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Posted: 8/15/2006 8:27:39 PM EDT
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OK, not to stomp someone else's thread, and realizing this thread will be rife with pure speculation.... By now, many of you know about the Dirty/Corroded Guatemalan M193 Battlepack Contents..... This stuff is 15 to 25 years old and seems to function just fine despite its appearance. And granted, many lots look 100% A-OK. Nonetheless, onventional wisdom around here for stashing ammo is to put it in a well sealed USGI ammo can, dessicant optional and "it will outlive you". Some folks even go so far as to vacuum pack their ammo. I've personally fired 1940's vintage 45ACP and 303brit.... the ammo was "tarnished" but not corroded or dirty. So, for that ammo that we've stashed in can's or vac-packs as described above, would we expect it to look like the 80's Guat after a couple decades??? I doubt it..... so lets see if we can figure out what happened to this Guatemalan ammo to make it get corroded INSIDE the battlepaks. Make it a little "Lessons Learned" exercise. Were they poorly sealed? the plastic was porous? The air wasn't clean when they were sealed? Does weird heat/cold cycle cause corrosion? Were they dug up after a decade in the jungle-floor? What mistakes did they make that we should avoid? |
doubtful as it's sucking rather than blowing it back into the food |
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I think someone mentioned in another thread that the Guat when originaly sealed had moist air sealed inside the battle packs and that they have since stopped using the battlepack type sealing methods. I can see where that could cause the problem. However, Wolf and Lake City seems to not have any concerns since they still employ the method. Vacuum packing MAY extend the life of ammo. However, without research, who knows for how long and how effectively it would do so. I'd also wonder about causing pressure problems in any unsealed rounds since the vacuum COULD effect the amount of necessary free air for powder ignition, perhaps cause powder caking, and maybe even cause bullet seating problems secondary to uneven ambient air pressure differentials. WHO KNOWS!! I doubt that anyone has ever researched the effects. Has anyone seen anything about it? |
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I know that I've shot ammo, and still shoot ammo, that is twice my age and it was stored in good old ammo cans. As far as I'm concerned, ammo cans are the best ways to store ammo. I actually don't know why people are getting so crazy about keeping ammo "fresh" for hundreds of years. Ok, maybe not HUNDREDS, but for much longer than you'll live. To each their own I guess, but I see no need for all of the extremes we have seen as of late. As far as the Guat, it could be a number of things that could have been the root cause of the problem. It's obvious that they just didn't get it right that time. My personal belief is that it was something acidic in the cardboard. And the acid eating termites.  -X |
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? Weren't there some photos and talk about the whole country of Guat getting swamped by some hurricane or cyclone about the time this ammo was made/stored? Seems to me we saw a buncha old pics showing a "Katrina-like" disaster with mudflows 5-6 feet deep in the whole Guatemala country. No? For my .02, US .50 cal cans are the best. |
| I hope that my South African & Portuguese 7.62 doesn't suffer the same fate as the Guat in the battlepacks. I was under the impression that the sealed battle pack was an excellent way to preserve ammo. I have about 5,000 rounds of SA & Port that I'd like to keep on hand for a while. |
Well, I'm not knowledgable to speculate on anything else... but I will say that the type of plastic used in the Guat battlepacks is partly to blame. Upon receipt of my case, I could see the plastic splitting at the seams, most notably at the corners. The plastic seemed too rigid. On the flip-side, the rubbery, flexible plastic used in the South African battlepacks I have are completely fine, and they're several years older than my Guat lot. The rigidity of the Guat plastic made it more susceptible to splitting. What caused the splitting? Dunno. Heat, humidity, rough handling, gnomes... no clue. Cardboard seemed sketchy as well, as someone else stated. I'd guess that overall, the Guat problem was due to poor components... plastic and cardboard. I'm not worried about my SA packs at all. |
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I would speculate (based on the comments of various recipients of Guat ammo) that the ammo was stored in a hot, humid place. The plastic of the battlepacks subsequently became brittle and prone to cracking. I'm pretty sure that even if humid air was sealed inside the battlepacks that it would contain enough moisture to cause tarnish on that scale. Compare that to the plastic of the Port .308 battlepacks, which is in perfect shape and no reported breaches. |
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Conventional cardboard contains sulfur compounds. I suspect the ambient humidity (year round) in Guatemala is high, so sealing entraps whatever water vapor is present within the containment. The moisture and sulfur compounds produce sulfuric acid which I suspect is the cause of the corrosion. FWIW, I have seen conventional cardboard adversely affect (the metallic finish of conductors in) electronic components in non-sealed storage in as little as 6 months. Suggest tumbing to remove whatever compounds are present on the surface, packaging in different containers. If sealing, wait for a low humidity day to do so (if you don't already live in an arid area), often difficult in summer. You may wish to add a small package of dessicant (size depending on the sealed volume) |
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I received my Guat ammo in a bunch of 30rd cardboard boxes. If those bozes were in plastic before, I don't know, I don't know much about it. Haven't bought surplus type ammo until the recent ammo price shennanigans. When I inspected the boxes, if there were rounds with corrosion (beyond simple tarnish) they seemed to be towards the center of the box, where the paper label is glued to the outside. Makes me think that over time, humidity caused the glue to seep through the cardboard and do naughty things to the brass. Or, maybe the glue stayed put, but held extra moisture after any particularly wet stretch. Those are just guesses, though. |
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I believe the majority of it was the cardboard. Noticed that the stuff that was corroded [I never got any really nasty stuff] was corroded ALWAYS where it touched it. The rest was usually perfectly fine. The stuff that was perfect had another type of cardboard with a waxy type coating impregnated. Very seldom did I find that a lot number from another crate was disimular with the same lot from another crate. It all tended to be about the same. The really nasty looking pink, white stuff was from another mechinism I THINK. I think that was stuff that had the plastic lose it's seal and let in insecticide from gassing for termites. It reacted with the brass and formed this stuff. I have some of the "banned" [legal to have but no longer sold in the US] termicide chloridane and maybe I'll see what that does with a few pieces of brass when I put some in a jar on a patch and seal it. Worth a shot anyways. |
I have noticed this - and heard speculation about the type or chemicals used in the cardboard manufacturing accellerating this, when exposed to moisture. MOST of the battlepacks out of the 40 or so I inspected, had *holes* in them. They appeared sealed, but in most cases, had tiny bore holes (from the termites) or had small cracks in the seams where the battlepack became brittle. So - we have bad cardboard, high moisture during sealing, high moisture during storage, high temperatures during storage, lack of an airtight seal. Basically - we have the WORST of all conditions... and yet this stuff is still really freaking reliable and up to speed in my chrony. I think the primer and bullet seals are what saved this stuff. That tells me - if I ditch the cardboard, seal it in a REAL can, throw in some dessicant, and keep it from extreme temps - new production ammo should REALLY last a LONG time. |
Katrina flood damage, FAL Files Forum, April 2006
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The Glock was probably still functional due to its looser than normal clearances between parts. Ruger semi-autos are similar, but heavy duty in nature and Springfield XD's have tighter clearances (about right), like HK's, Sig, and etc... In dirty conditions, firearms with looser clearances can go longer between cleaning than those crafted with more precision. An example would be the AK-47 versus an AR-15. Tighter clearances between parts don't make a weapon unreliable; the need for more TLC will. |
If you want to know why it still worked look no further than the 4 little rails mounted in the plastic frame of the picture above which the slide runs on, less metal to metal contact is the reason, not loose tolerances, IMO. Mike |
Apparently there was some flooding from hurricane Mitch in 1998. www.ifrc.org/cgi/pdf_appeals.pl?rpts98/guatfloo.pdf www.fao.org/docrep/004/x0313e/x0313e00.htm en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Mitch www.anglican.ca/news/news.php?newsItem=1998-11-12_xx.news |
Yeah, "some flooding." [:\] |
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