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Posted: 1/18/2006 1:57:01 PM EDT
What should I use as a defense load. My rifle only likes 55gr bullets. What would be best FMJ, HP, SP, Balitic Tip, etc.? I figure my range would be from 1yd to 200yds (given a SHTF situation).
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 2:29:03 PM EDT
I like Hornady TAP
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 2:52:16 PM EDT
q3131 from Winchester.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:16:17 PM EDT
The best stuff around is the XM193 if you can find it. There are some stashes around, but DO NOT BUY WOLF 5.56 ammo for anything other than plinking. Their were some studies that showed the Wolf had no fragmentation upon impact. Also it did not reach the desired velocity from the muzzle. I use PMC and Winchester White box right now with no problems other than crappy mags.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:30:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 3:30:33 PM EDT by JackalAR]

Originally Posted By Hatton007:
q3131 from Winchester.



+1 Save some for me.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:36:53 PM EDT
how do you all think black hills 55grn. would do compared to WWB, q3131 or m193?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:33:17 PM EDT
It may not fragment, but apparently you missed the thread with the hogs that had been shot with Wolf 55gr at like 25 feet. They had a couple of exit wounds the size of tennis balls. It wasn't pretty. The guy dropped them with two shots each.


- rem



Originally Posted By Run_N_GunMedic:
The best stuff around is the XM193 if you can find it. There are some stashes around, but DO NOT BUY WOLF 5.56 ammo for anything other than plinking. Their were some studies that showed the Wolf had no fragmentation upon impact. Also it did not reach the desired velocity from the muzzle. I use PMC and Winchester White box right now with no problems other than crappy mags.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:35:43 PM EDT
So FMJ is ok for selfdefense?

Do ya'll know if UMC or WWB 55gr bullets will fragment?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:42:15 PM EDT
My personal choice for 55gr if money isn't a big issue would be georgia arms 55gr 'precision plus' ammo. Its cheap , ballistic tipped , 1/2 MOA out of my ar15 and will turn a 2 liter pop bottle inside out at 50yds :D
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:06:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Run_N_GunMedic:
The best stuff around is the XM193 if you can find it. There are some stashes around, but DO NOT BUY WOLF 5.56 ammo for anything other than plinking. Their were some studies that showed the Wolf had no fragmentation upon impact. Also it did not reach the desired velocity from the muzzle. I use PMC and Winchester White box right now with no problems other than crappy mags.

I see XM193 everywhere, the gun shop I go to even has several cases.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:22:27 PM EDT
I use Q3131A for practice and general SHTF, but I keep a few mags of Winchester 55 grain soft point around for home/personal defense.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:37:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By caliar15:
I see XM193 everywhere, the gun shop I go to even has several cases.



Buy them... I like TAP as well...

TS
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:42:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 243savage:
What should I use as a defense load. My rifle only likes 55gr bullets. What would be best FMJ, HP, SP, Balitic Tip, etc.? I figure my range would be from 1yd to 200yds (given a SHTF situation).



You've tried all other bullets there are on the market that aren't 55 grain????

Did you try M855?
Did you try 68's?
Did you try 69's?
Did you try 75's?
Did you try the 77's?
Did you try the 60 grain soft points?

And your rifle likes ANY 55 grain bullet out there?

What kind of rifle do you have???

What kind of money do you want to spend on defensive ammo?

Out of the 55's the best would be xm193, Q3131A and alot of us "think" the Q3131's. All other 55's would probably work but aren't highly recommended for Self Defense.

Take it for what it's worth.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:05:37 PM EDT
XM193

Hornady .223 55 gr TAP Law Enforcement ammunition
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:30:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By 243savage:
What should I use as a defense load. My rifle only likes 55gr bullets. What would be best FMJ, HP, SP, Balitic Tip, etc.? I figure my range would be from 1yd to 200yds (given a SHTF situation).



You've tried all other bullets there are on the market that aren't 55 grain????

Did you try M855?
Did you try 68's?
Did you try 69's?
Did you try 75's?
Did you try the 77's?
Did you try the 60 grain soft points?

And your rifle likes ANY 55 grain bullet out there?

What kind of rifle do you have???

What kind of money do you want to spend on defensive ammo?

Out of the 55's the best would be xm193, Q3131A and alot of us "think" the Q3131's. All other 55's would probably work but aren't highly recommended for Self Defense.

Take it for what it's worth.



his bullet selection may be limited due to his barrels twist rate, and if thats the case you wouldnt need to test all the different kinds of bullets to find that out.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:53:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By 243savage:
What should I use as a defense load. My rifle only likes 55gr bullets. What would be best FMJ, HP, SP, Balitic Tip, etc.? I figure my range would be from 1yd to 200yds (given a SHTF situation).



You've tried all other bullets there are on the market that aren't 55 grain????

Did you try M855?
Did you try 68's?
Did you try 69's?
Did you try 75's?
Did you try the 77's?
Did you try the 60 grain soft points?

And your rifle likes ANY 55 grain bullet out there?

What kind of rifle do you have???

What kind of money do you want to spend on defensive ammo?

Out of the 55's the best would be xm193, Q3131A and alot of us "think" the Q3131's. All other 55's would probably work but aren't highly recommended for Self Defense.

Take it for what it's worth.



If it is a 1/12 twist, he should stick with 55.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:40:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 8:02:00 AM EDT

Did you read the AMMO ORACLE in the FAQ section?


Just did. It kind of helped. I'll probable go with SP. Its hard to find 5.56 ammo where I'm at.
My rifle is a 20" HBar with a 1/9" twist. I tested six loads the other day. Four were 55gr, 1 62 gr, and 1 75 gr. The tightest groups came with the 55gr. I was able to get some sub-moa's.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:02:47 AM EDT
Remington makes a good 55 grain sp loading
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:23:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 243savage:

Did you read the AMMO ORACLE in the FAQ section?


Just did. It kind of helped. I'll probable go with SP. Its hard to find 5.56 ammo where I'm at.
My rifle is a 20" HBar with a 1/9" twist. I tested six loads the other day. Four were 55gr, 1 62 gr, and 1 75 gr. The tightest groups came with the 55gr. I was able to get some sub-moa's.



Accurecy, or I should say SUB MOA accurecy isn't important at the ranges most defensive shootings happen at, therefor don't worry about the 55gr ammo being better accurecy wise, use the best bullet and thats going to be something like the 75gr tap or BH 75gr BTHP loads.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 10:00:17 AM EDT
Get TAP or the Winchester Supreme BST, both can be had in 55 Gr
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 11:52:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By 243savage:

Did you read the AMMO ORACLE in the FAQ section?


Just did. It kind of helped. I'll probable go with SP. Its hard to find 5.56 ammo where I'm at.
My rifle is a 20" HBar with a 1/9" twist. I tested six loads the other day. Four were 55gr, 1 62 gr, and 1 75 gr. The tightest groups came with the 55gr. I was able to get some sub-moa's.



Accurecy, or I should say SUB MOA accurecy isn't important at the ranges most defensive shootings happen at, therefor don't worry about the 55gr ammo being better accurecy wise, use the best bullet and thats going to be something like the 75gr tap or BH 75gr BTHP loads.



shooting a 75 grain defense load out of a 1/12" twist is not something you would want to do in a self defense situation, bullets could probably end up keyholing at any distance, or at least, accuracy would suffer so much you wouldnt be able to put a bullet anywhere you want to put it
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 12:19:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 12:21:00 PM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By christ0ph:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By 243savage:

Did you read the AMMO ORACLE in the FAQ section?


Just did. It kind of helped. I'll probable go with SP. Its hard to find 5.56 ammo where I'm at.
My rifle is a 20" HBar with a 1/9" twist. I tested six loads the other day. Four were 55gr, 1 62 gr, and 1 75 gr. The tightest groups came with the 55gr. I was able to get some sub-moa's.



Accurecy, or I should say SUB MOA accurecy isn't important at the ranges most defensive shootings happen at, therefor don't worry about the 55gr ammo being better accurecy wise, use the best bullet and thats going to be something like the 75gr tap or BH 75gr BTHP loads.



shooting a 75 grain defense load out of a 1/12" twist is not something you would want to do in a self defense situation, bullets could probably end up keyholing at any distance, or at least, accuracy would suffer so much you wouldnt be able to put a bullet anywhere you want to put it



Ya um go the fuck back and read before you open yer mouth he says he has a 20in 1/9 twist barrel, do you honestly think I'd have told him to run the 75gr in a 1/12 twist barrel if thats what he said he had? Hell no I'd tell him to run 60gr nosler partitians instead(New FBI duty load as loaded by winchester) Take the fucking time to read before you spout the fuck off.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:25:04 PM EDT



Ya um go the fuck back and read before you open yer mouth he says he has a 20in 1/9 twist barrel, do you honestly think I'd have told him to run the 75gr in a 1/12 twist barrel if thats what he said he had? Hell no I'd tell him to run 60gr nosler partitians instead(New FBI duty load as loaded by winchester) Take the fucking time to read before you spout the fuck off.




Damn, somebody needs a nap.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:33:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dilligaff:


Ya um go the fuck back and read before you open yer mouth he says he has a 20in 1/9 twist barrel, do you honestly think I'd have told him to run the 75gr in a 1/12 twist barrel if thats what he said he had? Hell no I'd tell him to run 60gr nosler partitians instead(New FBI duty load as loaded by winchester) Take the fucking time to read before you spout the fuck off.



Damn, somebody needs a nap.



He needs more than than a nap... Maybe a diaper change. If you are not going to post or responed in a professional manner, then don't.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 5:00:39 PM EDT
Well, it gets kind of irratating responding to all the conjecture sometimes, so I can relate. On top of that it was good advice. It's obvious to me that 243savage has just tried a few loads. Which is fine. If you want to stick with a 55 grain pill, that's fine. There are just more that are alot better, especially since Self Defense was the original question. And he did state that his barrel IS a 1/9, which in my opinion is fair game for any loading, albeit that some of the heavier stuff MAY not fair as well. But a 68/69 loading would be a much better defensive loading, which I'm sure most or all of you know. In my rifles I've tried 68's, 69's, 75's and I'm getting ready to do some 77's in my new upper. One AR that I have I settled on Q3131A for a GP load because it was very accurate (in that rifle), cheap, and somewhat available. I just have a hard time believing that his rifle doesn't like ANY of the loadings over 55 grains. That's all.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 5:37:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:18:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 6:19:29 PM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By pcurtis:

Originally Posted By dilligaff:


Ya um go the fuck back and read before you open yer mouth he says he has a 20in 1/9 twist barrel, do you honestly think I'd have told him to run the 75gr in a 1/12 twist barrel if thats what he said he had? Hell no I'd tell him to run 60gr nosler partitians instead(New FBI duty load as loaded by winchester) Take the fucking time to read before you spout the fuck off.



Damn, somebody needs a nap.



He needs more than than a nap... Maybe a diaper change. If you are not going to post or responed in a professional manner, then don't.


A question was asked I took the time to give a responce that was based on the information given that I took the time to read, not assume like someone else did. I gave my reccomendation off of what the original poster said he had for a barrel twist. i'm not the one that should not have responded, christ0ph's post was of base with the reality of what is being looked at. It was his post not mine that had no relevance because the 243savage doesn;t have a 1/12 twist barrel he has a 1/19. Someone elses failure to read/comprehend and understand the subject matter is not my issue till they tell me that somehow my reccomendation is off which based on the rifles twist rate it is not.

If you don't like that tough shit, it my way of responding was to rough/gruff whatthefuckever for you tough shit thats your issue not mine.

And no I don't need a damn nap I need a beer and some pie!
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:34:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:44:09 PM EDT
my bad, didnt notice any posts saying he had a 1/9 twist
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:53:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
my bad, didnt notice any posts saying he had a 1/9 twist



It would be rare that someone with an AR has a 1/12 twist barrel presently. You're talking stock A1's and XM177's or CAR-15's. How many of those have you seen? Or someone who purposely built it that way. Although the Retro AR's are cool and I wouldn't mind having one. But even savages bolt guns have 1/9 along with some other bolt guns. Although admittedly some of the bolt guns have a 1/14 and 1/12 twist. It just would be rare and that probably added to the irritation. And like he said, he needs a beer and pie. Pumpkin is my favorite. What about you? Plus I'm drinking one of Wisconsin's finest right this instant. Leinenkugel's. I do have a carrot cake in the frige but I don't know if that would constitute as pie. Dang, I can't wait to go shooting again.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:47:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
my bad, didnt notice any posts saying he had a 1/9 twist



It would be rare that someone with an AR has a 1/12 twist barrel presently. You're talking stock A1's and XM177's or CAR-15's. How many of those have you seen? Or someone who purposely built it that way. Although the Retro AR's are cool and I wouldn't mind having one. But even savages bolt guns have 1/9 along with some other bolt guns. Although admittedly some of the bolt guns have a 1/14 and 1/12 twist. It just would be rare and that probably added to the irritation. And like he said, he needs a beer and pie. Pumpkin is my favorite. What about you? Plus I'm drinking one of Wisconsin's finest right this instant. Leinenkugel's. I do have a carrot cake in the frige but I don't know if that would constitute as pie. Dang, I can't wait to go shooting again.




Hey you going to come out to the club the 28th for the NFA shoot, shooting starts at noon. It's going to be a blast plus were having a night shoot as well!!
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 3:25:58 PM EDT
Well. The 62gr and 75gr were staying at 2" to 3" at 100yds. If sub-moa isn't nessacary for SHTF then I'll try and pickup some more loads in that wieght and try them out.
As a side note. One 55gr load I tryed groups 2" to 3" too.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:22:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
my bad, didnt notice any posts saying he had a 1/9 twist



It would be rare that someone with an AR has a 1/12 twist barrel presently. You're talking stock A1's and XM177's or CAR-15's. How many of those have you seen? Or someone who purposely built it that way. Although the Retro AR's are cool and I wouldn't mind having one. But even savages bolt guns have 1/9 along with some other bolt guns. Although admittedly some of the bolt guns have a 1/14 and 1/12 twist. It just would be rare and that probably added to the irritation. And like he said, he needs a beer and pie. Pumpkin is my favorite. What about you? Plus I'm drinking one of Wisconsin's finest right this instant. Leinenkugel's. I do have a carrot cake in the frige but I don't know if that would constitute as pie. Dang, I can't wait to go shooting again.




Hey you going to come out to the club the 28th for the NFA shoot, shooting starts at noon. It's going to be a blast plus were having a night shoot as well!!



I'll look at the calendar. I hope I can. !!!!!!!! Did you get your pie or do I gotta bring some of my carrot cake over. Of course not tonight. It could be deadly to go out on them roads. Yikes!!!! It is pretty though.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:25:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 243savage:
Well. The 62gr and 75gr were staying at 2" to 3" at 100yds. If sub-moa isn't nessacary for SHTF then I'll try and pickup some more loads in that wieght and try them out.
As a side note. One 55gr load I tryed groups 2" to 3" too.



If I had a good suggestion, which is sometimes questionable, it would be to go to the thread titled "Better Performing Self Defense loads:Various calibers" It's a tacked thread at the top of the list of threads. Then try the ones listed that are good performing ammo. There are quite a few choices better than the 55's. Although M193 is still a good choice. Hope that helps.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 7:24:03 AM EDT
Did anyone see the Ayoob article in American Handgunner concerning the federal agent that was using 55 grain Federal JHP overseas. He was supposedly dropping bad guys, but with two shots to the mid-section.

I can in no way vouch for the accuracy of this article, just thought I would pass it along since you said you personally like 55 grain.

I can't get the 55 grain to shoot worth a squat in my rifle, but I have a 1/7 twist. However, I can see the value of going with that weight since anyone with 223 on the shelf in town is only going to have 55 grain.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 1:10:35 PM EDT
Not sure why you're stuck on the idea that you have to use 55gr, but any M193-equivalent (Winchester Q3131, Q3131A, Federal XM193) or Federal 55gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw will have sufficient penetration and at least some fragmentation, most of the time.

I keep a good stash (2K-3K) of the M193 type ammo around, and use it as my zero and practice ammo. It's not the optimal choice for self-defense or SHTF, but it's "good enough" and I can afford to zero, practice, and function test it regularly.
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