah, I think we'd agree you can. Would I lose much sleep if that was in my HD rifle? Not a chance in hell. Here's one thing we can all agree on: no varmint bullets allowed 
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Posted: 3/3/2021 6:19:32 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're very likely right but it's fair to keep things in context (I mean that generally and am not accusing you of failing to do so). Even a 22 cal hole at rifle velocity is going to put a serious hurt on the recipient. Some bullets are better than others terminally. Others are better at specific tasks that have been covered in this thread. Some strike a great balance (Fusion, GD, TBBC, etc). Suppose my point is, we can and will argue preference of .224 pills until we're blue in the face. The vast majority of bullets that pop up in these threads are devastating. Can you do better than 77gr SMK? Yeah, I think we'd agree you can. Would I lose much sleep if that was in my HD rifle? Not a chance in hell. Quote HistoryQuoted: You're very likely right but it's fair to keep things in context (I mean that generally and am not accusing you of failing to do so). Even a 22 cal hole at rifle velocity is going to put a serious hurt on the recipient. Some bullets are better than others terminally. Others are better at specific tasks that have been covered in this thread. Some strike a great balance (Fusion, GD, TBBC, etc). Suppose my point is, we can and will argue preference of .224 pills until we're blue in the face. The vast majority of bullets that pop up in these threads are devastating. Can you do better than 77gr SMK? Yeah, I think we'd agree you can. Would I lose much sleep if that was in my HD rifle? Not a chance in hell. You're 100% correct, and I agree that the vast majority of .223/5.56 ammo will perform more than adequately in any reasonable situation. What I disagree with is the notion that: Quoted: There's no .223 or 5.56 round in existence that actually has bad terminal ballistics. Of course a .22 cal hole at rifle velocities can stop a threat, assuming proper shot placement, but that's still horrible performance compared to what a proper expanding or fragmenting rifle round is capable of doing. I just think that there are certain loads(non fragmenting 55gr steel case out of an SBR barrel, for example) that aren't just a bit less devastating than other choices, but are flat out bad performers in an absolute sense. Would I want to get shot by a non fragmenting 55gr tula steel case? Heck no, lol. Would I consider loading that stuff in my defensive mags? Nope. That said, I agree that 90% of the loads mentioned in this thread or any of the dozens of self defense threads on arfcom are pretty much top tier choices. You can probably tell at this point that I love me some 77gr TMK, but I would absolutely not hesitate to load my mags with TBBC, gold dot/fusion, MK262, TSX, MK318, or any other expanding/fragmenting load. Any of those choices would probably have just about the same effect on target. Even though they each have their pros and cons, it's obvious that they will all do the job just fine. So in that sense, I completely agree that many of us are getting a bit too wrapped up in the minutiae! Quoted: Here's one thing we can all agree on: no varmint bullets allowed That, and steel case FMJ out of short barrels  |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 9:25:27 AM EDT
[#38]
"Varmint" bullets are great for apartment and urban dwellers. Very devastating and massive disruption. Specifically Federal's 50 gr HP and Winchester's 45 gr HP.
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Posted: 3/3/2021 9:44:41 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know man, even tula 55 grain fmj, steel cased, can exhibit impressive performance (and that's out of a 7.5" barrel). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUAFYW1eaDsGo back and read what I wrote. I didn't say that they all couldn't or wouldn't yaw and or fragment. I said that some don't. The gel guys on YT always post best case performances, but they never talk about the bullets that fail. I've put enough rounds on flesh to know a lot of them do. And a 22 cal hole will NOT reliably stop a coyote, much less a hog. I dang sure don't want to trust my life to it stopping a real threat. |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 9:46:48 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Varmint" bullets are great for apartment and urban dwellers. Very devastating and massive disruption. Specifically Federal's 50 gr HP and Winchester's 45 gr HP. They penetrate 4-5 inches in coyotes. That is not great performance in any setting. |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 10:09:44 AM EDT
[#41]
The IMI gives nice tight groups in my 20" barrels, which I would be using at longer ranges and not in my home.
HD gun has 50 grain varmint loads that won't over penetrate into the neighbor's home. Not worried about shooting through windshields....YET.
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Posted: 3/3/2021 10:15:49 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: This is in regards to SD Ammo, if you had 75gr Gold Dots, would you drop them for 77gr IMI OTM rounds ? Across the living room (normal self defense ranges) I think either would make a bad guy fall over just fine. Use whichever you can find. |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 11:54:39 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They penetrate 4-5 inches in coyotes. That is not great performance in any setting. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: "Varmint" bullets are great for apartment and urban dwellers. Very devastating and massive disruption. Specifically Federal's 50 gr HP and Winchester's 45 gr HP. They penetrate 4-5 inches in coyotes. That is not great performance in any setting. I doubt it. A 22lr HP penetrates more than that in a coyote. |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 1:02:17 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I doubt it. A 22lr HP penetrates more than that in a coyote. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: "Varmint" bullets are great for apartment and urban dwellers. Very devastating and massive disruption. Specifically Federal's 50 gr HP and Winchester's 45 gr HP. They penetrate 4-5 inches in coyotes. That is not great performance in any setting. I doubt it. A 22lr HP penetrates more than that in a coyote. Well, probably so. It doesn’t fragment and retains its momentum as a single unit of mass. |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 4:08:45 PM EDT
[#45]
Here's what Dr. G.K. Roberts, an actual expert in the field of terminal ballistics, has to say about using varmint bullets for self-defense:
"Based on the LE agency and correctional facility shootings I have reviewed over the years, most lightweight 40-60 gr JHP and PT loads would not be ones I would willingly want to rely on to defend myself, my family, or innocent bystanders in a lethal force encounter." .... |
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Posted: 3/3/2021 6:46:51 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's what Dr. G.K. Roberts, an actual expert in the field of terminal ballistics, has to say about using varmint bullets for self-defense: "Based on the LE agency and correctional facility shootings I have reviewed over the years, most lightweight 40-60 gr JHP and PT loads would not be ones I would willingly want to rely on to defend myself, my family, or innocent bystanders in a lethal force encounter." .... |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 1:58:31 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Varmint" bullets are great for apartment and urban dwellers. Very devastating and massive disruption. Specifically Federal's 50 gr HP and Winchester's 45 gr HP. They've been shown to perform poorly in real life shootings, and its been proven time and time again. Famously the Hornady tap urban 55gr vmax failed to stop an18year old assailant in a Pennsylvania shooting, the suspect went on to nonfatally shoot one of the officers involved. Multiple rounds COM failed to stop him. There are several other incidents of varmint bullets failing to stop armed suspects. I've also personally had a bad experience with the 45gr winchester HP. I shot 2 coyotes with it, and both times had rounds break up and stop on the shoulder without penetrating, requiring multiple shots to kill. A 40gr 22lr will penetrate better than any high velocity varmint round because the bullet stays together and doesn't significantly deform to lose weight |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 9:32:41 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I doubt it. A 22lr HP penetrates more than that in a coyote. 22s aren't fast enough to expand reliably, so a 22 hp is basically a fmj/solid lead bullet. Varmint rounds are designed to expand rapidly enough that they don't exit, thus ruining the pelt. This is common knowledge to those who actually shoots animals. |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 4:15:25 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 22s aren't fast enough to expand reliably, so a 22 hp is basically a fmj/solid lead bullet. Varmint rounds are designed to expand rapidly enough that they don't exit, thus ruining the pelt. This is common knowledge to those who actually shoots animals. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I doubt it. A 22lr HP penetrates more than that in a coyote. 22s aren't fast enough to expand reliably, so a 22 hp is basically a fmj/solid lead bullet. Varmint rounds are designed to expand rapidly enough that they don't exit, thus ruining the pelt. This is common knowledge to those who actually shoots animals.  Winchester 22lr HPs expand quite a bit, fyi. 223 50 grain HP penetrates a more than 4"... |
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Posted: 3/4/2021 9:35:55 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OTM bullets are thin jacketed hollow points that were originally designed as accurate target bullets and for varmints. On human size targets or large game hey are unreliable in expansion and penetration. They rely on fragmentation which may be violent and impressive but shallow, might or might not penetrate, and if they don't yaw, can just make an icepick hole. They are in use by military primarily because of outdated Hague Convention nonsense. OTM is not a "jacketed hollow point" in the common usage of that term. OTM is not designed for expansion in the way that a JHP works. OTM is a projectile construction method, namely "base up" drawing of the copper jacket over the lead projectile. this is in contrast to the more common "nose down" drawing of the copper jacket over the lead projectile. the tiny hole at the tip of a OTM projectile is not intended to increase terminal expansion. the primary purpose of drawing the jacket "base up" is that the resultant finished base of the projectile is more uniform. and, in turn, that uniformity of the projectile base makes for a more uniform gas seal right at the moment of muzzle egress. this uniformity reduces epicyclic swerve, which is a fancy term for the effect given to the projectile when the the gas pressure is not quite uniform at muzzle egress. (it is, of course, paramount as well that the muzzle crown is also square to the bore and of uniform finish...) the homogeneity of the gas interface just as the bullet leaves the barrel is CRITICAL to the accuracy of a single round and the precision of a group of rounds (consistency). homogeneity means the relief of the gas pressure at the muzzle should be EXACTLY equal in every direction. any distortion in this area pushes the base of the bullet slightly in one direction, leading to (and/or exacerbating) epicyclic swerve due to the slight aerodynamic lift in the initial direction the base was tilted. so, all else being equal, OTM bullet construction generally results in both greater accuracy (due to reduction in epicyclic swerve) and greater precision (population variance). the small opening at the tip is a result of the jacket drawing process, and is not intended to increase expansion. also see: McCoy, R. L., “Modern External Ballistics, The Launch and Flight Dynamics of Symmetric Projectiles” i covered all this as well in this old post from 2012: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/What_does_OTM_mean_/16-562604/ OTM:  epicyclic swerve:  Pitch, Yaw and bullet path |
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