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Posted: 2/13/2006 10:51:05 AM EDT
[#1]
Does anyone know how many blended metal projectiles it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?
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Posted: 2/13/2006 11:46:56 AM EDT
[#2]
I do agree that ballistic gelatin testing is not comprehensive. The nature of ballistic gelatin is such that it provides a reproducible media in which to test ballistics and easily view simulated wound channels. Ballistic gelatin is no where near as dynamic of a structure as actual living tissue. The fundamental problem with living tissue tests is that it is very inconsistent from spot to spot on the body. That said, why is it that the round(s) in question do not do as well in ballistic gelatin as they do in real tissue? Does the projectile require a tougher tissues or bones to get such effects? If so, how do we count on that reliably in the field, and is there anyway you could make a simulated bone or membrane layer that could be placed in the ballistic gelatin to get the "living tissue" results in a synthetic media. I guess the question everyone has is 'how does it work'? We only see evidence that it worked with out an explaination on the 'why' and 'how'. Personally, I am no more a skeptic than any scientist would be when presented with claims and end results without any explaination as to why. I hope you can see why this is a tough sell. You have two advertising points that are typically exclusive of each other, in one product, with many claims and little reproducible data, communicated in a mannor that not scientifically recognizable. It would be best to contract some experts, and have them submit a few papers on your product to a pier reviewed journal. After you do this, you might still have skeptics, but it would be their job to show evidence to the contrary. Instead of where we are now, as we are lacking basic data to accept any claims. |
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Posted: 2/13/2006 11:49:19 AM EDT
[#3]
OK, folks, sorry to disappoint. I've been asked not to show images, so I won't.
The truth will out. |
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Posted: 2/13/2006 12:14:19 PM EDT
[#4]
 ...by whom?
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Posted: 2/13/2006 1:02:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Don't blame me, I really wanted to see those pictures. |
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Posted: 2/13/2006 1:38:35 PM EDT
[#6]
tagged for outcome (if possible)
BMT I'm curious about the merits of your ammunition and look forward to possibly trying some myself. Why not host video footage of your tests? I for one would prefer to see the effects of your ammunition before someone hacks into the carcass with a knife. Again, it's hard to tell what's going on when still pics are shown after an autopsy. |
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Posted: 2/15/2006 5:32:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Package received:
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Posted: 2/15/2006 6:06:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Can we get some specifics on brass, primer and powder along with the other info? Thanks! |
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Posted: 2/15/2006 8:52:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Now that is good news. Thanks for all of your work. viator |
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Posted: 2/15/2006 10:42:08 PM EDT
[#10]
BMT...
HOW DO THESE DAMN ROUNDS WORK??? |
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Posted: 2/16/2006 4:57:59 AM EDT
[#11]
It depends on the temp. of the Tootsie pop. Is the "pop" made w/ any pork products or gelatin? Were the Tootsie folks even given permission by BMT to shoot said "pops"? What role is that damn Owl going to play in the testing? Need more info. -Justin |
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Posted: 2/16/2006 10:12:12 AM EDT
[#12]
tag
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Posted: 2/16/2006 10:23:11 AM EDT
[#13]
What the hell...tag.
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Posted: 2/16/2006 12:57:49 PM EDT
[#14]
We have been busy:
 The 5.56 mm ammo shipped to us by modog consists bullets with an ave weight of 45.0 gr made using standard swaged copper jackets and lead-antimony cores--these molybdenum disulfide coated bullets are completely conventional in every way and use no blended metals, exotic materials, bonding, or other unusual construction. These bullets are identical in every respect, down to the elemental level, as commercially produced .223 varmint rifle bullets. Despite being labeled as “Land Warfare” their exposed lead noses classify them as JSP’s and would render them not legal for combat use under current JAG rules. Also shipped was .45 ACP ammunition that has bullets of an ave. weight of 83.5 gr made using a conventional copper jacket into which a lead-antimony nose and nylon core are placed. The exposed lead nose classifies these bullets as JSP’s. No blended metals, exotic materials, or bonding, is noted. Please note that the construction of these LeMas/RBCD .45 ACP handgun rounds, like other ones we have recently assessed, appears use an improved nylon material resulting in more more consistent cores and less core-jacket structural defects than those we previously publicly illustrated at: www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000630#000000 Finally, the 9 mm ammunition sent by modog consists of similar JSP bullets of an ave 59.2 gr weight are similarly made using a conventional copper jacket housing a lead-antimony nose over a round nylon dual ball as noted in the earlier ammunition illustrated at the link above. Again, no blended metals, exotic materials, or bonding.  Of interest, the handgun bullets had an unusual exterior bump/hump/protrusion on the base of the copper jacket, possibly produced when the lead and nylon materials are compressed into the copper jacket. We will begin pressure testing next week. |
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Posted: 2/16/2006 1:01:44 PM EDT
[#15]
tag
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Posted: 2/16/2006 1:19:59 PM EDT
[#16]
The 9mm was manufactured over 3 years ago, but pretty close to what is currently distributed. Accurate pressure data will show is below NATO spec, inaccurate data will show twice the case structural integrity limits from the same ammo lot. The 9mm can be safely fired from any functional weapon system and barrel configuration. The .45acp rounds pictured has not been current production for almost two years. Be very careful of those rounds as they are not suitable for a number of weapon and barrel configurations such as the Glock-21 factory barrels, or S&W 1911 factory barrels. Any after market KKM barrel is suitable for the .45acp ammo in any weapon. The handgun bullet constructions in each of those two calibers can be modified to either fragment after penetrating soft armor or act similar to expanded FMJ bullets after armor penetration. Additionally the bullet core materials can also be modified to fragment in urban construction materials or not. The 5.56 ammo is probably short barrel optimized, but without Lot numbers I can not be sure. The short barrel ammo is optimized for 10-14.5 inch 1/7 twist barrels. Short barrel chrono velocities are approximately 3025 fps from a 10.5 inch, and 3450 fps from the M-4. Pressure testing in long non ported test barrels with 1/7 twist will not accurately depict pressures and will result in a non stable bullet trajectory. The short barrel ammunition will function well in the longer weapon barrel lengths with 1/8 and 1/9 barrel twist. The 1/7 twist 10 inch guns will outperform the 1/9 twist barrels. The 1/9 14.5 inch barrel will outperform the 1/7 twist 14.5 inch barrel. Other barrel lengths and twist rates also affect comparative bullet performance. |
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Posted: 2/16/2006 1:33:39 PM EDT
[#17]
So in other words, you are trying to nip any data from any tests Doc may do in the "bud"... so to speak? All I hear is BS... ETA: I also dont see any lot numbers on any of those boxes... I see LOT.... but I dont see any printed numbers after them. Wasn't a lack of lot numbers a reason some people have refused to post test data about RBCD and LeMas ammo? |
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Posted: 2/16/2006 2:31:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Very interesting pictures, confirms what I was thinking about this ammo. It's a high velocity, light-weight fragmentation round (not a new concept). I'm unsure, though, what keeps the bullet together so it is capable of penetrating armor. |
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Posted: 2/16/2006 4:35:34 PM EDT
[#19]
Velocity. Prolly wont keep much integrity upon leaving the armorplate though. |
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Posted: 2/17/2006 3:48:06 AM EDT
[#20]
crikey. Varmint bullets? Say it ain't so, Doc!
I seem to recall someone saying something to a friend of mine like "Yep, that is me, 30 years of killing, and I know nothing about bullets." Whoops. Guess not. Order Up! Grilled crow, table 5! |
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Posted: 2/17/2006 6:35:38 AM EDT
[#21]
No fair! You've been reading these topics! 
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Posted: 2/17/2006 11:24:04 AM EDT
[#22]
LOL, I think that's the general idea here 
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Posted: 2/18/2006 9:30:09 AM EDT
[#23]
Looking forward to the gel shots.
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Posted: 2/18/2006 10:40:07 AM EDT
[#24]
Me too. Too bad that Bulmer has already (in this thread) provided an 'out' for himself:
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Posted: 2/18/2006 1:25:29 PM EDT
[#25]
Somebody should shoot pigs, then, with other 9mm loads,then shoot the same loads into gelatin, then compare/contrast. |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 1:43:36 PM EDT
[#26]
how the hell isn't it considered cruelty to animals to shoot pigs just to test ammo?
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Posted: 2/18/2006 2:30:20 PM EDT
[#27]
As far as I'm concerned, the argument is already over. "Blended Metal" is nothing more than commercial varmint bullets in rifle calibers, and in handgun calibers is a copper jacket, lead ball, and piece of rubber assembled with a swage. There IS no "Blended Metal". As I said before, the guys who saw this stuff tested, and were amazed by it, are used to seeing the effects of JAG-compliant ammunition. And despite their "30 years of killing" experience (which somehow makes them ballisticians, right?), they know very little about HOW their weapons work. I've been driving a car for 20 years in all kinds of conditions. Does that make me an automotive engineer? Game over. |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 3:04:59 PM EDT
[#28]
It's part of scientific research. Would you prefer they shoot people? |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 3:08:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Also, if the pigs are already euthanized (and usually for test purposes, they are), then the cruelty argument becomes completely moot. |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 3:15:26 PM EDT
[#30]
The only way it could be "blended metal" is if you were to take powdered metals and use some kind of process to bond it into a core. Then you'd arrive at varmint rounds that fragment exactly like we have here anyways, making the term "blended metal" rather moot in relation to what the bullets actually do. Fragmenting and expanding bullets aren't new technology. I'll admit that the pictures of the damage to pigs is impressive, however, would an ordinary, commerical varmint load perform any different ? Those of you who have shot pigs, please chime in. On the other hand, I do like the idea of JSP pistol rounds. They'd feed about as well as ball, yet offer some expansion and still penetrate deeper than pistol JHP and they wouldn't clog up on clothing like JHP's do, either. After all, ordinary 125gr and 158gr JSP loads in .357 Magnum are undeniably effective on humans and light game. Why couldn't one load a bullet with similar construction (but lighter weight) in a 9mm and get similar (probably not identical) performance ? |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 3:20:13 PM EDT
[#31]
well, you can't have your cake and eat it, too...
If these really lightweight pistol rounds expand at all, their sectional density is gonna fall off to a very low number. They will shed velocity very rapidly once they expand and then--they probably won't penetrate very well. Fortunately, testing will either support this or make my speculation erroneous. |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 3:26:15 PM EDT
[#32]
you're not seroiusly calling what that guy is doing "scientific research"? |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 3:27:57 PM EDT
[#33]
Apparently they aren't euthanized, and it seems someone is already trying to get charges filed. link |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 3:33:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Hmm, why would they use live pigs ? Usually, this kind of testing is done on animals that have been euthanized. Even the tests performed by Thompson that led to the adoption of .45 ACP by the military were conducted on euthanized animals. |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 3:46:22 PM EDT
[#35]
"..pigs were hideously wounded by powerful “blended metal” ammunition. One moment, the animals were contentedly eating pumpkins, and the next, they were screaming, bucking, kicking, and trying to run for their lives.." 
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Posted: 2/18/2006 4:03:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Well - that may have been a stretch, huh? 
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Posted: 2/18/2006 4:10:54 PM EDT
[#37]
One more thing after watching the videos: Yes, the pigs are supposed to be anesthesized in order for it to be humane. The videos show absolutely NOTHING stunning when the pigs are shot with any of the rounds. If that was supposed to be a marketing film for LeMas, then I don't get it. Their rounds certainly didn't make the pigs explode or drop dead on the spot. Furthermore, what's the value these shots provide? ANY bullet is deadly when fired into the heart/vital regions from about 5 yards away.
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Posted: 2/18/2006 4:13:01 PM EDT
[#38]
DAMN, that is one F#%KED UP pig!!!
 DAMN, that is one F#%KED UP pig!!! |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 4:55:22 PM EDT
[#39]
That is pretty funny... |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 5:40:42 PM EDT
[#40]
What do you do hotshot? What do you do? Shoot the pumpkins. |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 6:07:55 PM EDT
[#41]
What are you talking about? |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 7:01:28 PM EDT
[#42]
From the link above:
viator |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 7:17:11 PM EDT
[#43]
Wow. That video is as sickening as it is cruel. Somebody please tell me how the video show's lemas' effectiveness? What happened to the awesome power of the land warfare round?!
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Posted: 2/18/2006 7:26:50 PM EDT
[#44]
Because he's a lunatic? Just a guess. That's just f'ed up. |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 7:26:57 PM EDT
[#45]
+1 What the fuck BMT? Shooting live fucking animals? Your ass needs to be banned. |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 7:30:25 PM EDT
[#46]
+1, a well placed .22 will easily kill a pig. Or a man. So I have to agree that it really doesn't prove much other than yes, it's a bullet and therefore does the things that bullets do and yes, it penetrates enough to hit and cause injuries to vital organs that will eventually prove fatal. How many other rounds are capable of the same thing ? In reality, you only have to penetrate about 3 inches or so to reach the human heart anyways. Knives with 3 inch blades are pefectly capable of causing fatal injuries to the heart or lungs. Even knives with shorter blades can reach the heart by virtue of tissue compression. Does tissue compression also apply to bullets ? Knife tests mentioning the effects of tissue compression In relation to the earlier statements in this thread, I would be suspicious of any ammunition manufacturer or representatives of same that would launch into a verbal attack on a well-reputed independent ballistics expert simply because that expert's tests don't favor the ammunition in question. It is always a bad sign when a company feels the need to aggressively promote a product, especially when such aggression takes the form of slamming everyone who disagrees with that company or dislikes the product. If this ammo is so good, it's performance should speak for itself. |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 7:42:07 PM EDT
[#47]
Deffinately no bueno using live pigs for testing. I will say this, I've shot pigs with various calibers from .22 .270, .308 ect. Even .50 cal muzzle loaders. Most of the time if you shoot a hog in the body, the fat/tissue closes around the hole and leaves a pretty poor blood trail. I don't think I've ever seen blood gush out of a pig like that one hit with the 90 grain .45 round. Not trying to say anything in favor of the argument or against, just an observation.
Jake |
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Posted: 2/18/2006 8:07:15 PM EDT
[#48]
I've seen similar. Light, high-velocity bullets tend to do much more in terms of superficial damage than their heavy/slow counterparts. Either one can prove fatal, though, it's just that high-velocity rounds tend to create a wound that appears more dramatic at the expense of penetration. |
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Posted: 2/19/2006 4:03:24 AM EDT
[#49]
Bob1984 originally posted:
Team Member : "+1, a well placed .22 will easily kill a pig. Or a man." My wife tells me all men are pigs..... I know where this thread is going..... 
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Posted: 2/19/2006 5:32:22 AM EDT
[#50]
Boy there are a lot of people around here that are jumping on the PETA bandwagon!! I thought PETA was a bunch of hippy animal huggers. Are you sure you want to take PETA's side????
So shooting animals like deer is ok but shooting hogs isn't? It's a freaking animal. They die quickly. Shoot a pig with a .308 and it'll scream too until it dies. Pigs are incredibly tough animals. Those of you who are horrified that someone shoots live pigs, well nature is a lot harder than that. Just watch a nature show. Watch the nice little predators chase down their prey and then begin feeding while the animal is still alive. Makes a simple shot into a pig look tame in comparison!! I realize that you don't like Stan or what he sells. That's fine. Stick to that. But I think that people around here are looking for any reason to critizize and as a result, a few of you are jumping in with PETA. PETA is the same group of nuts that want to stop all hunting, throw red paint on people wearing fur coats, and are encouraging acts of terrorism to get their point across. I don't think anyone on this site wants to be associated with PETA. If you do, then you need to get off this web site because PETA is a group of liberal anti-gunners and most of us around here(if not all) are here because we like guns. Back to our regularly scheduled discussion/argument/bash fest. |
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