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Posted: 3/9/2005 1:13:49 PM EDT
| How do you Combat load your magazines? I've alway's heard of loading tracers for the 10th, 20th, 28th, 29th, and 30th round. What about all the other types of ammo? (TAP, AP, API, APIT, etc.) |
Using a tracer for the 28th, 29th and 30th is like yelling out to the enemy that you are changing mags. |
| O.K., Let me clarify my point. I'm talking about squad sized tactics that my group practices. So I'm not the only one the zombies have to worry about. Most of these cheese dicks won't know what it will means when three tracers come at them other than it's time to change their panties. I've been over the Ammo Oracle so many times my eyes are still glazed over. What I'm suggesting is loading my mags with rounds that have about the same size bullet so as not to throw my POI way off. (example: 1st rd 62gr Hornady TAP, 2nd rd M855 GT. 3rd rd AP) I'm using a Colt M4 with a 16" barrel so I'm not planning on engaging any targets beyond 150 yrds with it. |
The grain size doesnt matter, its the load. ie: 62grn TAP will shoot different than M855. YMMV Remman |
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It's been a long time since I've shot, but IIRC, my rifle is sighted in with South African battlepack ammo/Winchester white box, both 55grn. They shoot pretty much the same. If I shoot 62grn IMI M855 ammo, it shoots about 2 inches low and an inch to the right, consistently. In other words, I could alternate the 2 rounds and have 2 completely different groups. This is out of a 14.5 inch Colt M4 barrel, shooting at 50yds. If I'm thinking right, that would mean that the IMI ammo would shoot about 6 inches low and 3 inches to the right at 150yds. It's not worth it IMO. My SAR-1 with Wolf shoots a helluva lot better than that. |
| Mixing ammo is not a bad idea. The Army practices it all the time in MG's with a one in five tracer to ball ratio. If you're engaging targets within rifle range, the shift of POA POI between ball, AP, API, and tracer isn't enough to make you miss the 'E' sillouete. Marking the bottom of a magazine with a tracer somewhere in the last five rounds will keep you from running out of ammo at the wrong time. The thought that the enemy is going to hone in on your position is about as absurd as the notion that the sound of the ejecting en-block clip of the M-1 Garand was going to get you killed. I was a small arms instructor in the USAR and I'll say it again,there is nothing worng with mixing ammo. |
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Mixing ammo is not a bad idea. The Army practices it all the time in MG's with a one in five tracer to ball ratio. If you're engaging targets within rifle range, the shift of POA POI between ball, AP, API, and tracer isn't enough to make you miss the 'E' sillouete. Marking the bottom of a magazine with a tracer somewhere in the last five rounds will keep you from running out of ammo at the wrong time. The thought that the enemy is going to hone in on your position is about as absurd as the notion that the sound of the ejecting en-block clip of the M-1 Garand was going to get you killed. I was a small arms instructor in the USAR and I'll say it again,there is nothing worng with mixing ammo. Thank you, that's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not keen on the idea about lighting off 5 tracers in a row in my M4. Three is the maximum I feel warm and fuzzy about. But that's not all that I'm trying to pick people's brains about. From the research I've been able to do so far, certain loads have close to the same bullet weight and ballistics, but are different bullets. You guy's are over-thinking this. |
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This is what I used in Afganistan and Iraq. My mag in the weapon was always a 20 rounder. weapon was zeroed for the heavier 77gn mod 262 stuff M-4, M16A3: 20 rd mag: 2 M855 ball (If I had to bust up a windshield,etc.) 2-3 mod 262 77gn 1 M856 tracer 1 M855 ball 4 mod 262, 77 gn 1 tracer down to the bottom and the last 2 tracers 30 rd mag (28 rounds in each for me): 2 ball 2 77gn. 1 Tracer 1 ball 5 77gn 1 tracer until the end then 2-3 tracers (whaever equals it out to 28) SPR: 20 rd mags mostly just filled with 77gn stuff some had the last one as a tracer. I had a few with the first three m855 and 1 855 every 5 rounds for urban usage. |
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HBARgunner, do you have a 1/7” twist bbl.? If not, M856 Tracer may not be very accurate out of it. As far as the logic of mixing rounds, I don’t really have any information that hasn’t already been covered in the Ammo Oracle or this thread. Personally, I like to be sure of what load I have in the chamber at any given time, so mixing within mags is not something I would consider. However, I would consider having different ammo in different mags and using some marking system (different colored tape, perhaps). Maybe load most mags with XM-193 for general purpose and load a couple with 55gr. Ballistic Tips for limb shots on targets with hard body armor. My situation is probably much different than yours and these are just my preferences. |
| I've got a HBAR with a 1/7 20" barrel that I picked up before the ban. I just got a M4 with a 1/7 16" barrel that I'm "personalizing". I've been reading the fine research that the team members put on this site and the AMMO ORACLE. It got me thinking about how to load my magazines with different ammo so one type makes up for the shortcomings of another. KMFDM's formula is what I'm looking for. His set-up appears to me to be for sentry duty, the first rounds to get though the windshield and kill the driver. |
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I will say its stupid beyond belief to use different loads in the same magazine. You never know what your next round is, they have different POI etc. If you want have a mag of 75 grain TAP and a SEPERATE MAGAZINE of 62 grain TBBC for barriers. Once I hear someone say they use more than one bullet type in a rifle or pistol I remember to NEVER EVER listen to anything that person ever has to say again no matter what their age or position. This goes for shotguns loaded with birdshot, buck shot then slugs, pistols alternating HP and FMJ or different rounds in an AR15. In my eyes if you do it you are completely without logic and reason in my eyes. I will also add that the tracers in the mag tells the enemy your about to run out of ammo may be true but tracers SUCK for terminal ballistics and you will NEVER in your lifetime encounter fire as a civilian where you will be able to 1. See the tracer 2. Be able to get to cover and stop shooting a round early 3. That round allows a tac reload that is ulitmatly responsible for saving your life on round 29 or 30. Its just moronic to put less than the best round you can in your AR for a full capacity of 30 rounds. I dont do 28 rounds either and tac reload on a closed chamber just fine. Also M855 sucks through autoglass as the penetrator rips off and the bullet sheds its jacket... it has POOR terminal performance through auto glass. Like I said ONLY do an extra mag with TBBC Federal loading for barriers and use 68-77 OTM type bullets for the rest. The loads at range would be all over the place. I can say from shooting a Crane built SPR at range that M856 and a 77 grain projectile both in the same mag means if you fire the 20th round and its a tracer it means AUTOMATIC MISS at 300 yards and beyond. WHY would someone use an ammo with poor terminal performance and GUARANTEED misses for 5% of the capacity? It makes zero sense to me. Neither does the carefully planned loading for the mags designed for some odd particular scenario that was envisioned. You want reliable, consistant, repeatable performance and not some crap shoot where you have to count rounds to try and figure out what round is in the chamber. A note to NOT mix rounds in your magazine really should be added to the ammo oracle. |
| Ball tracer mixes in 4:1 to 7:1 are used to walk automatic fire onto a target. I am not so sure I see the value in a 3 round burst in current M16s. I dont see the use in walking on automatic fire from a magazine fed rifle with 30 round or less capacity. The guys issued full auto rifles are well trained and can get hits with the sights using small bursts or semi auto fire. At the range you could use tracers for walking on fire you should be using semi auto anyway in an M4. The use in a belt fed machinegun is certainly a different story. |
How about 1st 2nd as tracer and 29th ad 30th as tracers. Harder for the bg's to discern full mag from empty mag. I do this for my stored mags, but as far as practice goes I leave the tracers at home, except for the occasions I rotate out the older bullets. |
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