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Posted: 2/24/2006 7:21:40 PM EDT
I can't get my guns to shoot the cheap crap well at all. Winchester white box 62gr, Sellier& Bellot 55gr, Q3131 55gr. They hover around 3 inches at 100 yards. I read post all the time that talks about 1 inch groups with plinking ammo. I can get 1 inch with BH 55gr but it is 16 a box of 50. What is a average group with cheap ammo? I am shooting a RR 18inch VArminter 1/8 twist.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 11:11:30 PM EDT
You're fine with 3". Your barrel just might not like the cheap stuff so much, but anything military like Q3131 is 2MOA ammo in general (I believe mil spec requires 3MOA).
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:44:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 6:50:24 AM EDT by FALARAK]
I am with you. A LOT of the group sizes posted here are BS, posted by people that dont accurately measure the groups center to center, and average multiple 5 shot groups. They shot a couple 3 shot groups, take their best one, and say "My gun shoots 1" groups with Q3131A"

My match rifle shoots .5 with handloads, .75 or less with black hills match or Winchester 45gr varmint, and around 2-2.5MOA with milsurp/milspec. 2.5-4MOA with Wolf.

These are 5 shots groups, and the average of multiple, not the best in the bunch.... and all flyers count.

Go to Sportmans Warehouse - BH 55's are $11/50. 52 HP's are $13/50. Walmart has Winchester 45gr varmint for ~$14/40.


Start reloading. 10 cents for a matchking, 5 cents for match powder, 2 cents for a primer, and you have .5MOA capable ammo for under $9/50. My plinking load does 1MOA, and is a 55gr SP, 5 cents for bullet, 3 cents for powder, 1.5 cents for primer.... basically 10 cents per loaded round.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 11:26:18 AM EDT
Alot of guys must not count flyers!

But with my BUSHY HBAR20 w/ 10x and 69bthp I can get 1/2 inch group 2 100 yards
but thats 3 rds!

I shot 10 groups ! and with military ammo at 100 yards I have a real hard time keeping them all in the black of a 50 yard target! but its a LMT 14.5 not a target gun!


use a shot or sand bag!
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:25:03 PM EDT
I recently chron'd several of the mil-spec loadings available, and just about all of them averaged 2" through a variety of AR's. All had optics on them, ranging from an Aimpoint to a TA-31F and a Nikon 4.5-14x scope. A few went into an inch, but that was hardly the average.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:00:53 PM EDT
Tiny groups are nice, but that's just an added bonus for me. i just shoot for hits... Minute of man is good enough for me...
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:33:57 PM EDT
FALARAK, Could you give me the specifics on you plinking ammo. Thanks
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:44:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 5:47:14 PM EDT by home_with_kids]
depends on how you shoot, too, of course.

I had a little instruction from an ARCOM member last week, he had me trussed up tight in a sling on the ground in prone position. Even with Fed XM193 I was shooting better groups (once I got used to it) than I could off the bench at 200 yds. I was truly surprised how much difference it made. Scope would have tightened them up, but this was iron sights.

EDIT: 0612Devil mentioned "minute of man". Minute of "head" is what you want, at the least, I would think. If you truly have to shoot at someone from distance (remember this cannot be in any way construed as "self defense" at 100, 200 yards), you better be able to put him down for sure.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:07:25 PM EDT
This is a topic that causes the BS to be spread around pretty deep. Falarak nailed it on the head with his first sentence.

Anyway, 3" @ 100 yards with that type ammo would be fine with me. The thing with me is that one day I shoot really well and the next I'm all over the place. I have a problem with consistency a lot of times, but at least I'm honest about it. Keep in mind, I don't shoot off a bench. Some people have their rifle practically bolted to a bench and declare that they are an expert shot. The best thing I ever did was put a Turner match sling on my Colt HBAR and shoot from field positions.

I would also suggest handloading some ammo with OTM bullets. If your rifle has a 1/7 twist barrel, I highly recommend the 77 grain HPBTs from either Sierra or Nosler.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:26:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 6:28:45 PM EDT by jaymeister99]

Originally Posted By arteacher:
I can't get my guns to shoot the cheap crap well at all. Winchester white box 62gr, Sellier& Bellot 55gr, Q3131 55gr. They hover around 3 inches at 100 yards. I read post all the time that talks about 1 inch groups with plinking ammo. I can get 1 inch with BH 55gr but it is 16 a box of 50. What is a average group with cheap ammo? I am shooting a RR 18inch VArminter 1/8 twist.



I dont know, Ive managed .8" groups with Federal Match 69gr through my DPMS DCM rifle, 1 in 8 twist. Ive managed 1" groups with Federal AE, but usually around 1.5". I would think you could be doing better with the cheap ammo through a varmint barrel. This is also with a site vise, but it is possible to get these kinds of groups.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:32:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
I am with you. A LOT of the group sizes posted here are BS, posted by people that dont accurately measure the groups center to center, and average multiple 5 shot groups. They shot a couple 3 shot groups, take their best one, and say "My gun shoots 1" groups with Q3131A"

My match rifle shoots .5 with handloads, .75 or less with black hills match or Winchester 45gr varmint, and around 2-2.5MOA with milsurp/milspec. 2.5-4MOA with Wolf.

These are 5 shots groups, and the average of multiple, not the best in the bunch.... and all flyers count.

Go to Sportmans Warehouse - BH 55's are $11/50. 52 HP's are $13/50. Walmart has Winchester 45gr varmint for ~$14/40.


Start reloading. 10 cents for a matchking, 5 cents for match powder, 2 cents for a primer, and you have .5MOA capable ammo for under $9/50. My plinking load does 1MOA, and is a 55gr SP, 5 cents for bullet, 3 cents for powder, 1.5 cents for primer.... basically 10 cents per loaded round.



FALARAK, i was looking to get back into reloading to make some cheaper ammo again, do you really use about 3-5 cents a round in powder? I had tried to estimate and came out closer to about .08 per round, I figured about 8 pounds for 1000 rounds, is this right? thanks.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:49:19 PM EDT
It's hard tell that darn can jumps everytime I shoot it.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:56:08 PM EDT
Judge for yourself. No BS. Here's one of my groups from a 20" 1-9 twist HBAR with free float handguard and leupold 6x.



Black Hills 55gr is about the same. Black Hills 68gr Heavy Match will group a little better. I have pictures of the BH 68gr groups as well, but they are not handy. I'll post them ASAP.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 11:09:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 11:10:23 PM EDT by Ramennoodlesoup]


Link Posted: 2/26/2006 4:27:50 AM EDT
Yesterday from an off-hand sling supported position I have a 8" group 5 shot group @ 70 yards with Wolf HP. A 5 shot Georgia Arms grouping was 5.5". I hardly ever shoot my AR from the bench because most practical applications will not involve a bench to fire from.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 5:03:09 AM EDT
1 lb. of powder has 7000 grains in it.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:23:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sparkchaser774:
FALARAK, Could you give me the specifics on you plinking ammo. Thanks



Hornady 55gr spire point (soft point) with a light load (23.3gr) of AA2230C, WSR primer, any brass.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 8:26:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jaymeister99:
FALARAK, i was looking to get back into reloading to make some cheaper ammo again, do you really use about 3-5 cents a round in powder? I had tried to estimate and came out closer to about .08 per round, I figured about 8 pounds for 1000 rounds, is this right? thanks.



Varget. ~$120 out the door for 8 lbs. 7000 grains in a LB, so a keg is 56000gr, or $0.00214 per grain. avg 25 gr per case, right at 5 cents, for expensive powder.

AA2230C was $65/keg. Do the math.
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:12:55 AM EDT
Since I just updated my post, below is a link to my thread where I try shooting XM193, as well as several of the Black Hills blue box rounds.

I'm not some great target shooter or anything, but I'm probably getting close to the limit of what XM193 is capable of (which is probably comparable to Q3131 and other similar "cheap" ammo types).

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=264855
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 11:20:13 AM EDT
A very old tipe useing irons! It works for me.

Smash my nose on the charge handle!

I dont know why but my groups do alot better!

Im going to try my 551 eotech out @ 200yrds as soon as weather is nicer!
Im hopeing I will shrink my groups compared with my ML2?


Also I have good days and bad days but practice makes better/perfect
Link Posted: 2/26/2006 12:40:39 PM EDT
Alot of people don't count fliers , i know i don't :D

The best way to get tighter groups is just to shoot better. More practice means better groups. Not counting fliers, i can get about 1.5" at 100yds with my 20" M1S varnmit rifle and WWB.
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