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Posted: 3/16/2007 10:57:32 AM EDT
| Whats the difference in .223 soft point and hollow point? Thanks |
What I mean is what is the difference when they hit something. Do they both mushroom, or does 1 fragment and 1 mushrooms? Thanks |
+1. There are several other factors which affect bullet performance, such as jacket construction and thickness. Most of the combloc SP bullets with steel jackets don't expand for example. |
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Never got an answer to your question did you CR85Rider did you? Let me try. Say I was shooting Remington Express .223 55gr HP and Remington Express .223 55gr SP at ballistic gelatin on the same day at 50 yards. All this is done at sea level, 85 degrees, 90 percent humidity, no wind, from a bench, wearing blue jeans, and a hat. Need anything else to answer the question? |
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I’ve found that the most important factor in bench testing is whether you wear cotton or wool thermal underwear. ;) But I am also watching this thread with interest. I think the thrust of the point is “Considering the same velocity, and same weight bullet, loaded to the same pressure, what differences will become apparent between a SP bullet and a HP bullet?” My theory (and I have nothing to back this up with) is that a hollow point bullet in a .22 is too small to make much difference. If you have a .45ACP hydro-Shok then sufficient liquid can enter the cavity to cause mushrooming. I just don’t see that happening with a .22 hollow point. The polymer tips may mushroom because of the mechanical forces of the tip being driven into the bullet, but the hydraulic forces I just don’t see them having that effect. I guess the hollow point is more a by product of the design of the bullet rather then a conscious effort to promote mushrooming. In fact, many police departments have complained over the years that the typical open tipped match bullet, the sierra 168- grain 7.62mm lacks expansion. In shootings and in testing in ballistic gelatin it is no better and sometimes worse then, the same weight full-metal-jacket bullet in terminal performance. |
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A 55 grain soft point may fragment, it may mushroom, it may just yaw and do nothing else. It all depends on the individual load. Even different soft point of the same weight and same velocity can do any of these things. A HP may fragment, it may expand and mushroom, it may do nothing but yaw. It all depends on the individual load. Does that answer the question sufficently? There are no generalisations that can be made about classes of bullets... only specific comments on specific loads. Is a car faster than a truck? Are we talking Porshe vs. Ford F-150? Are we talking about a Ford Lightning vs a Civic? The answer is different for each different specific comaprison. You cant generalise there either. Make sense? |
Are you shooting this in a 1:7, 1:8, 1:9, 1:12, or ??? 20", 16", 10.5"??? Pure ballistic gelatin or including simulated bone???  I don't pretend to be an bullet expert but based on the vagueness of the original question, how would you have answered, 11BDad? At least with the scenario you gave, we know we are now looking at Core-Lokt PSP vs. the Power-Lokt HP - you should see OK expansion with OK weight retention in the PSP while the HP should expand/fragment pretty well at 50yds. Now if this HP was a Barnes Triple-X, you would probably have seen great penetration and reliable expansion (no explosion), while a Hornady SP (Super Explosive) would fragment like a grenade. These 'little details' are important in the grand scheme of things. Now do you see where I am coming from? |
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DevL, Are you an engineer? I'm willing to bet you are. Generalizations have no place in engineering or ballistics. You are correct. But for the rest of us a generalization is necessary to begin to understand what is happening. In my line of work people are always asking, “How likely is it that…” or “What are the chances of …” or “How often does this happen”. You’re absolutely right there are always cases that defy any gross generalization like your car v. truck example. But the point of a generalized statement would be that if one were to select ten cars at random and ten trucks at random then most of the cars will be faster then most of the trucks. Are .223 bullets are completely unpredictable, in that it is even odds that a bullet will fragment, mushroom, or do nothing? If however, we tested two bullets of the same weight and same velocity striking the same medium, one bullet SP the other HP a pattern would emerge. The pattern would either show both bullets have the same effect generally, or the bullets to behave differently. That would give a general answer on the difference between the two tips. It wouldn’t help decide what is a good round to use or which is better for a particular purpose, but we’d have an idea as to what to expect. Another way to look at it is why do manufacturers make HP bullets AND SP bullets in the same weight? There must be a difference. |
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DKing: You can't make generalizations, because the differences in bullets really are that big as the car vs. truck analogy DevL provided. You need to give a specific bullet design, at a specific velocity, impacting a specific type of material (I assume he meant tissue for the latter). I don't know about DevL, but I'm an engineer (the electrical variety, not the train driving kind). 
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I will give some generalizations for some sample bullets: 1) Heavy OTMs - these usually fragment, and the HP cavity has nothing to do with the fragmentation. These types of bullets fragment well due to the thin jacket. The fragmentation property is directly related to the impact velocity. Once the velocity drops below a certain threshold, it won't fragment anymore. 2) Wolf HPs, on the other hand, have a thick steel jacket and don't fragment. Silver Bear HP, even though it also has a steel jacket, appears to fragment somewhat. 3) Hunting HPs, such as Berger triple shock bullets, are designed to expand. 4) SP - Most SP bullets are indeed designed to expand, but like I mentioned before - combloc SPs usually don't expand because their steel jacket is too thick. Some SP bullets also fragment if the jacket is thin enough. 5) Ballistic tip bullets - a lot of these do fragment; some more, some less. In a hunting bullet, fragmentation is not desireable (usually), but I've found that the Nosler 150BTs out of my 7mm Rem Mag usually fragment partially. A Hornady AMAX is a nasty fragmenting bullet. Some just epxand with no fragmentation. |
That's exactly what I was trying to get at. I didn't mean for this to turn into a shitstorm I thought I was just asking a 1 word answer, but then I get all these paragraph answers. I do understand now that their probably isn't just a 1 word answer being that there are so many factors that factor into this answer. Thank You to everyone that has posted. It is more clear now that I need to give more specifics into this question. What would be the difference in these two types of ammunition? Black Hills 55grain softpoint VS. Black Hills 55grain hollowpoint Both are being fired from the same gun with a 1/7 twist into ballistics gel that is placed 100 yards out. It is 1427hrs and you are firing west, there is no wind and it is sunny. Shitstorm carry-on
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Well, if you think I am trying to participate in a shitstorm on your thread, I'll just gladly take my thoughts and exit this thread for now.  Best of luck on the answers you get... but before I go, I just wanted to mention that you should really look at the Black Hills site and pick out the ammo that you really wish to discuss, especially since they don't list a 55gr HP..... And wear some glasses or shoot under cover, since you will be shooting into the sun..  See ya, Njanear out. |
I wasn't talking about your paragraph response, as that actually helped and was an answer that I was looking for. I know they don't list a 55grain HP I was just saying that so that they would be comparable. Thanks P.S. I'll be wearing sunglasses so that sun won't be a problem 
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Unfortunately, it really isn't very simple. HP bullets really are a somewhat new invention in the rifle market. In the handgun market, all HP bullets are *supposed* to expand. That's their primary function. In match rifle bullets, the HP cavity is due to the fact that it allows for a more accurate bullet and has no impact on wound ballistics, with the happy exception that the jacket design is also thin for the same reason, and that gets you fragmentation. Soft points are supposed to expand. Like I said - the commies made SP bullets to appeal to the market, but they don't really work as advertised. There are lots of different bullet designs out on the market. AMAX, VMAX, ballistic tips, HPs, SPs, partitions, solid copper, FMJ - it's a veritable cornucopia of choices. The better question would be: What do you WANT the bullet to do, and then pick accordingly. |
That has answer my question. Thank you |
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