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Posted: 4/1/2006 5:55:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 6:12:04 PM EDT by davidkxx]
Just saw the post for Guatamalin (sp?) surplus for $170/1000 rounds. similiar prices for SA. My local shop has Lake City for $185 a case (1000). why bother with the other stuff when LC is only a few bucks more?
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:09:01 PM EDT
Is boxed LC or loose? M193 or M855?
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:11:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By davidkxx:
My local shop has Lake City for $185 a case (1000). My bother with the other stuff when LC is only a few bucks more?



$185 is a pretty rare price for LC M193. I would buy it all at your local shop. Now a days the going rate for it is $230 +.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:11:27 PM EDT
M193. dont know if its boxed or loose?

Does it matter if its boxed or loose?
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:13:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 6:15:06 PM EDT by ISED8U]
Generally the price of surplus is less than shelf ammo. With the rising costs of some surplus that may prove to be untrue eventually. Personally I don't use the "loose packed" ammunition. I can't give you a good reason for that....just my personal preference. If the $170/1000 looked good and was reliable and reasonably accurate, I'd say go for it.

ETA: my last 1000 rounds of XM 193 Lake City was $225 +SH.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:18:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By davidkxx:
M193. dont know if its boxed or loose?

Does it matter if its boxed or loose?



boxed XM193 is good:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=170932

loose XM193PD is not so good:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=259364

ref:
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=169729

ps:
personally, i would not pile up XM193PD as SHTF ammo.
from a QC perspective, it is 3rd rate stuff.

ar-jedi

Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:23:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

Originally Posted By davidkxx:
M193. dont know if its boxed or loose?

Does it matter if its boxed or loose?



boxed XM193 is good:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=170932

loose XM193PD is not so good:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=259364

ref:
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=169729

ps:
personally, i would not pile up XM193PD as SHTF ammo.
from a QC perspective, it is 3rd rate stuff.

ar-jedi




+1
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:23:25 PM EDT
Loose packed LC might be $185.00 but it's thirds and floor sweepings. Say what you will about the Guat but I have over 8K of it and I'd bet it's more reliable then some of the PD stuff that looks like it was beaten with lead pipes.

True mil 855 or 193 won't be close to $185.00 per K in price. If you have a store that is selling it for that amount buy all you can because you hit the lotto.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:24:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 6:39:58 PM EDT by davidkxx]
the XM193PM thread states:

Ammo that fails QC in a minor way, such as not being completely moisture-sealed, but is otherwise good ammo is "Grade 2". That's what "XM193" is that Federal sells in 20-round boxes: Grade 2 ammo. The same with XM855."


Is Q3131A grade 1 or grade 2? Is it better, worse, or equal to XM193?
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:30:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

Originally Posted By davidkxx:
M193. dont know if its boxed or loose?

Does it matter if its boxed or loose?



boxed XM193 is good:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=170932

loose XM193PD is not so good:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=259364

ref:
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=169729

ps:
personally, i would not pile up XM193PD as SHTF ammo.
from a QC perspective, it is 3rd rate stuff.

ar-jedi




+1



It's true, I know because I was a loose packed user that converted to boxed and there is a noticable difference.

I think the loose packed stuff are throw backs from bad batches or just blemished rounds.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:47:54 PM EDT
XM193PD is shit. The Guatemalan may not look pretty but at least you can rely on it to go bang.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 6:48:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 6:55:57 PM EDT by ar-jedi]

Originally Posted By davidkxx:
Is Q3131A grade 1 or grade 2? Is it better, worse, or equal to XM193?



lets assume for the moment that Q3131A, Q3131 (the new, USA-produced version), and XM193 are identical, M193-spec cartridges.

Q3131A is grade 2.
Q3131 is grade 2.
XM193 is grade 2.

notes:
1) no grade 1 of the above M193 ammo is available directly to non-mil end users. the military gets the cream of the production from Federal and IMI. in the boxes of grade 2 ammo will be a mix of grade 1 and grade 2 stuff; my experience has been that there is more grade 1 stuff in a given case of Q3131/Q3131A than in a case of XM193. note that i base this on a visual inspection only, in terms of slightly dented cases or other, easy to recognize issues (gooped primer sealant, etc).

2) how you rank the above M193 rounds is personal preference. i happen to like Q3131 and Q3131A "better" than XM193, if only because my AR's have seen more rounds of it and they are very reliable with it. moreover, as noted above i think there is a lot of grade 1 stuff in a case of Q. that said, i also have a few cases of XM193 and would not hesitate to use it as well. but, all else being equal, i would go with the Q. maybe it's because the Q rounds are nice and shiny.

3) M193-rounds such as the above have good terminal ballistics from many different types of barrels (lengths and twists). however, absolute accuracy is below what can be attained with other, more specifically designed rounds. for example, BH 75gr OTM (Hornady projectile) and SMK 77gr (a la Mk262mod1) will be much more accurate (than garden variety M193 rounds) when paired with the right barrel and trigger man. this may not be important in your application, or it may be. only you can decide.

4) for more info, read the oracle and this EXCELLENT summary post

ar-jedi




Link Posted: 4/1/2006 7:00:14 PM EDT
ok.. now that I know both LC and 3131 are grade 2 I understand better.

I have a 200 rounds of TAP 75 as my main, but cant afford to stock up so Im looking for the next best thing and it seems to be M193 or 3131A

doesnt sound like the 3131A is worth the extra $50 it will cost me per case.

I did see and read most of the oracle, but to a newbie like me its somewhat confusing. the summary helped

Thanks!!
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 8:19:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 8:22:44 PM EDT by ar-jedi]

Originally Posted By davidkxx:
doesnt sound like the 3131A is worth the extra $50 it will cost me per case.



just so we are clear, the "loose" XM193 you found is with 99.9% likelihood, XM193PD.
which, as you have already found out above and from the links, is pretty much crap.

ETA:
sorry, i just reread the entire thread. check to make sure you are getting boxed XM193 (in 20's) for that $170/case price. if that indeed is what it is, snap it all up -- you just found yourself the best deal on the planet.

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 8:22:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

Originally Posted By davidkxx:
M193. dont know if its boxed or loose?

Does it matter if its boxed or loose?



boxed XM193 is good:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=170932

loose XM193PD is not so good:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=259364

ref:
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=169729

ps:
personally, i would not pile up XM193PD as SHTF ammo.
from a QC perspective, it is 3rd rate stuff.

ar-jedi




When you say loose, do you mean all the rounds are without packaging at all? Such as 1000 rounds just floating around in an ammo can?

I just bought 1000 of Lake City and it was not labeled PD. Though it is loaded on 10 round stripper clips, 2 clips per box. They are not fully enclosed boxes, more of a box-sleeve open on both ends, no labels.. Then all of the sleeves loaded in an ammo can. It was from a gun show, and he was selling the 2 clip sleeves individually as well. I thought maybe he just canned up a 1000 rounds.

So now I'm wondering if I bought PD. Most rounds look good and I'm examining each one.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 8:24:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2006 8:29:17 PM EDT by ar-jedi]

Originally Posted By adfinder23:
When you say loose, do you mean all the rounds are without packaging at all? Such as 1000 rounds just floating around in an ammo can?




this is what std pack "loose" XM193PD looks like, as it arrives from FEDERAL (4 x 500rnd boxes):










and this is what XM193 looks like, 50 x 20rnd boxes in a case of 1000rnds:










ar-jedi

Link Posted: 4/1/2006 8:44:15 PM EDT
Thanks Ar-Jedi. Neither of those look like what I've got. And I not sure someone would load up the loose ammo on stripper clips, taking the time and cost of stripper clips, without increasing the price of PD by some.

Perhaps it's older Lake City? Anybody ever see it packaged like I described in my previous post, or know what I've got?
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 8:57:51 PM EDT
Sidenote: Has anyone recently seen M193 in US military use?

Every time I've been to the range, we get 855 (green tip 62gr) ....

I have, for a long time, assumed that any continued M193 production is for export/commercial/LEO customers, NOT for US military use...

After all, the M16A1 is basically out of service except as a dummy rifle for AIT soldiers to carry around and ND blanks with....
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 9:24:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By adfinder23:
Thanks Ar-Jedi. Neither of those look like what I've got. And I not sure someone would load up the loose ammo on stripper clips, taking the time and cost of stripper clips, without increasing the price of PD by some.

Perhaps it's older Lake City? Anybody ever see it packaged like I described in my previous post, or know what I've got?



Stripper clips are dirt cheap. To load a thousand it would cost someone less than $6 for the strippers. Maybe his kids load them for free. Still seems really cheap even if it was PD when you include the ammo can. Possibly he picked it up from someones widow on the cheap and the deceased put XM193 on the clips. Or it could be something else. Don't loose any sleep over it. Look every round over and if you don't trust it for SHIF use it for range ammo. I used PD for range ammo for years and I found it acceptable. No cycling problems and every round went bang. You did OK. If the guy in the shop still has it ask him. You might get a honest answer.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 11:32:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BSTOCK:

Originally Posted By adfinder23:
Thanks Ar-Jedi. Neither of those look like what I've got. And I not sure someone would load up the loose ammo on stripper clips, taking the time and cost of stripper clips, without increasing the price of PD by some.

Perhaps it's older Lake City? Anybody ever see it packaged like I described in my previous post, or know what I've got?



Stripper clips are dirt cheap. To load a thousand it would cost someone less than $6 for the strippers. Maybe his kids load them for free. Still seems really cheap even if it was PD when you include the ammo can. Possibly he picked it up from someones widow on the cheap and the deceased put XM193 on the clips. Or it could be something else. Don't loose any sleep over it. Look every round over and if you don't trust it for SHIF use it for range ammo. I used PD for range ammo for years and I found it acceptable. No cycling problems and every round went bang. You did OK. If the guy in the shop still has it ask him. You might get a honest answer.



Well, it was a gun show about 45 mins away, so I doubt I'll see him again. Maybe next show. PD costs about 185 right, so add $6 for stripper clips, $5 for ammo can, a few bucks for the cardboard sleeves, and then all the time it would take to load the strips. And then sell it for $185? Seems pointless doesn't it. If you're selling ammo cheap, why take time to clip it and box it?

Though, what type of Lake City would sell for $185 that isn't PD? Old surplus ammo? No where does it say Lake City either or XMxxx, it was just labeled Lake City on a price tag he had on the cans he was selling. And by the looks of it and the pics from the Oracle, it looks like Lake City.

I'm not worried about it for SHTF ammo. I bought it for range shooting . And I'm not worried about some rounds not going bang, I just don't want any rounds to go Kaboom.

Thanks though.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:54:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By adfinder23:

Originally Posted By BSTOCK:

Originally Posted By adfinder23:
Thanks Ar-Jedi. Neither of those look like what I've got. And I not sure someone would load up the loose ammo on stripper clips, taking the time and cost of stripper clips, without increasing the price of PD by some.

Perhaps it's older Lake City? Anybody ever see it packaged like I described in my previous post, or know what I've got?



Stripper clips are dirt cheap. To load a thousand it would cost someone less than $6 for the strippers. Maybe his kids load them for free. Still seems really cheap even if it was PD when you include the ammo can. Possibly he picked it up from someones widow on the cheap and the deceased put XM193 on the clips. Or it could be something else. Don't loose any sleep over it. Look every round over and if you don't trust it for SHIF use it for range ammo. I used PD for range ammo for years and I found it acceptable. No cycling problems and every round went bang. You did OK. If the guy in the shop still has it ask him. You might get a honest answer.



Well, it was a gun show about 45 mins away, so I doubt I'll see him again. Maybe next show. PD costs about 185 right, so add $6 for stripper clips, $5 for ammo can, a few bucks for the cardboard sleeves, and then all the time it would take to load the strips. And then sell it for $185? Seems pointless doesn't it. If you're selling ammo cheap, why take time to clip it and box it?

Though, what type of Lake City would sell for $185 that isn't PD? Old surplus ammo? No where does it say Lake City either or XMxxx, it was just labeled Lake City on a price tag he had on the cans he was selling. And by the looks of it and the pics from the Oracle, it looks like Lake City.

I'm not worried about it for SHTF ammo. I bought it for range shooting . And I'm not worried about some rounds not going bang, I just don't want any rounds to go Kaboom.

Thanks though.



You talking about the Mason Fairgrounds show? There was a guy selling out his stock amd retiring. He was selling pretty damn cheap as I picked up Aussie 308 for Dirt cheap. He's been doing this the past 2 shows there. He said he had cleared out most everything and this show was some stuff he had found in a corner. Heavyset guy, grey hair scruffy [unshaved] looking? If so, the guy does know his ammo and you might have gotten some old true 193 mil stuff. All the other ammo I have gotten from him has been good stuff. Shoot it, keep some of it and don't worry.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 8:22:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2006 8:25:05 AM EDT by Wild_Man]
adfinder23-

I have some exactly like that except the boxes are in bandoliers. Bandolier has M193 stamped on it. My understanding is this is real grade 1 which was surplused years ago. I bought it about 2000. Headstamp is L C 7 8 arranged 90 degrees apart around the head. Check your headstamp, sounds like real military issue.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 2:47:08 PM EDT
Fxntime, no it was the Gibraltar show in Taylor. I didn't see a gunshow listed in the events calendar in Mason this weekend. Just the Gibraltar one. Though, it did say that it was at Mt.Clemens instead of Taylor, so I guess the calendar is a little off.

Wild_man, I just checked the headstamps on about 8 rounds from various places within the ammo can and they say L C 7 4 and one of them said L C 7 7. Didn't check all strips, but looks like most is 7 4, but at least some 7 7. So what do those numbers tell you? And if this is the real deal XM193 and I had known I would have cleaned him out. He had at least 4 1000rd cans and I bought one for $185.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 3:18:55 PM EDT
Good stuff, be happy. GI contract stuff. Older stuff but it will shoot well, might have lost 50-100FPS or so. The SA stuff from the 80s was still up to snuff and I'd expect this to be also.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 4:16:58 PM EDT
On the XM193 20 round boxes, why does it also say M193 BALL?
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 4:52:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PocketG:
On the XM193 20 round boxes, why does it also say M193 BALL?



"M193" is the military specification that the round was built to.
"BALL" is the type of projectile. it's a convoluted story as to why FMJ is called "ball".

ar-jedi

Link Posted: 4/2/2006 9:25:02 PM EDT
adfinder-

L C = Lake City
7 4 = 1974

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:13:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wild_Man:
adfinder-

L C = Lake City
7 4 = 1974




That's what I figured. Does this mean that I have true 1st tier military ammo? The ammo that is no longer available to citizens being first tier, while second tier being available(but currently rare), and third tier being PD?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:29:53 PM EDT
Yes, its real first tier. In the past governments tended to sell off their stockpiled ammo after 15 years or so as some deterioration from original specs takes place. As someone said above this may shoot 100 ft/sec slower than spec but it should still be good reliable stuff. You got lucky in finding some!
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