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Posted: 12/31/2005 9:01:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 7:45:35 AM EDT by Molon]
http://home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/hornady_tap_boxes.jpg

Red box: Hornday TAP
Black box: Hornday TAP FPD (for personal defense)

The following chronograph data was obtained using an Oehler 35P chronograph, with muzzle velocities calculated from instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software.

The weapons used in testing:

- Colt 20” A2 government profile barrel with 1:7” twist
- Colt 16.1” light weight barrel with 1:7” twist for the 75 grain red box data
- Colt 16.1” M4 barrel with 1:9” twist for all other 16.1” data

All strings of fire consisted of 10 rounds.

Red box MV
black box MV


20 inch barrel: 55 grain bullets

3045 fps
3100 fps

SD=14 fps
SD=23 fps

92 degrees F
81 degrees F


20 inch barrel: 75 grain bullets

2672 fps
2679 fps

SD=20 fps
SD=19 fps

77 degrees F
78 degrees F



16.1” barrel: 55 grain bullets

2890 fps
2992 fps

SD=16
SD=19

79 degrees F
77 degrees F


16.1” barrel: 75 grain bullets

2551 fps
2580 fps

SD=16
SD=17

83 degrees F
77 degrees F
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:14:50 AM EDT
Very surprising I would have thought the 55gr Red box to be much faster?
To much spin?
I would like to see it out of 1in9 twist 20" barrel also.
Thank you great info!
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:40:17 PM EDT
Good info. Thanks for the posting
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 10:59:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 357sig:
Good info. Thanks for the posting



You're welcome!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:15:41 PM EDT
Very Interesting! thanks!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:16:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 8:17:50 PM EDT by elokoman]
accidental double post, please delete
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:33:34 PM EDT
I wonder why the difference between the two. I called Hornady two weeks ago and was told that the only difference between the red box & black box was the brass. Guess that wasn't accurate? Would a different case cause a noticeable difference in performance?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 10:12:46 PM EDT
Its just the difference in two different lots of ammo. I have seen differences like that between different lots on more than one occasion.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 10:20:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
Its just the difference in two different lots of ammo. I have seen differences like that between different lots on more than one occasion.



And even different strings fired within minutes. I don't see much spread at all from these results.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:46:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 9:43:33 AM EDT by Molon]

Originally Posted By phylodog:
I wonder why the difference between the two. I called Hornady two weeks ago and was told that the only difference between the red box & black box was the brass. Guess that wasn't accurate? Would a different case cause a noticeable difference in performance?



While I'm not saying this is the case (no pun intended) with the Hornady ammo, different cases can have an effect on muzzle velocity. Allow me to illustrate.

The following four loads used the exact same lots of bullets (Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings), primers and powder as well as the same weighed powder charges and were fired from the same weapon on the same day. The only difference between the loads was the case used. The barrel used was a 20" stainless steel Krieger DCM with a 1:9" twist and the ambient temperature was 78 degrees F for all strings of fire, which consisted of 10 rounds each.


case
muzzle velocity


Lake City
average weight 91.8 grains
3004 fps


Winchester (commercial)
average weight 93.0 grains
3012 fps


Federal Gold Medal
average weight 95.8 grains
3058 fps


Lapua (standard)
average weight 101.1 grains
3094 fps


Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:54:06 PM EDT
I shot some of the red box, 75 gr, from my delta elite this weekend. I got 3/4" group at 100yds.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 10:11:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 4:35:09 PM EDT by Molon]
This is the best 10-shot group at 100 yards that I have obtained so far using the 55 grain TAP. Group fired from a Colt 16" HBAR; 1.068". (the black aiming square is 2" wide)

http://home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/55_tap_10_shot_group.jpg
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:30:47 PM EDT
Great info; thanks!

Justin
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:35:15 PM EDT
So much for the "gotta have" tactical stuff.....
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:30:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 2:25:01 PM EDT by Molon]
Here's a little info on the cases used in the TAP ammo.

(left) Red box TAP average case weight: 97.2 grains

(right) Black box TAP average case weight: 97.1 grains





Link Posted: 1/10/2006 3:43:12 PM EDT
wish someone did this kind a research with BHs75
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 4:20:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/29/2006 11:06:04 AM EDT by Molon]

Originally Posted By drabchoi:
wish someone did this kind a research with BHs75


I don't have any info on the Black Hills 75s, but here is some chronograph data for their 77 grain Mk262 loads.



The ammo loaded with the 77 grain Nosler OTM is from the original ar15.com special group purchase. The rounds loaded with the Sierra 77 grain MATCH HP are Black Hills 2nds purchased from Cabela's.


Rounds were chronographed using an Oehler 35-P chronograph. Muzzle velocities were calculated from instrumental velocities using Oehler's Ballistic Explorer software. All strings of fire consisted of 10 rounds.


Nosler
Sierra 2nds


Colt 20" A2 1:7" twist

2867 fps
2806 fps


Colt 16.1" M4 1:9" twist

2770 fps
2710 fps


Colt 14.5" M4 1:7" twist

2630 fps
2628 fps



Link Posted: 1/10/2006 4:48:42 PM EDT
thanks but I have no access to MK262 and mostly shoot BH75...Regardless..it seems that the commercial loads are about 120-150fps slower....

I like the Hornady but alittle expensive when you have an AR....(semi makes me shoot more)
BHs is a lot cheaper but has a slower velocity and I want something with some ballistics to 600yards... at least until BHs starts selling the MK262 commercially...
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 4:51:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Molon:

Originally Posted By drabchoi:
wish someone did this kind a research with BHs75


I don't have any info on the Black Hills 75s, but here is some chronograph data for their 77 grain Mk262 loads.

home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/mk262.jpg

The ammo loaded with the 77 grain Nosler OTM is from the original ar15.com special group purchase. The rounds loaded with the Sierra 77 grain MATCH HP are Black Hills 2nds purchased from Cabela's.


Rounds were chronographed using an Oehler 35-P chronograph. Muzzle velocities were calculated from instrumental velocities using Oehler's Ballistic Explorer software. All strings of fire consisted of 10 rounds.


Nosler
Sierra 2nds


Colt 20" A2 1:7" twist

2867 fps
2806 fps


Colt 16.1" M4 1:9" twist

2770 fps
2710 fps


Colt 14.5" M4 1:7" twist

2630 fps
2628 fps



For additional comparison I have chronogrpahed 6 different lots of 77 grain Federal Gold Medal ammo. The combined average muzzle velocity of all six lots was 2577 fps when fired from the same Colt 20" A2 barrel.



Can one buy those BH nosler rounds? Do you have a source for them? Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 5:17:35 PM EDT
Great info thanks for taking the time to shoot them and post it!
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 6:05:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Governor:

Originally Posted By Molon:

Originally Posted By drabchoi:
wish someone did this kind a research with BHs75


I don't have any info on the Black Hills 75s, but here is some chronograph data for their 77 grain Mk262 loads.

home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/mk262.jpg

The ammo loaded with the 77 grain Nosler OTM is from the original ar15.com special group purchase. The rounds loaded with the Sierra 77 grain MATCH HP are Black Hills 2nds purchased from Cabela's.


Rounds were chronographed using an Oehler 35-P chronograph. Muzzle velocities were calculated from instrumental velocities using Oehler's Ballistic Explorer software. All strings of fire consisted of 10 rounds.


Nosler
Sierra 2nds


Colt 20" A2 1:7" twist

2867 fps
2806 fps


Colt 16.1" M4 1:9" twist

2770 fps
2710 fps


Colt 14.5" M4 1:7" twist

2630 fps
2628 fps



For additional comparison I have chronogrpahed 6 different lots of 77 grain Federal Gold Medal ammo. The combined average muzzle velocity of all six lots was 2577 fps when fired from the same Colt 20" A2 barrel.



Can one buy those BH nosler rounds? Do you have a source for them? Thanks.



The Nosler loaded rounds were from a special run made for the ar15.com group buy. I don't know of any other source for them.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:10:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 8:04:51 AM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
So much for the "gotta have" tactical stuff.....



I am a little lost. Could you please explain what this means?

If you mean the red box is "gotta have" stuff you are missing out on a few details. The "gotta have tacital stuff" is 5.56 pressure red box TAP. It runs 150 fps faster then the black box that was chronoed against the older civilian red box. The red box tested is just "the old civilian stuff" not the "gotta have LE only" stuff.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:15:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 7:15:51 AM EDT by WolfFox]
Glad I weent with the Black Box stuff.

BTW: Thanks, for the info!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:26:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 8:27:31 AM EDT by imposter]
BTW, I get 2500 fps from BH red box 75 grain BTHP from a BFI 16" 1/7.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 7:54:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 8:21:31 AM EDT by Molon]

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
So much for the "gotta have" tactical stuff.....



I am a little lost. Could you please explain what this means?

If you mean the red box is "gotta have" stuff you are missing out on a few details. The "gotta have tacital stuff" is 5.56 pressure red box TAP. It runs 150 fps faster then the black box that was chronoed against the older civilian red box. The red box tested is just "the old civilian stuff" not the "gotta have LE only" stuff.



Correct. The red box figures I posted were for "the old civilian stuff". I wasn't trying to mislead anyone. I just thought it was clear that the red box figures were not the higher pressure LE only rounds since I never mentioned the phrase "LE only". Sorry for any confusion.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:26:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Governor:
Can one buy those BH nosler rounds? Do you have a source for them? Thanks.



Most likely not (I have searched high and low), so your only option is to put a cannelure on yourself. I have seen pics of this done by a local VA reloader and it works very well.

The non-cannelure 77g. Noslers are avialable online or at any decent gun shop that stocks reload stuff...

Rmpl
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 1:09:29 PM EDT
I just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I always wondered why tap and tap fpd were different. I also wondered why hornady didn't sell the red box to civvies. I guess it's because they couldn't charge so much, since the case is the normal brass case. Well, I guess I'll be looking for some FPD stuff for one magazine. Seems to be a decent load, but after what I saw about the WWB stuff...I'm not really sure that paying more for a hornady load will do me any better.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:43:01 AM EDT
Again, the red box in this test was ALWAYS available to civilians and could be ordered online and was done so by members all the time. I dont see why this is so hard to understand. It was not LE restricted ammo. Hornady allowed its sale to civilians. The only restricted ammo they sell is the 5.56 pressure red box which is a completely different ammo.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:47:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:

Originally Posted By Governor:
Can one buy those BH nosler rounds? Do you have a source for them? Thanks.



Most likely not (I have searched high and low), so your only option is to put a cannelure on yourself. I have seen pics of this done by a local VA reloader and it works very well.

The non-cannelure 77g. Noslers are avialable online or at any decent gun shop that stocks reload stuff...

Rmpl



Correct these are not available. The company that sold them ripped off AR15.com members who ordered that ammo and stole their money after the first batch. They (AR15.com) then allowed this same individual to come back on AR15.com as a new company and he proceeded to rip off more AR15.com members before finally being banned. The ammo was never very accurate and was about 1.5-2 MOA ammo from reports given by owners. There are people who will sell it who got the first run sent to them but you will never be able reorder unless you can front enough money for 20K rounds of ammo to get another run made.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:50:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Governor:

Can one buy those BH nosler rounds? Do you have a source for them? Thanks.



Fulton Armory sells these as does Cabela's (it is listed at Cabela's as the Black Hills new manufacture 77gr MCKL load)
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:29:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 7:32:21 AM EDT by Molon]

Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:

Originally Posted By Governor:

Can one buy those BH nosler rounds? Do you have a source for them? Thanks.



Fulton Armory sells these as does Cabela's (it is listed at Cabela's as the Black Hills new manufacture 77gr MCKL load)



The Black Hills 77 grain ammunition sold by Cabela's is not loaded with the Nosler bullets. It uses the Sierra MatchKing bullets and the code is MKCL (MatchKing cannelure).
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:43:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:

Originally Posted By Governor:

Can one buy those BH nosler rounds? Do you have a source for them? Thanks.



Fulton Armory sells these as does Cabela's (it is listed at Cabela's as the Black Hills new manufacture 77gr MCKL load)



Nobody sells the Nosler round BH. That was a limited deal a couple of years ago. MK262 offered by Fulton & Cabela's uses the 77gr Sierra Match King (SMK).
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:23:43 AM EDT
So the extra pressure 5.56 red box TAP would do how much more damage than the civie black box stuff?

Thanks
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:39:37 AM EDT
My bad, I didn't pay attention to the text; just the photograph.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:27:11 PM EDT
The 5.56 version extends the range that the ammo fragments at about 50 yards over the .223 pressure loaded version. The velocity and terminal effectiveness of the 5.56 version will be the same at 50 yards as the .223 at contact type distances, however you want to look at it. Higher velocities yeild slightly higher fragmentation % than lower velocities in the fragmentation threshold but this is not a very big deal. The point at which the round fails to fragment is where you get a major drop in tissue damage.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:19:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
My bad, I didn't pay attention to the text; just the photograph.



[Ah-nold voice on] No problemo! [Ah-nold voice off]
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 8:36:17 AM EDT
A little more info.
I pulled a bullet from a red box and a black box 55 grain TAP cartridge for comparison. The red box cartridge has a Hodgdon-like extruded powder with a 24.2 grain charge. The black box cartridge also has a Hodgdon-like extruded powder with a 23.8 grain charge.




Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:02:04 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:57:04 PM EDT
Varget or H4895?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:29:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ghostface:
Varget or H4895?



There's no way to tell just by looking at it. More than likely it's a proprietary non-canister grade powder that you and I will never have access to.

I can tell you the powder is definitely not VarGet. VarGet has a longer kernel length. The powder from the TAP cartridge has a kernel length closer to Benchmark. The picture below shows VarGet on the left and Benchmark on the right for comparison.


Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:48:07 AM EDT
More trivia. This is from a red box 75 grain TAP round. The powder is a short-cut extruded type with a charge of 23.6 grains. (I have to order more of the black box for comparison.)


Link Posted: 1/22/2006 8:07:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 8:10:11 AM EDT by jmart]

Originally Posted By Molon:
A little more info.
I pulled a bullet from a red box and a black box 55 grain TAP cartridge for comparison. The red box cartridge has a Hodgdon-like extruded powder with a 24.2 grain charge. The black box cartridge also has a Hodgdon-like extruded powder with a 23.8 grain charge.

home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/pulled55a.jpg

home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/pulled55b.jpg



Looks like Benchmark or maybe 322. Like someone posted above, probably a non-cannister grade powder that isn't available on the open market, but if it is a powder like BM/322, I'm surprised they picked something that quick. The selection may have had as much to do with having a small enough kernel size to work through automated loaders loading small .224 necks. The other option would have been ball powder. But if higher velocity were desired, something with a slower burning rate like Varget, RL-15, H-4895 would have been a better choice, but again, it doesn't meter as well.

ETA: Duh, now I see you pulled powder from 55 grain loads. BM/322 would make perfect sense in that application. Note to jmart -- read the #$%^ing post next time.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 5:03:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:

Originally Posted By Governor:
Can one buy those BH nosler rounds? Do you have a source for them? Thanks.



Most likely not (I have searched high and low), so your only option is to put a cannelure on yourself. I have seen pics of this done by a local VA reloader and it works very well.

The non-cannelure 77g. Noslers are avialable online or at any decent gun shop that stocks reload stuff...

Rmpl




I do the same thing I have 1200 rounds of 75gn Hornady that I loaded and added my own cannelure too. Works well. Good/cheap SHTF ammo.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 11:13:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GlocksareGood:

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn:

Originally Posted By Governor:
Can one buy those BH nosler rounds? Do you have a source for them? Thanks.



Most likely not (I have searched high and low), so your only option is to put a cannelure on yourself. I have seen pics of this done by a local VA reloader and it works very well.

The non-cannelure 77g. Noslers are avialable online or at any decent gun shop that stocks reload stuff...

Rmpl




I do the same thing I have 1200 rounds of 75gn Hornady that I loaded and added my own cannelure too. Works well. Good/cheap SHTF ammo.



I wonder if Hornady will sell the cannelured 75gr bullets. (they seem to do so for BH, unless BH applies the cannelure themselves)

I dont see why that would be a problem.

Has anyone asked Hornady about this?

If not I will.

Personally Im getting tired of waiting for manufacturers to produce the ammo I want.

I've got 2000 new unfired Winchester 5.56 cases.

Im going to make my own 5.56 TAP

Cal
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 8:43:17 PM EDT
All reports indicate Hornady TAP-FPD (black box) 75 gr is exactly the same as the Hornady TAP (red box) 75gr .223 with of course the exception of the black nickel case on the TAP-FPD. So the question is: why offer both types? The red box is NOT limited to LEO sales, nor is the black box FPD...why does Hornady sell both? I could see if they charged more for the black nickel on the FPD/black box..maybe that is why.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 8:51:20 PM EDT
I'm comparing Hornady TAP-FPD (black box) .223 75grain Vs. the Hornady TAP (red box) .223 75grain right now. I see a difference in the size of the hollow point diameter: the FPD bullets have larger diameter hollow points compared to the red box TAP...could be insignificant and chalked up to batch differences...any opinions?
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 1:31:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 1:32:54 AM EDT by wyv3rn]
The red box was being sold to vendors as LEO ammunition on tax forms and was not being taxed properly. When tax time came around someone had to cough up a bunch of money because it was being sold to civilians like any other ammunition. Thus Hornady replaced normal .223 pressure TAP with TAP FPD which is sold to vendors and taxed properly, hence the generally higher price than the original .223 pressure TAP when it was around. The differences in the bullet are minor batch variations, it is not a different bullet. Both loads shoot to the same point of impact. TAP FPD was created purely because of federal tax issues.

Personally I do not like the black nickel as it tends to chip off during firing and I imagine it gets all over inside the firearm but I haven't shot enough of it to be able to find it in quantity inside my firearm. Nor do I have a desire to. I'll keep my stock of red box TAP and grab more of it where I can but have otherwise switched to BH Red Box 75gr until Hornady starts loading TAP FPD in normal brass (if they ever do).
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