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Posted: 3/23/2004 11:11:00 AM EDT
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I came to realization the other day I have a terrible problem with ammo Moochers. I realized the issue existed when yesterday, a friend of mine (who is a recent gun convert of a slimy liberal family) and I went out to the range. After a full afternoon of shooting my ammo, through my guns (He left his at home where he attends school. We are both in college and he was home for spring break), at the range I have a membership to, and driving around in my car. At the end of the day, nothing was offered for ammo. The BIG kicker, we had just bought ammo right before we went to the range, he just didn't bring his out when we were shooting. After being a little bit angered. I looked back at about everyone I had shot with, at the range, camping, hiking etc. Dang it if I've NEVER been reimbersed for any .270 we've shot, and especially .223 on my recent trips. Shotgun shells, for some reason, I have not had this problem. Then I realized, much of this could probably be due to the fact that I reload much of my ammo. Do people naturally think because of that, or because I shoot alot, somehow I get it for free, or I don't have to buy it the same place everyone else does? Sure, most of my buddies aren't as much about guns as I am, but I find it pretty obvious ammo doesn't grow on trees. I mean, on a road trip, don't you offer to pitch in for gas? Anyone else have this severe problem, because it is starting to force me to become a by-his-self shooter. Nobody likes an ammo a$$hole, and it seems like I'm surrounded by them. Gundraw P.S. Sorry, had to repost, I messed up the poll the first time. Sorry Wingman! |
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this is a delicate topic. 1. if i invite someone (the first time). i pay %100. 2. if i invite a chick i pay every time (oh boy do i pay). 3. if i and a buddy go out to shoot my guns i may ask if they wouldn’t mind picking up a box of X brand before we meet up. 3. most of my friends have guns and BYOA is in effect. 4. most real friends understand they just shot up $20.00 in ammo and will force you to take money or bring you a gift of the same box next time. take offshore fishing. 200.00 in gas 50.00 in bate 30.00 in lost or damaged tackle. A good buddy understands all this and will fork over some money. i say no you don't have to pay to go fishing and it's rude to accept the money so we play the little "take the money game". i remember once we took a guy out and we were getting ready to fill the boat up with gas and he stuck his card in the machine saying "i will get the gas". he turned pale when he realized the pump shut off at $100.00 and we had only filled 1/2 of the tank. |
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I definitely agree with first timers. I have no probs supplying some ammo for that. And especially because you can use cheap ammo for those sorts of occasions. However my friends are all far from first timers, but just once-in-a-while shooters. I always feel a little awkward asking for them to pick up ammo, because I reload most of mine. So what would cost them maybe $15 for a box of decent .270, I could reload at home for $7, so it's a little wasteful. Many of them also don't understand that the ammo I reload is far superior to the $10 box of crap from Wal-Mart, so it adds a different dimension there too. Rimfire on the other hand, this system works. A delicate situation indeed. Sometimes I feel like I'm just being stingy, but I have things to pay for just like all my friends. It's not that I'm going crazy about the subject, but I just feel like I've had a bad run of luck when it comes to people being considerate. I was just curious how other people feel about this. Gundraw Edited to add: Another thought is that I am in college as are most of my friends. This equates to most not being very financially stable. Like last time I went trap shooting with a buddy. I told him to bring his own shells. Well, he ended up with about a box and a half from his dad's house, probably because he didn't have the spare cash to run get some. What did I turn up with, about 2 cases(I HATE running out of ammo, so i bring plenty..for me). SO, naturally, the afternoon went on, his ammo is gone in no time, so what are we going to do, pack up and go home? Of course not, we'll just go ahead and dip into mine, because I have plenty, so now, I have to ASK for ammo compensation. See what I mean. Once again, hard to make that call. |
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With the exception of the newbie situation - where, like y'all, I gladly provide everything - I mostly shoot with other "gun nuts" and we bring our own, share, swap, etc. & it probably all "evens-out" in the end. Heck, my best shooting/hunting buddy is my closest neighbor & we borrow ammo like most neighbors borrow sugar & flour. [:)] If fact, he & I are meeting up after work this afternoon to make some final decisions about our range we are building together in one of the places where some of our property meets. We've shared our informal ranges (my pistol range & his rifle range) ever since I moved there, but now we are going in together to "do it right." [:D] |
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If he's new to shooting he just may not know any better, next time just tell him that you're glad he's interested and you are happy to go out shooting with him but that you expect him to help pay for the cost of the ammo he shoots up, I would guess he'll probably be embarrassed as hell and upset that you did not mention it sooner. You may also have to tell him that he should look into getting ammo at Ammoman.com or one of those type places for .223. I have never run into this problem. The guys I shoot with are mostly off the board and they bring their own ammo. You know now that you mention it, my range is basically a sight in once a year type place, but I almost always offer to let the hunters (I hunt too but you know what I mean) rip off a magazine or two through my AR/AK etc, most of those guys never get a chance to shoot that stuff and I think it's good that they see what they are. I think EVERYONE of those guys, most of whom I don't even know, has offered me money or some of the ammo they have for whatever they are shooting and these are mostly just sight in the slug gun/ bolt gun guys. I never take the money, but I think all of them have offered. |
| my buddy who usually comes with me to the range almost never brings any guns or ammo,the last time he brought a gun he let me shoot a total of 4 rounds, but he always expects to have more than enough from me, out of all the times he has gone with me I have allowed him to shoot more than 1000 rounds of ammo from my guns. dont get me wrong I like the guy, but he just pisses me off sometimes |
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Quoted: I think EVERYONE of those [hunters], most of whom I don't even know, has offered me money. i have noticed the deer hunters shoot $24.00 a box of 20 ammo and it just kills them to see me shooting 100 rounds. That is until i offer them a mag. they are genuinely grateful. the Q&A session runs something like this. you must be rich. me, no. how do you afford it? me, i paid $150.00 for 1000 rounds. wow, i will never shoot up 1000 rounds. me, i would not either at $25.00 a box. Say what kind of rifle do you have and what’s the most you have ever shot? 300 win mag. 30 rounds. but my shoulder hurt like hell! me, hum, why not get a rifle like an AR-15? As you can see it's cheep and fun to shoot. yea but it's an army rifle. me, maybe but it's cheep and fun to shoot and i hunt deer with it. but it's not accurate, me, look at your target. but it shoots too fast and is unsportmanlike. me, i have never fired more than two rounds at a deer with this rifle. but... sometimes i swear i can hear the gears turning in their heads but they never seem to make the purchase. It’s like a bolt action sniper rifle is ok but a carbine is not. |
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I go to the range to be alone, it's like meditation for the soul. I'm a former deputy so I get to use the Sheriff's Dept.'s Range I go @ 7:00am on Saturday's. I have the whole range to myself, the SWAT range, tower, tire house, 100yd, 200yd, & 300yd range all to myself I LOVE IT, MINE,MINE,MINE. This shit about giving ammo or anything away I have shirts I wear that say DON'T ASK ME FOR SHIT ! People who know me know I mean it, and I don't ask others for shit. I'm semi-old, grouchy, & mean just leave me alone:) But I'm still a nice guy.... |
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Ditto on the First Time Rule. If I am inviting a novice - its my invitation thus its my treat. When I ask people over for a BBQ I don't expect them to pay up. As mentioned before most novices don't know what ammo costs. I would have more balanced expectations if they make a 3rd or 4th trip with me (time for them to think about buying their own pea shooter and feeding it). If I go with another shooter then there should be some very rough equity. |
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Just be up front about it. If they are going to be using one of your firearms, ask them how many rounds they want you to bring along for it and then tell them what it will cost. If it is someone that is fairly new (first time is a freebee), I give them an option of shooting the .22 for free, or buying ammo for the "more fun" weapons. Most of my friends have always been up front about asking for money for stuff, after all, true friends can't be offended, well at least they won't hold a grudge for long, heh. |
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I also always pay for ammo when taking someone out the first time, and I never have a problem handing one of my rifles to someone who's never shot that type before (the AR10 is a frequent victim) with a mag full of ammo. However, when going with people who know better, I'm very up-front about it. I'll tell them "you can buy your ammo from [insert local store] or you can buy it from me at my cost, which is $x.xx/100 for this caliber and $y.yy/100 for that caliber." This makes it clear that I expect them to pay for the ammo they use, but that I'm also not trying to rip them off or make them buy overly-expensive ammo. MOST people have had no problem with this and have offered additional money/compensation for shooting my guns, because they also understand that guns wear out. Usually I either refuse or accept a meal or something. A couple of people have been a bit less enthusiastic about paying for their ammo, but I'm not afraid to ask them for it, and always bring a couple of .22LRs if they want to shoot something cheap. I find that being straight-forward about everything is the best policy. -Troy |
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I tend to shoot alone when I am really serious about practice. That way I have no distractions and nobody to have to pay attention to but myself and the tasks at hand. In this situation I have no ammo issues. On the other hand, if I invite friends over to shoot with me, I have several guns and certain ammo for this purpose. I have a cheap kit AR 16" carbine I put together just for the purpose. It gets fed Wolf ammo. Cheap gun, cheap ammo = lots of fun for the prospective shooter. I also keep a Marlin Model 60 .22 semi-auto rifle around with plenty of Federal value packs from Wal-Mart. I also have a used Ruger P-89 9mm I picked up cheap. It usually gets fed Winchester 115 gr value pack ammo from Wal-Mart or Wolf, whatever is available. These are the only guns I will allow others to shoot. There's usually an SKS around too and some Wolf ammo. On the other hand, I don't let anyone mess with my serious use guns. Nobody but me fires my Glock 17, Sig P229, Bushmaster carbine or my Remington 870. Nobody gets any of my M193 or Black Hills ammo either. I don't mean to be a spaz about such things but that's just the way I am. My serious use guns and ammo are not to be messed with and everyone knows not to even ask. LOL. -CH |
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I don't know if this etiquette applies to relatives. I take my prick father to the range with me... after driving 2 hours from MD to NJ (and paying three harsh tolls) to take his dumb ass to the range on Ft. Dix. I also shell out for ammo for ALL of the guns I bring that he shoots (.308, .223, .45, 9mm). He brings his Ruger MKII and a box of shitty ammo he has had for the last two decades. I say he is a mooch. |
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This is a great topic. The core of guys I shoot with aren't ammo moochers. In fact, we pool our resources every few months and do mini group buys for loaded ammo and reloading components. Back when I was in college my ammo used to get mooched all the time. One of my roommates would typically invite a bunch of friends and I would be expected to provide the guns, ammo, and targets. After a while I got sick of it and put a stop to it. Whenever someone offered to pay I typically wouldn't accept it, but it irked me when people expected me to supply them without any thought of compensation. A little bit of acknowledgment goes a long way. |
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What I hear from you guys, it seems my situation is a difference maybe of maturity/manners. Let's face it, most kids in college are not your most well mannered people, maybe a better way of saying it, is they are definitely more laid back. Personally, I'm NOT very laid back about things like this (paying people back, being "even" etc.), so when I do act anal about all this, it comes across as being a dick when you are this age. Not to mention, they ARE my friends, so even though they SHOULD understand, it's hard to present it nicely, especially when you know they might not have the money to support a hobby (addiction in my case [:D]) like this. Which is not really an excuse for ME to pay for it, if I didn't have the money, I wouldn't be shooting, maybe it's a cherity thing[;)]. As I'm sure most of you feel, I like to have fun with buddies shooting guns, and I LIKE to get people at least exposed to guns, because they usually like them. We could all find the obvious good things about exposing the public to how guns ARE good, and not just killing machines. A scenario: I just got my Bushy Varminter a few months ago. Naturally, even my friends who know very little about guns REALLY WANTED to shoot this thing. I mean, it's eye pleasing from any angle. But one of my buddies, who is on his own for the first year and can barely afford beer at this point (but he manages in college [8D] ) so he definitely can't be dishing out bucks to shoot. But like hell I'm gonna turn down one of my best friends down because I'm inherently stingy. I'm sure he'd offer to pay, but I'd feel like an ass. Don't get me wrong, all situations are not like this, in fact, usually not so innocent. But there are just too many things to consider. Whether it's laziness, unthoughtfullness (most common), lack of $$, it's hard to draw the line with your friends. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. However, CJ, you are right, just offering makes a HUGE difference in my attitude. Just my take on the difference when being in college. Gundraw P.S Thanks for all the great responces. Many are a real hoot. I'm still laughing pathfinder [ROFL] |
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I hand it over free usually... but most of the time we're all gun nuts, so there's plenty to shoot. Same goes for clays, or paper targets. If I got 'em lets shoot 'em-- the goal is to leave with as little ammo left as possible (short of my CC pistol which stays loaded after a range session). One of my buddies usually lets me blast with his SKS paratrooper, so I bring the clays. If one of us runs out of shotgun shells, the other usualy has an extra box. The last time we shot, we made some punk kids throw [i]their[/i] clay birds for us to shoot so we'd yank their car outta the snowbank on the way out... that was fun! (though I woulda yanked 'em out anyway) My other friend bought me breakfast last week before we went and practiced with our pistols...he brought his own ammo, but I brought the targets and a shotty with some buckshot for "fun" between strings of "COM-front sight focus-press-Repeat Rapidly" I did have to promise him I'd take him with me when I get my new AR though... I spent about 2 hours today with my father, plinking at old steel buckets and cans set on corral posts out in the desert, we burned about 250-400 rounds of .22LR, 50 .223, and about 50 9mm ... cost, probably around $25 (all my own ammo). Spending quality time with my father just plinking the day away (and working on my tan)... PRICELESS!! |
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I spent about 2 hours today with my father, plinking at old steel buckets and cans set on corral posts out in the desert, we burned about 250-400 rounds of .22LR, 50 .223, and about 50 9mm ... cost, probably around $25 (all my own ammo). Spending quality time with my father just plinking the day away (and working on my tan)... PRICELESS!! Oh yeah... I forgot about the whole father-son bonding thing. I guess between that and the fact that my father has spent a lot more money on my selfish ass over my lifetime should be enough compensation. But on second thought... what has he done for me lately? Prick! Once he starts handing some of his guns over to me we'll start calling it even... considering his sock drawer is loaded with a P-38, Ruger .357 Blackhawk, Ruger .22lr revolver, Ruger MKII, not to mention the .22lr rifle and 30-30. None of which he has shot in well over fifteen years. Of course, as soon as I get my hands on them they're going to the pawn shop so I can sell them and get something worth a shit. No sentimental value... only dollar value. I'll probably keep one of the revolvers... |
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Agree on first time outing etc. too pick up the tab on ammo (other wise is a lot like asking someone over for supper and having them bring the food). Have friends that I shoot their ammo and they shoot mine depending on who has the most that day, so works out in the long run. However, there are always those that only bring a few rounds of ammo, but are more than willing to shoot your ammo, gun etc. in a ten to one trade to their advantage ... so you just factor that into who you offer and who you do not. Most of time shooting full auto now days and like to supply the ammo, as hate to have a $12K piece of metal go pop to save a few nickels (have friends with non-M16's that have done that ...) Thus for the full auto M16A1 only shoot name brand (XM193, IMI - Win or IMI boxed)which was purchased in sealed boxes. Friend of mine went shooting and one of the guy's picked up USGI ammo to shoot, that blew a case head in his M16 ... turns out the friend had gotten reloads in USGI cases ... nearly the same .... NOT! |
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I'm an ammo mooch. I admit it. I can't help it. I'm a victim of societal pressures. I ran out of .45 one day and bought a box at the range. I go to the folks afterwards to drop my empties in the tumbler and when dad hears I actually bought a box of ammo....he laughs at me and calls me an idiot for buying it and not taking more out of the basement the last time! I was stunned. I am now emotionally damaged for the rest of my pitiful existence. There I was, trying to be a good and thoughtful son and not take everything out of the basement and I was told I did the WRONG thing! Well let me tell ya, now, it's not, "Hey pop I grabbed a box of 45.", it's "hey pop, I grabbed a coffee can each of 9mm and .45 and your almost out. I also grabbed a couple bricks of .22 and can of .30 ball." Yessir, I learned my lesson. Oh, that reminds me, he's almost out of loaded shotgun ammo. I need to tell him to buy more. [:D] |
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LOL at 308wood! I had a very similar experience a couple months ago. I brought my AR-180B out to the local dirt pit, where it turned out that this hunter fellow with a muzzle-loader had beaten me to the only table. I walked on over and set my stuff down and decided to watch. (I've never seen much about muzzle-loaders, never shot one myself.) Eventually, we held a conversation a bit like yours that ended with him looking over my rifle and me looking over his muzzle-loader. He later left with a thanks and a handshake. A good experience over all. [:)] As far as moochers go: Yeah I have that problem too. Especially since I'm about the only guy I know around here who owns black rifles. Last Tuesday I went out with some friends to go shooting, and I got this guy who wanted a turn on my AR-180B. Well, as soon as he got his hands on it, he got so excited that he just dumped the mag as fast as he could. By the time he'd dumped his second mag, I had to tap him on the shoulder and tell him to slow down a bit, as he had smoke pouring through the handguards and had already started looking around for another loaded mag… [heavy] [shock] Oh well, it [i]was[/i] his first time with a black rifle. [:D] Between him and the other non-EBR folks there, I went through 250 rounds that day. Not too bad, but someone could have at least offered to pick up some of the ammo... |
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Me am my buddies mooch off of each other. We're young, money comes, money goes. Just the way it is. I had a friend pay for a box of 223 to shoot through my AR for his first time. He didn't have a problem with it. He paid me back the next week. I would have paid, but it was my first week with the new rifle and I had already spent almost all of my cash! But it is about time to have the guys over for some shooting again, especially after I just got the ACOG put on top of my AR. They won't pay for ammo this time because I have quite a bit of money right now. In the summer, my close friend and I shoot 22s many afternoons. I don't make him pay for ammo everytime, but sometimes after 3-4 sessions, I make him buy a couple thousand rounds. It all works out in the end is the way I play it. |
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Any first time shooter, I buy. And I mean, "buy." I reload for my own shooting, but don't normally let anyone else shoot my reloads. Unless, of course, they helped me load them. I'm a meticulous reloader and have never had any problems with my "production" reloads. Just the same... I always bring ammo for my Dad to shoot. Anything I can do to get him out plinking and spend some time with him. Well, not only is he my Dad, but he DID pass along his CMP Garand to me. And his 1911, circa 1918. And taught me to shoot. And took me out shooting when I was young. And he helped tool up and stock my reloading bench.(You get the idea.) I'm usually out at the range by myself. Maybe one in every ten trips I have someone else along. Come to think of it, I should probably invite someone else more often, to help chase brass! |
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Selling fathers guns to buy new and better guns? What's wrong with that? Considering what he paid for them back in the day, they have become a good investment. Besides, they're not my kind of guns... he likes a lot of western style... I like Johnny Go Fast modern style. If I'm a prick because of the whole "sentimental" value of his guns to me... I'm keeping one for that reason. The one I enjoyed shooting with him. I never shot about half of them anyway. He has his good points and his bad points. Right now his bad points are the dominant ones. Like not calling to see how his first grandson is doing. |
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Everyone I shoot with is part of ar-15. We all have excess ammo. We are all pretty generous with it too. A few of the generous guys let me and others play with class 3 weapons. I always shoot my own ammo, and often give my ammo to other newbies to shoot the class 3's (after getting the owners permission first). Some folks come to the shoots we have with ammo, some are a little down on their luck at the time with funds. They (the afrkommers) can always shoot my ammo. If I can drop $100 at a titty bar, I can afford $100 in ammo at a big gathering for others less fortunate than I to shoot. At the last shoot, some 15 or 16 yo's got to shoot Frisco's UZI. First time with a class 3. The cost of ammo I provided was more than worth it to see their smiles. Thanks again Frisco for your generosity with the toys. TXL |
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