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Posted: 12/24/2005 10:02:13 AM EDT
Ok I have been looking at the .223/5.56 for awhile now. The only real concern I had with it was pentration. I know the M855 will break up on impact at closer distances and then past 100yds it will penetrate without breaking up. Has anyone ever tried pulling M855 bullets and seating them in loaded wolf cases. The Wolf has less velocity so you should be able to penetrate anything you want from the muzzle out to maybe penetrating a helmet up to atleast 400 yds. Now take those pulled wolf bullets and load them into the M855 cases. With the heavier jacket on the wolf loaded into the M855 you might be able to penetrate car doors and such under 100yds without the bullet fraging.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 1:06:05 PM EDT
.223/5.56 penetrates hard barriers well because of velocity. If you dont want your ammo to break up get Federal TBBC bullets and load those or just use Federal factory TBBC in the hunting line of loaded ammo. Putting SS109 in a Wolf case is about the worst idea I have ever heard.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:33:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
.223/5.56 penetrates hard barriers well because of velocity. If you dont want your ammo to break up get Federal TBBC bullets and load those or just use Federal factory TBBC in the hunting line of loaded ammo. Putting SS109 in a Wolf case is about the worst idea I have ever heard.



I think you missed the point...

Take a car for example. If I were shooing at a car at 50 yards the M855 would hit the first side and fragment with only small pieces of frag coming out the other side. This would be less than lethal to the target on the other side. Move that same car out to 150 yards and the M855 has lost enough velocity that it will come out the other side of the car in one piece. By loading M855 into wolf cases you could shoot that same car at point blank and further out and it would always penetrate through without fragmenting.

Sure with M855 you can penetrate a barrier from 100-600yds. Most engagements are not at those ranges. The M855 as a "penetrating round" would be more effective if it's penetrating range was from 0-400yds.

Loading Wolf bullets into M855 cases gives you a thick jacketed bullet without a canalure that probably won't fragment under 100 yards even at the M855 muzzle velocity. It probably wouldn't penetrate as well past 200+ yards but it would probably do well from 0-200 yards.

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 4:43:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
.223/5.56 penetrates hard barriers well because of velocity. If you dont want your ammo to break up get Federal TBBC bullets and load those or just use Federal factory TBBC in the hunting line of loaded ammo. Putting SS109 in a Wolf case is about the worst idea I have ever heard.



I agree with DevL. I get your point and I am sure he gets the point you are trying to make. Anyone who knows ammunition and reloading would not pull projectiles from tier 1 ammo to put with tier 2 components. I am sorry, but that part of your question does not make sense to me. I also agree that where penetration is concerned velocity is a key factor as well as bullet construction. If you really wish to test your theory then get into reloading, and buy yourself some pulled ss109 projectiles and load them to a lower velocity. I think you will actually find a decrease in penetration.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 12:55:35 AM EDT
Sounds like a lot of work for making substandard ammo.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 1:13:42 AM EDT
Velocity varies with barrel length, what barrel?
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:29:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 6:30:50 AM EDT by Big-FED]

Originally Posted By Siglite:

Originally Posted By DevL:
.223/5.56 penetrates hard barriers well because of velocity. If you dont want your ammo to break up get Federal TBBC bullets and load those or just use Federal factory TBBC in the hunting line of loaded ammo. Putting SS109 in a Wolf case is about the worst idea I have ever heard.



I agree with DevL. I get your point and I am sure he gets the point you are trying to make. Anyone who knows ammunition and reloading would not pull projectiles from tier 1 ammo to put with tier 2 components. I am sorry, but that part of your question does not make sense to me. I also agree that where penetration is concerned velocity is a key factor as well as bullet construction. If you really wish to test your theory then get into reloading, and buy yourself some pulled ss109 projectiles and load them to a lower velocity. I think you will actually find a decrease in penetration.



Not only agree with the above, but screwing around (performing reloading functions) with loaded ammo is NOT recommended unless you have someting against some of your fingers or want a white cane and dog to lead you around the rest of your life. Wolf bullets are sealed so you would need to(should) run them through a seating die first to break the sealant (and that doesn't always work) for pulling the bullets either with a kinetic or collet type puller. The sealant makes them difficult (almost impossible) to pull unless you do the above. If you use a collet type, you stand a big chance by leaving small surface damage to the bullet, adversely affecting very terminal performance you are trying to gain.

And you are spending a lot of time and additional cost for something that would be unproven and unreliable. Not the most clever way to spend either time or money, but both are yours to spend.

BTW, how many fingers do you have on each hand now?
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:39:55 AM EDT
55gr xm193 wont "do" a car ? What kind car you guys got ? I shoot an old A1 franken gun that will easly shoot thru 1/4 steel at 100yds almost like a drill bit . It goes thru an old van like butter side ways havent tried shooting thru the engine

Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:58:18 AM EDT
"You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"


Originally Posted By Rocklock:
55gr xm193 wont "do" a car ? What kind car you guys got ? I shoot an old A1 franken gun that will easly shoot thru 1/4 steel at 100yds almost like a drill bit . It goes thru an old van like butter side ways havent tried shooting thru the engine


Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:44:27 AM EDT
Wait, this guy wants to use Wolf bullets in a brass case, or SS109 bullets in a Wolf case?


BTW, I found a place that sells Wolf bullets as components. And they are dirt cheap, cheaper than the cheapest 55gr cannelured FMJ bulk pack price you can get. Accuracy must be terrible, but for blasting ammo....Then again, they might be decent because a handloader will achieve consistant velocities, unlike factory Wolf who's got a pretty extreme spread.


I'm not sure if Wolf bullets offer any real improved penetration. They are said to not fragment in tissue or gel due to the bimetal jackets being so thick and hard. But hard targets like car doors will have a different effect on them. I saw a video from Iraq where some MP guards mowed down a vehicle that wouldn't stop. They swiss cheesed it pretty bad. A lot of hits on the windshield and hood, and they penetrated the dashboard, then the terrorist, then the seat they were sitting in.


People tend to get some strange impressions on the net. Internet switches from a great information source, to a misinformation source. .223 is pretty serious, and it penetrates a LOT. It just isn't so good through dense barriers, like say...a wall of sandbags, or 1ft of cement. But neither is .308. .223 has less tolernace for these barriers due to it not being able to stay in 1 piece. However, as long as it stays in 1 piece, it is penetrating far. Hell, the 22LR that people dismiss as a mouse caliber penetrates pretty far.


"Police use .223 because it penetrates less indoors" yeah right! lol. "Less"...what's that? 9 walls instead of 11?


I agree with the guy above, get that Federal bonded bullet. That's probably your best bet as a "penetrator"...If your serious about penetration, get a Garand then buy some mil-surp black tip (AP). That should go through a few cars.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 10:04:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 10:04:54 AM EDT by DevL]
Xenogy,

.223 penetrates MORE hard material the faster it is moving. You want all the velocity you can get for penetration. If you have a problem with SS109 ripping off its penetrator the solution is NOT reducing the velocity. You need a bullet with a boded jacket and core to hold together. I understood your idea and told you to get BARRIER AMMO in the form of TBBC ammo. You want it as hot as possible. The slower the bullet travels the less hard stuff (armor, metal, etc) it will penetrate. Reducing the velocity of an inferior bullet design for your application is not the answer. Loading SS109 into a Wolf case is the worst idea I ever heard of. Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? The best barrier ammo is TBBC. Why would you put together some crap instead of using the superior projectile?
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:16:07 PM EDT
For reference I was using 16 inch barrel data

Cartridge information 5.56mm M855 62gr Ball with BC of .304
Fragmentation Threshold 2700 fps 16" 90 yards

I was looking to create specialty ammo for use under the fragmentation threshold. Ammo to be used at less than 100 yards only. M855 fired at 50 yards will not penetrate until it's below 2700 fps fragmentation threshold. In order to achieve that you have to run out to 90+ yards. If your caught in an engagement with enemy taking cover on the other side of a car 50 yards away he will laugh at you because your M855 fragments on the first door and he can stay there all day long until you move out to 90+ yards. In the meantime his AK-47 will shoot straight through the car your taking cover behind like butter.

So you are saying that Federal TBBC will penetrate better at 50 yards than M855 will at 100 yards? I was using the idea of M855 due to the bullet's ability to penetrate. Drop down to the fragmentation threshold and you would be able to penetrate at 50 yards just as well as you would at just over 100 yards where the M855 starts to penetrate.

I wasn't looking to run out and do this and blast away. I was looking for information to help with my understanding of why M855 is loaded like it is. I still don't see why this is even close to the worst idea ever. Would M855 not have sufficient penetration at 100 yards to go through both sides of a car? If not then it's completely useless ammo.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 8:00:36 AM EDT
I am reminded of mixing chicken shit and ice cream. It doesn't do much to the chicken shit, but it sure dicks up the ice cream.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 8:51:45 AM EDT
1kg of Jam + 1kg of shit = 2kg of shit
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:02:48 PM EDT
Haven't got a whole lot to say, but I did some experimenting on Christmas.

At about 25 yds I fired at 3/8" plate steel. Nothing weak about it.

M855 Winchester penetrated but the bullet wasn't going totally straight anymore.

WWB 55gr FMJ put a good dent in the steel but didn't go through.
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:59:07 PM EDT
My blue steel beauty .


Originally Posted By Punani:
"You'll shoot your eye out, kid!"


Originally Posted By Rocklock:
55gr xm193 wont "do" a car ? What kind car you guys got ? I shoot an old A1 franken gun that will easly shoot thru 1/4 steel at 100yds almost like a drill bit . It goes thru an old van like butter side ways havent tried shooting thru the engine



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