AR Sponsor
Posted: 8/21/2007 4:27:38 PM EDT
| Let's try this topic.....anyone have hands on experience with soft points? I read an article by Dr. Fackler a couple of years ago that said he believed the 64g Power Point was the most lethal for police work. Subsequently, the CA Highway Patrol made it their duty issue ammo. I've taken deer with them and they worked great but your input would be appreciated. |
|
Damn, don't you know? If it's not full power M193 FMJ or MK262, you might as well be throwing rocks. Well not really, but that's what some people would like you to believe. It depends on what you want to do with it, but a quality soft point like that should fill many roles. I'd rather have mags full of that round vs. M193. |
You haven't read all of the Ammo FAQ entries it appears. Bonded SP bullets perform very well against barriers, especially tough auto glass. This is a prime concern for LEOs. My 10 year old son has also taken two deer with the 64gr PP. On the other hand, a fragmenting bullet has a larger permanent cavity due to fragmentation, which is *usually* better for performance when barriers are not an issue. |
| Dr. Fackler referenced fragmentation in his article. However, he also stated in a mildly PC manner that in military applications, it isn't a problem to wound an enemy. However, in police applications, they needed to stop the BG as quickly and permanently as possible. It was with this reference that he discussed the 64g PP. Further, he also stated they would fragment at normal velocities but would also mushroom like a 30 cal. at slower velocities which was an advantage for shorter bbl rifles. Can anyone validate his statements with their own experiences? Thoughts? |
I wish that I did.....I had a magazine with the article (operative word HAD) that, going from memory, said the 64g PP would break at the cannelure and partially fragment at MV's of 2900 fps or greater. I've googled every combination I can think of but haven't found it yet. Sorry. |
There is on Winchester Premium. It's designed for Auto/semi auto and is exactly what the CAHP uses. It's also moly coated and runs about $22/20 the last time I checked. |
|
The Win 64 PP sold as a component (projectile) does not have a cannelure. My favorite projectile I might add. I was unaware of the cannelure on the factory loaded ammo. Interesting, I would like to run this bullet with a cannelure. FWIW None of my recovered bullets were fragged and were quite uniformly mushroomed. .02 |
What you said is my point exactly. I've read over and over how some people think if they don't have military 193 or 262 then they are throwing rocks. I'm not saying those are bad rounds, I'm just saying that soft points are often overlooked. |
Agreed....especially at closer ranges. And in general as the range increases they'll stay together a bit better. No expert here, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.  RG |
No Josh they are not. SPs have their uses, but most of us as citizens don't have a need to defeat barriers/auto glass where the bonded SPs really shine. As Zhukov pointed out the permanent wound channel caused by a good fragmenting round (say the 75gr OTM used in the TAP line, or the 77gr SMK used in the Mk262) is much larger than the wound channel caused by the Power Point. The point obout short barrels would be relavant if we were discussing M193, but the heavy OTMs fragment at much lower velocities than the light FMJ round. You just got to match your needs to proper round. Some guys are better served with the 64gr PP or maybe the 60gr Nosler Partition; others would do better with the heavy OTMs. There is no one bullet optimized for all conditions. |
| I've wondered for a while why the Noslers don't get more attention. After handloading the partitions in my 270 and 300 Win for 35 years, my experience is they will lose 40% of their weight in the first 6-8" due to fragmentation in front of the partition causing a significant wound channel. They also consistently keep right on going usually exiting a game animal regardless of angle. Theoretically, they should be one heck of a performer in a variety of these types of applications. |
I shot a Coyote last year in Upsate NY that I'd guesstimate was in the 40/45 lb range. I shot it using a Federal Premium .223 60 grain Nosler Partition, at about 75/80 yards. It was an angling away shot that entered in the ribs and exited through the off side shoulder. Complete pass through, but a bit of mess on the off side shoulder. I'm sure the shoulder caused that bullet to blow up a bit. The result was of course one very dead Coyote, bang/flop.....I'd be willing to bet that if I'd have had a double lung shot, it would have passed through with no problem. It was the first blood drawn with my new Bushy Predator I have no doubt that this load would certainly kill a deer, especially if you get a good broadside lung shot. I also shot NP's in my .260, 125 grain. I've killed 4 deer so far using this load and have been EXTREMELY happy with them.......lightning in a bottle!!!! RG |
|
Rusty, I agree.....they are great game stoppers. While there are many good newer products by Barnes, etc. I just can't figure out why the NP's aren't used for more premium AR applications. Especially when they offer EVERYTHING that everyone seems to be looking for like 40% fragmentation, accuracy, deep penetration, etc. Personally, I don't see the need to work up loads for my hunting rifles on the newer stuff when the Noslers perform like they do and were so far ahead of their time. When did they come out.....in the 40's? |
| I shot some soft points through my AR at a 200 yrd target and they were not accurate. My thought was that the slam into the feedramp was distorting the lead tip and affecting accuaracy. I don't recall the brand, just that I have not purchases soft point ammo since. |
|
"Personally, I don't see the need to work up loads for my hunting rifles on the newer stuff when the Noslers perform like they do and were so far ahead of their time. When did they come out.....in the 40's" Maybe they are not the curent rage like Hornady TAP and the military bullets or the Sierras.I personally use the Nosler 168 grainJ4 for my silhouette shooting and feel they are better and use their bullets in my 7WSM and 223 WSSM and they are accurate and game stoppers to boot |
|
I believe the Nosler partitions are used in the DEA loading are they not? I also believe they are not a good barier round compared to the TBBC and not a good terminal performer compared to OTM ronds. What bullet is Hornady using in their barrier round? I thought it was this one as well. I view them like an El Camino... not a good car and not a good truck. |
Ok, fair enough, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but what exactly is the need for most citizens? Are we talking about hunting, home defense, a combat scenario, target shooting, etc? From the way everyone talks about fragmentation in a soft target, it sounds like they are preparing for either home defense or an all out combat situation where everyone is out in the open with no cover. I'm just curious, I have read so much information on this site and others over the past several years that is contradictory. Also I have no dog in the fight anyway, I do shoot .223 but would prefer a 7.62/30-06 in most situations. Especially barrier penetration. |
That is for the citizen to decide . Not trying to avoid the question, But what I see as my needs and situation may not be what you need.
Bingo! Like when we discuss "rifle vs carbine" in the AR Discusion section you have to define your NEED before the rifle (or ammo) can be discussed. When people ask about home defense we'll recommend the OTMs because they perform the best against soft tissue. I shouldn't have much need for barrier penetration in my home - and most of us are not going to be involved in combat outside (if you are odds are Uncle Sam is issuing you the ammo you will use). If your need is hunting. Well the guys in the Outoors:Hunting forum will gladly talk about which SP is best, as will many of us here.
Personally if I think barriers are possibly an issue - I'm leaving home with my 6.8. 
|
That is no joke. Speaking of barriers, I had read that the 06' will shoot through a large amount of wood, so one day I tried it with a Garand and regular M2 ball. At 100yds there were no exit holes. Stepped back to 200 yds, fired 5 rounds, and there were 5 exit holes on the back of this live tree, upwards of 30"+ diameter  Anyhow, back to our regularly scheduled programming! |
With all due respect, DevL, NP's have been used all over the world on all kinds of game, including dangerous game, for decades. IMHO, the only reason they haven't been used in AR,SD, or HD situations is that, until recently, they were in *limited* supply and were very premium priced as compared to the typical FMJ or hunting round. Do they penetrate barriers like a solid.....no, but more than most. Do they fragment like more popular OTM rounds.....pretty damn close! As with anything in life, it's all about appropriate compromise and that's how I see the NPs.....a round that will do a very respectable job of just about whatever task it is used for. I would love to see a side-by-side comparison with the 75g TAP as it may surprise a bunch of folks. It's certainly no El Camino. |
AR Sponsor