I've gotten back into semis after years of being into long-range boltguns (went over to them because building a precision AR-10, m1a was an exercise in frustration back then).

I never touch my 223s anymore. Seems like a logical solution to convert to Grendel... but...

It's difficult for someone who hasn't followed the cartridge wars in forever to get a grasp the general status of Grendel, even after a long heavy night of search engineering.

Love the ballistic charts. No questions there.

Some threads talk about rising availability, Serbia adopting it, how 308 spec will never be standardized and Grendel is the future.

Threads dated from the same month talk about it dying out, 2 competing chamber specs, massive PPU recall, no cheap ammo other than underpowered steel, and the military adopting a different 6.5 better in every way.

It also seems like the community is split 50/50 over which magazines work and which are bad designs. There is no benchmark equivalent to the P-mag.

...Good time to get into Grendel or stick to my boltguns & keep my 223 as unused shtf guns?

Is it better at LR yes, but you pay for it with the 556 advantages

If you want to shoot LR then get it, if you think it just better than 556 then no.

I would say growing and keep an eye on it.  Lack of pmags is probably the only downside now.  Lots of hunting and match loads commercially available plus 23 cent/round wolf 100gr for plinking.  Hits much harder vs 5.56 and definitely better long range

Because of the renewed interest in PRS Gas Gun matches and other groups, I have decided to jump in. I am building a precision rifle using 6.5G. The new interest with a decent existing community and improving ammo support makes 6.5G a good investment.

I have a .308 precision bolt gun and I have no interest in AR10 style rifles.

I thought the 6.8 was the one with 2 different chamber specs.  I didn't know Grendel suffered that same situation.

The availability of 6.5 Grendel barrels and bolts has improved greatly since Odin, Wolf, Bear Creek Armory, Ballistic Advantage and Faxon have started production.   Federal now is producing  the 120 grain SMK, 130 grain Berger Match, 120 grain Fusion and 90 grain TNT factory ammo.  Hornady is selling the 123 grain SST and 123 grain Black ELD M which replaced the A-Max.   Precision Fierarms, Les Baer and Alexander Arms also sell factory ammo.  The Wolf 120 grain MPT is still on the market as is the 100 grain Wolf FMJ steel cased ammo manufactured by Branual in Russia.

The problems you see with magazines typically are quality control issues.  The new CPD mags as well as E-Lander get good reviews but I have several original C Products and ASC mags which still function properly.   Sometimes tweaking the feed lips is all that is required to fix a troublesome mag.   I have found that loading new mags to capacity and letting them set loaded helps prior to the first range trip.


I personally don't see the 6.5 Grendel fading in the sunset as it is a inherently accurate cartridge plus make a good intermediate hunting cartridge.

I'm new to Grendel and went that way for alternate reasons.
The caliber is fine, it is what, IMHO, the AR/M16 should be, and the magazines are gaining ground, along with bullet and ammunition offerings.

I have a couple of 5 rounder magazines that are no drama shooters. People seem to get into trouble with the high-cap, and they would be more popular with some increased interest.

Get what you like. Asking others that are dedicated to different calibers is not productive in general. They will try to steer you to what they are familiar with out of just being familiar, mostly.

I never heard of Grendel until rather recently, never seen one in the wild and only see very few casings at my range. that is probably only because of the steel cased ammo available now. BTW, my rifle shoots that just fine. 1-1.5 in groups at 100 yards. Not bench, but not a bench round either.

It has taken a popular turn even though so many believe the 6.8 SPC is all that and a bag of chips. they are good rounds, but don't have the legs the Grendel does. 6.8 couldn't pull me from the 5.56/223, but Grendel did.

Still love my standard AR. Love the Grendel more every time I shoot it though.

Ive fought the grendel bug for some time now. Just dont like that you need special parts and mags to use it, which is why i had been looking into something like the 6x45 or 20 practical.

I happen to find a hell of a deal on a 277 wolverine upper with lots of extras and jumped on it. It will keep me busy and distracted for several months.

I dont have easy access to a range farther than 400 yds so the long range aspect of the grendel doesnt entice me. But i do have a buddy in our gun club who has one and it really is a hell of a cartridge.

48 factory loads as of this year and growing. (AA, Federal, Hornady, PF, Wolf)

LaRue just introduced complete rifles and uppers, along with the Ultimate Builder's kit with drop down menu parts and color selection.



I don't really compare Grendel with 5.56 because it's not fair to the 5.56.  Grendel's popularity has a lot of steam behind it for hunters and TGT shooting, so for me, it ended up making .308 obsolete.  The .308 has more energy at the muzzle, but most factory loads don't retain it well, and muzzle blast prevents you from following through with your sight picture, unlike with the Grendel.  The Grendel also starts to close in on the .308 for retained energy, until it matches it when looking at M80 147gr and 168gr SMK.  The 175gr SMK still retains its energy better, but lacks the wind deflection of a 123gr ELD-M, SMK, or Scenar, and certainly doesn't fair well against the 130gr Bergers.

In the AR15, it handles more like a 5.56, and hits more like a .308 Win., with half the recoil and less wind drift than most of the factory .308 TGT loads (155gr AMAX, 168gr SMK, 175gr SMK).  The only factory .308 load I'm aware of that beats a 6.5mm 123gr ELD-M, SMK, or Scenar for wind drift is the 185gr Berger, but the 130gr 6.5mm Grendel factory loads match that (Federal introduced the 130gr Berger OTM Hybrid this year in the Gold Medal Match line, and PF has had 130gr Berger and now the Berger Hybrid loads as well.)

It's one of the very few cartridges out there that has:

SAAMI standardization
CIP standardization
Federal Gold Medal Match
Wolf steel case
Hornady ELD-M and SST
Nosler Accubond Long Range factory ammo

That should give you a good indication of where it is, and where it's going.

Comparing 5.56 TGT loads
For those that are familiar with what 5.56 77gr Mk.262 looks like at 400-600yds, Grendel blows it away for wind drift, hit probability, and energy on target.  I have tons of premium TGT bullets for 5.56/.223, but every time I try to go load them, I look at all my Grendel components, and see the FOV through the spotting scope or my own rifle scope in my mind, replaying the 2, and I don't end up loading .223 anymore.  The hit probability alone goes way up, and I see this in my DM courses where we'll have multiple .223 Wylde, .308, and Grendel carbines on the line next to each other.  You have less wind drift than the .308, a little more recoil than the 5.56, but can see your own shot through to the TGT like you can with 5.56, but can't really with .308 that well.

How Grendel changes the AR15 for hunting
It is the most versatile and capable hunting cartridge you can chamber in the AR15, that double-stacks in mags, especially when you SBR it.  The list of hunting ammunition and projectiles is so long, that I've barely scratched the surface on testing different loads for it after 6 years of regular work attempting to (there are close to 100 hunting bullets alone).  The 129gr Nosler Accubond LR is the premium cup and core bullet to beat, with a .553 G1 BC and 1300fps expansion threshold.  Testing on hogs has shown immediate expansion within the 1st inch of penetration, followed by impressive destructive liquefaction of the lungs and heart, with full penetration to the other side.

Even the 123gr SST penetrates hog shoulder plates, then destroys the tissue behind, with very good performance and quick kills, based on years of weekly terminal performance studies.

The 100gr TTSX is another fast killer on hogs and deer, with full penetration and perforation of the thorax even from quartering shots.  We've also been doing experiments with cut down Hornady GMXs in the 94-105gr weight range, which is an impressive bullet with a lower expansion threshold.  The 120gr TSX has been used to take a lot of medium and even large game with quick kills.  Your solid bullets perform more like a cup and core bullet 1.4-1.5x their weight when looking at penetration and expanded weight, since cup and core bullets lose a lot of their nose mass during expansion.

Think of a 120gr solid like a 168-180gr cup and core bullet, with high impact speed, but way higher RPMs due to Grendel's tighter rates of twist (1/7.5"-1/8").  

For hunting though, the 123gr SST is the most popular bullet, and Hornady sells boat loads of that factory ammo.  Litz BC on it is higher than a .308 168gr SMK, so it retains its energy well, is spinning anywhere from 220,000-240,000rpm on impact, and has a lot of sectional density to see itself through the vitals.

18" JP Grendel, 127gr LRX, Oryx


16" Grendel, 123gr SST, 16yr-old huntress, suppressed, DRT:


JP Complete 18" 6.5 Grendel, Barnes bullet


20" 6.5 Grendel, 125gr Nosler Partition Hand Load, Young Bull Elk, no tracking required



~18" Lilja 9rd rapid at 100yds:



Same load, same rifle, 1000yds:




It's basically a do-all cartridge for the AR15, certainly an amazing TGT and hunting cartridge unlike anything I can think of when looking at all the cartridges out there.  For example, an 11.5" Grendel has more energy at 400yds than a 20" .30-30/150gr RN has at 200yds.

A 10.5" Grendel has more energy than a 16.3" AK shooting the same bullet weight after 50yds, and beats the 20" SKS by 100yds, again shooting the same bullet weight (123gr), from the same basic case.

You have to ask yourself, "Why am I hunting with a 16" or 20" 7.62x39 when I could be hunting with a 10.5" suppressed AR15, with more impact speed and retained energy on target, with way faster twist rate and RPM on the bullet, with close to 100 different projectiles to choose from?"

You've pretty much sold me.  But I want a bolt gun for range / hunting.   I guess I'll have to see who is all making them.  

I like how you can get cheap ammo.  Moreso than Creedmore or even 300 BO.  But I don't like how it's not as available as either.  Or doesn't seem to be.  In your case, handloading makes a big difference.  (I realize BO is not in the same league distance shooting wise.  But maybe for hunting at closer range it's an option for something more than a 5.56).

I have no dog in this fight..................

But the 6.5 Grendel has been out for what........ 5-8 yrs now.......... maybe longer........

Several posters have made good arguments for it................

But it still hasn't taken over the AR community.................  Why?

Ammoseek 6.5 Grendel 171 hits

I haven't seen ammo availability as an issue for at least 7 years now, especially after Hornady got in the game.

I shoot as much factory ammo as I do hand loads, just alternate my strategy to correspond with seasonal prices.

When ammo costs go down after rifle season, and you can buy Hornady factory 123gr SST or AMAX/now ELD-M for $15-$16/box, I buy in bulk.

When spring and summer blasting season starts to kick in, I load.

For bolt guns, there are dozens of SKUs now between Howa and CZ.  Last I checked, Howa has 30 SKUs in the Mini line for Grendel, and I have the 22" Kryptek Sporter version.  It's a very lightweight rifle that handles extremely well in the hands, much better than the Howa 1500 short actions, which are pretty light themselves.

Reticle barely moves when shooting bipod/rear bag, no muzzle brake at all, with 123gr ammo.  Recoil is negligible.  The gun just doesn't move much, and I watch my own hits though the scope on 10x appear on the steel even at 375yds.  Kinda feels like shooting an air rifle that hits the steel with a lot of energy.

Howa Mini.  If you step up to a short action you might as well go with a creedmore.

14 years, which isn't nearly long enough to dethrone long established rounds.  

Nothing is going to take over the AR community from 5.56 for a long time.

You also have had several cartridges introduced that the AR15 can be chambered in before and during this time.

The first main one was 7.62x39 by Colt in the late 1980s.

.300x221 Fireball/Whisper came after from JD Jones of SSK.

Several other people jumped on the 7.62x39 wagon without doing due diligence with their engineering, RDT&E, bore diameters, bolts, extractors, and assembly methods.

Alexander Arms developed the .50 Beowulf and later the .221 Ghengis AR15s (5.45x39).

.458 SOCOM was the 2nd big bore AR15 cartridge.

6.8 SPC came out in 2003.

6.5 Grendel came out in 2003.

Olympic Arms introduced the WSSM OA-15s in 300 OSSM, 243 WSSM, and 257 WSSM.

D-TECH also offered uppers in the WSSM line.

AAC and Remington re-branded the 300 Whisper as the 300 AAC Blackout and pushed it really hard in the marketing department.

Ruger did the .204 Ruger.

Hornady and Bushmaster developed the .450 Bushmaster as the 3rd major big bore for the AR15.

Remington developed the .30 RAR R-15, with a new upper receiver, enlarged bolt, dog leg extractor, AR10 diameter barrel extension, and single feed position magazine.

Hornady introduced the 6mm Hagar.

Nosler just introduced the 22 Nosler.

Tony Rumore introduced the .375 SOCOM recently.

So there has been a pretty steady dust-up of new chamberings for the AR15 ever since Colt did the 7.62x39 Sporter.  We're at least 28 years into new cartridge development or adaptation to the AR15, some of which have taken hold in the market, while others haven't.

I read a statistic recently that 90% of all AR15s newly manufactured are chambered in 5.56 NATO.  That remaining 10% is a huge and growing number, especially considering how many people are now hunting with AR15s.

Given how wide the playing field is in alternative chamberings, and the military standardization of 5.56 NATO, it should come as no surprise to anyone that 5.56 NATO is and will be the dominant chambering of the AR15, with 60 years of ammunition and magazine development behind it.

I do believe that 6.5 Grendel will be the most popular variant chambering though as time goes on, if it isn't already.  Steel case and the other factory ammo offerings are the driving force behind that, along with the superior performance of 6.5 Grendel to all the other chamberings, minus the WSSMs, which require a complete redesign of the upper and critical stress-bearing parts, along with single feed magazines.

We haven't seen a lot of rifle makers respond to it initially because of the growing popularity of DIY builds, although several companies have been making it from close to the start, like Les Baer, JP, Double Star, Saber Defense (forced out of business), Templar, and Precision Firearms.

Colt Competition actually had rifles at SHOT several years ago, but that arrangement faded away with the company they were working with.

LaRue just introduced 6.5 Grendel rifles and uppers, as well as DIY Ultimate Builder's parts kits, which has been an interesting development for 6.5 Grendel.

AR10
One of the main reasons there hasn't been as much traction with the variant AR15 cartridges is because everyone and their brother introduced an AR10-type rifle over this same time frame, and a lot of people thought that was the route to go instead of piddling around with the smaller AR15 frame.  They are basically in the same shoes many of us were 10-15 years ago, about to find out how bad it sucks carrying an SR25-sized frame .308 around in the mountains or woods, let alone how hard they are to manage sight picture with for follow-through unless you shoot .243 Win.

A lot of companies, LaRue included, knew they could get 2-3x the price for AR10-type rifles and make way better margins than on AR15s, which have seen a lot of prices decline.  As soon as Aero and then Palmetto broke down the sub-$1000, then sub-$700 FakeR-10 market, the companies who were making good margins on 7.62 NATO rifles started to see a new entrants competitive market, so now it makes sense to revive AR15 sales with 6.5 Grendel, which has higher hit probability than the .308, with half the recoil, and fits in the AR15, especially since Grendel is supported by everything from steel case to Federal Gold Medal Match.

That's why you don't see anything really taking the market by storm, but I'll bet in 10 years, you'll all see a lot more 6.5 Grendels at your local ranges, in DM courses, and with people you know.  Wolf Performance introduced a $399 upper to go along with the ammo.

That's a beautiful gun.

CMMG now making factory Grendel rifles in their Anvil receiver set:



Another major name in the industry is about to launch their Grendel line as well, one of the most respected AR15 and AR10 manufacturers there is.

That's in addition to LaRue, who offers both factory Stealth Grendel rifles and DIY build kits with LaRue billet receivers.  They also just opened up LaRue billet lowers for those that order Ultimate AR Build Kits.

Any 6.5g bolt guns have threaded barrels?

Not yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Ruger doesn't release a bolt action in 6.5 Grendel soon.  Ruger just released the 7.62 X 39 in American Rifle Ranch with a threaded barrel.   All it would take is a barrel change for Ruger to release a 6.5 Grendel bolt action.   Mini 30's converted to 6.5 Grendel usually use 6.8 SPC Ruger mags for the Mini 14 so it's feasible.

Cause the SEALs don't use it.

If SOCOM had a MK18 in 6.5G you would see everyone flocking to it.

I shoot at a range that has tons of steel from 100-1250y and the Grendel crowd is growing rapidly. I see more 6.5's (G&CM) than 5.56 guns to be honest.

OP, the cartridge is growing more popular and being supported by more vendors, from what I am seeing.

Regarding the magazines, grab the AA E-Landers, if you want the consensus "best."

Then again you have competition form the newer rounds like the 224 Valkyrie..................

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/10/06/ar-15s-creedmoor-224-valkyrie-vs-22-nosler-6-5-grendel-modern-intermediate-calibers-025/

That is with a 90gr VLD and not the SMK factory load though............

Alot of interesting choices these days.......................

It's discussed here:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-224-Valkyrie/16-719055/

Very interested to see what my grendel build can do.  I like the comparison here-12" grendel with can (and a long one to boot) vs an 18" 5.56 without. An interesting comparison of external and internal ballistics...  

If the grendel build will shoot, it may call to my attention whether I need the spr

Attached File

as i said above, i was interested after the PRS success, but i WILL wait on the .224V. I imagine there will be others going to .224V now vs building 6.5G. Regardless, i doubt that 6.5G is going anywhere.

Attached File


Attached File


20" Lilja, 16" B.A. Hanson.

Just had both out with 123 Amax (no longer made, now the ELD-M).  Both sub-MOA, and very easy shooting, and light weight relative to a .308 equivalent.

I sold all my .308's and haven't looked back, that being said I do have an RPR in 6.5 creed to compliment the Grendel.

If Magpul or ETS would get off their asses and make a magazine for this platform, it would be perfect.

I feel optimistic the mags will come.

Magpul says they have no intention of releasing 6.5 Grendel mags.  The Polymer construction limits available space with the AR-15 mag well for the larger 6.5 Grendel cartridge.   A steel lined polymer body mag like Lancer might be feasible.   I really don’t have any mag related issues once I tweaked my one troublesome ASC 24 round mag.  My other 6.5 Grendel mags have been gtg.   I usually don’t load my 14 round ASC or C Products mags (same size as 5.56 twenty round mag) with more than ten rounds.   The 14 round mags with the shape of twenty round straight 5.56 are probably the least reliable 6.5 Grendel mags from a design standpoint.   The recent E-Lander and curved C Products Defense mags are getting very good reviews.  I have a few E-Lander mags and they have been gtg.  I haven’t purchased any CPD mags as I have numerous 6.5 Grendel mags.

Just out curiosity, do you have this stuff saved and just copy and paste or do you actually type it out every time this comes up.

FWIW, here in Southern California I can't find a LGS within 40 miles of Los Angeles (and that includes Walmart) that sells 6.5 Grendel.  Over the past few months, I've been stockpiling (hoarding?) 6.5 Grendel via on-line orders - and that option goes away on January 1 (new state law goes into affect that on-line ammo sales are a no-no). And being the law abiding citizen that I am, should I run low on 6.5 Grendel, I can't go to Nevada and bring some over. New state law also makes that illegal.

Growing at my house.

Sold my 300 BO and 7.62x39 uppers.

Sold my DPMS AR-10 308 w/2 bbls.

Just put my LWRC gas piston 223 upper for sale on GB.

Just bought a 6.5 G AA upper on that "other" site, it will go on the LWRC lower.

"Down" to my AUG, R15 223 and now this.

AUG and this can use GEMTECH ONE can I have.

6.5 G ---- perfect for Yotes and speed goats.

Three 6.5s now (6.5 G, CM and X55) soon to be four (6.5x300 Bee custom No. 1)

I typed that and linked all that on the fly.  I should have it copied somewhere so I can paste it though.

The only think I have copied is the Grendel SBR performance compared to 20" .30-30 Winchester with a 150gr, where the 11.5" Grendel has more energy at 400yds than a 20" 150gr .30-30 does at 200yds.

Holy shit... I think you just answered all questions I was likely to ask with that chart.

I don't know why it came out so blurry.

I even tried to sharpen it up, but it's still blurry.

I hope it's growing and what I've seen it seems to be. My next build will be a 6.5 Grendel, I want an all-round rifle for yotes, deer, hogs and bears, I think the 6.5 will fit this roll. That way when I head to the woods, it's the only one I reach for.

Will probably equip it with thermal down the road too.

It certainly seems to be on its way up. It has a lot going for it. I'm in the process of adding a couple to the stable, a 12.5 BA upper for my SBR lower, and a 16" BA build. If it goes well I may add a 20" build as well.

My 16" Grendel was my go to rifle for everything until recently. Now with the 10.5" 5.56 barrel in the SBR being replaced with a Lilja 11.5" grendel, I don't see why I should keep the 16" and not replace it wih a 20 or 22" grendel. Even took my turkey this year on the ft Carson training areas with the 16" grendel and it was boringly easy

Just had mine out again today.
After shooting it for about 6 mths., i am sold.

Shooting it back to back with a 5.56 really lets the
better punch of the Grendel show itself.

And, i am shooting one of the $400 Wolf uppers.
It has ran 100% since day one.

Get Both.

I would not own an AR15 without a 5.56 upper.  Reasons and all.  If I am just out blasting and having fun under 250 yards or so I will stick with my 5.56.  I can hunt with a 5.56 within reason and have done it.

If I am reaching WAY out or want a more capable upper for hunting I toss on the 6.5 upper.  Grendels have a place, precision and knock down.  If you have no need for either don't get one.

If you are planning for SHTF a Grendel is a POOR choice.  Because even though there are choices in ammo does not mean that it is stocked everywhere.  My LGS has it because folks hammer hogs and deer with it.  The local Walmart does not.

7-11 carries 5.56.  LOL

If the USA started playing with it, then it would be everywhere.  The DOD is not replacing the 5.56 in the next 20 years or more.

I'm with you.  I want a 6.5g so I can swap uppers to get more range/hunting penetration over 5.56, but I'm not about to drop my 5.56 uppers or anything.

I bought into the AR for home defense and SHTF use primarily because 5.56 and the AR platform are what is in current use by lots of agencies/military and is much more likely to have a better supply of spare parts, ammo, etc. should scrounging be necessary.

Ammo cost.  That's it.  Period.

People like cheap, and until a box of 20 rounds of decent Grendel ammo costs $10, it will not warm the hearts of the masses.

LOL... What do you think?

I can guarantee if the local Simpson's Hardware (really the best "man" store in my AO) put a pallet of Grendel Wolf or AE on the floor they would sell every rifle they had that would shoot it.  The local boys would LOVE to have the Grendel option but many have no idea it is out there.  FBHO sold a bunch of rifles out of fear that the left wold take arms, now it is up to the gun companies to actually SELL their products to the masses.  They don't have the fear sales anymore.

Winchester did a good job with the WSM rifles in the early to mid 2000s, but then FBHO got elected and everyone bought out of panic versus for function and the WSMs kinda faded (I have a hammer with my 270WSM but it hammers back).  I think it is kinda like baseball, if you build it, they will come.

For real world use, I feel the Grendel is the best cartridge out there for the AR15 platform to sell it, it has to be on the shelves enmass, rifles and ammo.