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Posted: 3/7/2006 9:23:14 AM EDT
I like to have some revolvers for their reliability. I have heard that most SD situations are within 5 feet, use 5 rounds, and last 5 seconds. Maybe true, maybe not.

I have read what I can find on the testing for these rounds and am wish for something better. Is there any gel testing both with and without denim on Cor Bons's DPX? I have read some good reports on other companies using all copper bullets.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:20:22 AM EDT
I often carry a 5 shot Smith Titanium or Titanium. Scandium 5 shot revolver. They are extremely light and I have found they will go into my back pocket in military style jeans and you don't even realize you are carrying it so light. I usually just put the blazer ammo in the gun as it also helps reduce the weight for CC. If I am not carrying concealed and I use a revolver its usually with black talon/winchester ranger or golden saber. Any of the personal defense loads will work adequately. I would rather have a 5 shot in my pocket than a 12/15 round sittling at home because of the weight.
JRandyH
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 11:20:49 AM EDT
If you go to stoppingpower.net/forum, you may be able to find some gelatin testing on DPX ammo. Evan Marshall runs that Forum and I believe he has become a big fan of DPX in nearly all calibers. He and his friends do quite a bit of gelatin testing on different stuff. Be forewarned that it is very polite forum and you will need to behave if you wish to participate there. Lurking no problem though. I really like Evan's credentials and believe he is honest, knowledgeable and humble regarding the whole issue of bullet performance.

The only downside to DPX, it seems, is the price and finding some. Not many fun shops carry the stuff and your best bet is an internet purchase.

dvo
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 2:45:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 2:49:35 PM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By dvo:
If you go to stoppingpower.net/forum, you may be able to find some gelatin testing on DPX ammo. Evan Marshall runs that Forum and I believe he has become a big fan of DPX in nearly all calibers.



That would be reason enough for me NOT go there.

Neo,
Go to TacticalForums and FirearmsTactical and check some of the test results there. Remember you are working with a handgun. Pick a round that does well, that you can afford to buy in a quantity you can practice with. To paraphrase Dr. Roberts "a Warrior Mindset and good training are more imporant than bullet selection".
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 4:59:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By dvo:
If you go to stoppingpower.net/forum, you may be able to find some gelatin testing on DPX ammo. Evan Marshall runs that Forum and I believe he has become a big fan of DPX in nearly all calibers.



That would be reason enough for me NOT go there.

Neo,
Go to TacticalForums and FirearmsTactical and check some of the test results there. Remember you are working with a handgun. Pick a round that does well, that you can afford to buy in a quantity you can practice with. To paraphrase Dr. Roberts "a Warrior Mindset and good training are more imporant than bullet selection".



Forest:

I don't know Evan, but his resume looks impressive to me. Can you claim more experience or knowledge about this subject that has come from anything other than reading stuff on the internet? Are you a Federal contract employee, or law enforcement officer? Ever been a homicide cop? Maybe a SWAT team instructor? Evan has. Just wondering....

dvo
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 7:08:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Neo,
Go to TacticalForums and FirearmsTactical and check some of the test results there. Remember you are working with a handgun. Pick a round that does well, that you can afford to buy in a quantity you can practice with. To paraphrase Dr. Roberts "a Warrior Mindset and good training are more imporant than bullet selection".



Hi Forest

With the help of everyone here I have learned so much and selected my HD ammo for my ARs and 9 mm Glocks (I appreciate everyone's patience as I know it was like pulling teeth). I agree that bullet selection is only a part. I am interested in how Cor Bon DPX tests with these calibers. I have searched both sites you mentioned and there seems to be little interest in these calibers. For some reason TacticalForums rejected my request to join. Any idea why?

Thanks much
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 7:09:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvo:
I don't know Evan, but his resume looks impressive to me. Can you claim more experience or knowledge about this subject that has come from anything other than reading stuff on the internet?



No I'm just an engineer. As such I have a basic grasp of mathematics and statistics.

And if you look over his stuff you can tell he 'fudged' the numbers - data falsification is a pretty good indicator that there is a problem. Duncan MacPherson gets the credit for discovering this, and he does an excellent job of explaining it for the math challenged (www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm)

Then there is the whole fact the raw data hasn't been published so it can't be reviewed.

And I won't even get into the methodology used to determine a "stop".

His work wouldn't pass for a freshman science project let alone a proffessional science journal.

Having a resume lising "SWAT Instructor" or "Cop" does not make one an expert at putting together a statistical analysis for ANYTHING. Leave the math and science to those that are educated and experienced in such matters. Mr Marshall's experience would be better suited running a firearms training school than trying to publish 'studies'.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 11:24:11 AM EDT
I use the Taurus 185 gr. Hex in my Glock 30. It is standard pressure and will go through 2 1 gallon milk jugs filled with shreadded newspaper and water plus a third with just water only. It stops in the fourth of just water. The Winchester 230 gr SXT does just a little better but not much.
I carry the Taurus load most of the time and only switch to the inchester in the coldest part of winter.

I haven't been able to find the 9mm DPX loading for my 19 and 26 Glocks but may have to try to order some off the net. Right now I feel fine using the 9mm Dold Dots 124 gr +P.

The 38/357 DPX should work fine.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Leonard
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 11:43:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2006 12:03:49 PM EDT by Big-FED]
As a long, long time shooter (since 1952) and former LEO, I have a couple of revolvers that I shoot. It is no longer true that revolvers are more reliable than semi-autos (I'm sure we will start a flame war on this). From my first LE job in 1962, I have never carried one for duty and only on the rare occasion for CCW. Any one of my several semi-autos (from an AMT to any of my 1911's and Glock 23) presents a more formidable and equally (or more) reliable package than any revolver. Yes, some of those super light weights are almost handy (still thicker through the cylinder than almost any auto), but in any significant caliber, are unpleasant to shoot enough to become really proficient with it.

I do have a (all stainless steel) S&W 640 .357Mag and it is a handfull.


ETA: I have carry autos .380ACP (carry only on those really hot humid days), 9m/m, .357SIG, .40S&W and .45ACP. The ONLY (IMHO) relvolver round worth a crap is the .357Mag and now we are back to the size/weight does make a difference.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 6:10:40 PM EDT
Is this the same Marshal of the infamous (and horribly flawed) Marshal and Sanow (sp?) stopping power statistics? Their numbers would earn an F in a freshman statistics class.

For .357 carry you can relly on pretty much any of the 4th generation HP to perform well. My wfie (who's a revolver freak) carries the 158 grn Gold-Dot, but the winchester ranger line or Rem Golden-Sabre are fine choices as well.

Big-FED, I'd say that either the .44 spc or .41 mag loaded with a decent holow point would be a fine carry piece as well (in terms of performance) but then you are getting even larger.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 11:51:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-FED:
As a long, long time shooter (since 1952) and former LEO, I have a couple of revolvers that I shoot. It is no longer true that revolvers are more reliable than semi-autos (I'm sure we will start a flame war on this).



Although I do not have the long experience that you have, I have had jams with almost all of my semi-autos. I recently purchased 2 new 9 mm Glocks and in the 100 rounds or so that I have fired through them, I had one feeding jam with a Win. FMJ. The revolvers do not have a jamming problem and if a round does not fire one just pulls the trigger again. I have always preferred semi-autos. My thought now is that if I just had 1 gun I would prefer the reliability of a revolver.

What is the experience of others with jams in semi-autos?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 11:55:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NVGdude:
For .357 carry you can relly on pretty much any of the 4th generation HP to perform well. My wfie (who's a revolver freak) carries the 158 grn Gold-Dot, but the winchester ranger line or Rem Golden-Sabre are fine choices as well.



Is a Ranger T available for the .357? Any gel testing?
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 12:05:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Neo1:
What is the experience of others with jams in semi-autos?


I used to have a Ruger P90, the thing was as reliable as a brick. Never had a problem and it would feed empty cases w/o problems (cheap substitute for snap caps to simulate a bad round).

My Glock G19 has had a couple of problems. Nothing that couldn't be solved with a quick rack of the slide.

On the other hand I've had 2 Ruger revolvers lock up on me due to bad ammo. Really bad - so bad I needed my shop to get them unstuck.

Overall I'd trust my semi-autos over my revolvers. No 'clockwork' mechanism to get mucked up or out of time.
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 12:11:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Neo1:

Originally Posted By Big-FED:
As a long, long time shooter (since 1952) and former LEO, I have a couple of revolvers that I shoot. It is no longer true that revolvers are more reliable than semi-autos (I'm sure we will start a flame war on this).



Although I do not have the long experience that you have, I have had jams with almost all of my semi-autos. I recently purchased 2 new 9 mm Glocks and in the 100 rounds or so that I have fired through them, I had one feeding jam with a Win. FMJ. The revolvers do not have a jamming problem and if a round does not fire one just pulls the trigger again. I have always preferred semi-autos. My thought now is that if I just had 1 gun I would prefer the reliability of a revolver.

What is the experience of others with jams in semi-autos?



I have had 0 problems in over twenty years with all my S&W autoloaders. I have used all kinds of ammo and shot them plenty dirty and have never had a failure of any kind. NOT ONE. That being said, my carry is a S&W 38+P airweight wheel gun with my backup being my S&W Chiefs Special Compact 9MM loaded with P for carry. There is just something about a revolver that makes me feel very comfortable. I have to agree with you about "if a round doesn't fire you just pull the trigger again".
Link Posted: 3/9/2006 12:11:54 PM EDT
Interesting that 2 people here believe semi-autos are more reliable than revolvers. I have read the opposite but I may have to change my thinking again.

I did finally find some tests results on the Cor Bon .38 DPX:

www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9314&SearchTerms=dpx,38
Link Posted: 3/10/2006 9:45:50 PM EDT
Re Jams in revolverw and autos.

I have never had a jam in my Colt Sistema 1927 (Argitine military 1911). The only jams I have ever experienced with my 1991A1 Officers model were related to ammo, specifically the Speer 200 grain flying ashcan. I gave those rounds to a buddy with a .45 ACP revolver.


I have seen revolvers jam, and jam BAD. My wife has a Taurus 85 which like Smith and Wesson Revolvers has a threaded cylander pin. If the pin shoots loose the mechanism will lock up tight, and it takes a good half hour and tools to fix it. I have since locktighted it in place. (did the smae for a friends Smith). This is another reason I really like the Dan Wesson revolvers, as the mechanism is different, and it can not jam this way.
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