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Posted: 11/25/2003 7:21:47 AM EDT
1-shot killer
This 5.56mm round has all the stopping power you need — but you can’t use it. Here’s why:

By John G. Roos
Special to the Times
Ben Thomas and three colleagues were driving north out of Baghdad in an SUV on a clear mid-September morning, headed down a dirt road into a rural village, when gunmen in several surrounding buildings opened fire on them.
In a brief but intense firefight, Thomas hit one of the attackers with a single shot from his M4 carbine at a distance he estimates was 100 to 110 yards.
He hit the man in the buttocks, a wound that typically is not fatal. But this round appeared to kill the assailant instantly.
“It entered his butt and completely destroyed everything in the lower left section of his stomach ... everything was torn apart,” Thomas said.
Thomas, a security consultant with a private company contracted by the government, recorded the first known enemy kill using a new — and controversial — bullet.
The bullet is so controversial that if Thomas, a former SEAL, had been on active duty, he would have been court-martialed for using it. The ammunition is “nonstandard” and hasn’t passed the military’s approval process.
“The way I explain what happened to people who weren’t there is … this stuff was like hitting somebody with a miniature explosive round,” he said, even though the ammo does not have an explosive tip. “Nobody believed that this guy died from a butt shot.”
The bullet Thomas fired was an armor-piercing, limited-penetration round manufactured by RBCD of San Antonio.
A new process
APLP ammo is manufactured using a so-called “blended-metal” process, said Stan Bulmer, president of sales and manufacturing for Le Mas Ltd. of Little Rock, Ark. Le Mas is the distributor of RBCD ammo.
Various bullet types made by RBCD are designed for different effects, Bulmer said.
The frangible APLP ammo will bore through steel and other hard targets but will not pass through a human torso, an eight-inch-thick block of artist’s clay or even several layers of drywall. Instead of passing through a body, it shatters, creating “untreatable wounds.”
Le Mas gave Thomas a small number of APLP rounds after he contacted the company.
After driving off their attackers, Thomas and his colleagues quickly searched the downed enemy fighter for items of intelligence value. They also took time to examine the wound.
“There’s absolutely no comparison, whatever, none,” to other wounds he has seen from 5.56mm ammo, Thomas said in a telephone interview while on home leave in Florida.
He said he feels qualified to assess a bullet’s effects, having trained as a special-operations medic and having shot people with various types of ammo, including the standard-issue green tip and the Black Hills Mk 262, favored by spec-ops troops.
Thomas was the only member of the four-man group who had RBCD ammo. He said that after the group returned to base, they and other members of his group snatched up the remaining rounds.
“They were fighting over it,” he said. “At the end of the day, each of us took five rounds. That’s all we had left.”
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:59:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 9:10:04 AM EDT by IronBalaclava]
Their's No information on the RBCD site, but apparently it was made for the State Department. It's a frangible APLP(Armored Piercing Limited Penetration round). No info on the weight/grains. But check out this Sequence shot of the 5.56 APLP flying through a slab of meat at 80 Degrees F. That's some DAMN nasty tissue damage! It also contains info on the Blended Metal Technology. [url]http://www.lemasltd.com/1Shot/FactorFiction.htm[/url] Edited to add:Actually, [url]www.lemasltd.com[/url] is the distributor. They have a few different calibers with no prices, An LEO/Gov't only policy, and an order form?
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 9:02:30 AM EDT
Oh Boy. Here we go!
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:50:23 AM EDT
Moved to the ammo forum from AR discussions. Carry on.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 1:05:26 PM EDT
I can't really seem to find any info regarding specifications, pictures, internal or external ballistics of the round(specifically 5.56). Anyone?
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 1:09:10 PM EDT
Here's the rest of the story from Army Times: Last year’s defense budget included $1.05 million for testing blended-metal bullets, Bulmer said. Fourteen months into the 24-month period during which those research and development-testing funds must be spent, the military has not purchased a single bullet from Le Mas. Publicly, at least, military officials say RBCD ammo is no more effective than other types now in use and, under certain conditions, doesn’t even perform as well. Those conclusions are derived from a series of tests conducted a few years ago in which RBCD ammo’s effects were observed in ballistic gelatin, the standard means for testing bullets. Naval Reserve Lt. Cmdr. Gary Roberts, a recognized ballistics expert and member of the International Wound Ballistics Association, conducted the gelatin tests in March 2002. According to his findings, “Claims that RBCD bullet terminal performance can vary depending on target thickness, size or mass were not shown to have merit, as bullet performance remained consistent irrespective of gelatin block size.” Roberts found that in gelatin, a 9mm, 60-grain slug exhibited “tissue damage comparable to that of other nonexpanding 9mm bullets and is less than that of standard 9mm [jacketed hollow point] designs, since the RBCD bullet does not create as much tissue damage due to its smaller recovered diameter.” A .45-caliber bullet “offered average terminal performance in bare and denim-clad gelatin, similar to that noted with the 9mm bullet. ... The RBCD bullets do not appear to be a true frangible design, as significant mass is retained after striking a target.” Not surprisingly, Roberts’ assessment remains a major impediment to getting RBCD ammo into military hands. Considering his standing in the ballistics community, his findings are accepted as gospel by many influential members of the special-operations community. But Bulmer insists that tests in ballistic gelatin fail to demonstrate RBCD ammo’s actual performance because the gelatin is chilled to 36 degrees. Their bullets seem to shatter most effectively only when they strike warmer targets, such as live tissue. Bulmer said tests using live animals clearly would show its effects. Despite his appeals for such testing, and the funds set aside by Congress to conduct new tests, the military refuses. Bulmer said authority to spend the testing funds initially went to U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., which delegated testing responsibility to the Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, N.C. Queries to the command confirmed that it was aware of the testing requirement but had not decided when, or if, the tests will be conducted. Bill Skipper, president and CEO of the American Business Development Group, is a lobbyist representing Le Mas on Capitol Hill. “When I heard of the ballistic characteristics of this ammo, as a retired military officer, I realized it has to stay in the good guys’ hands,” he said, adding that SOCom’s reluctance to test it is “irresponsible.” “This is an issue of national security,” he said. Some supporters of RBCD ammunition suggest SOCom officials may be reluctant to test the ammo because it threatens “in-house” weapons and ammunition programs underway at the command. Special-operations forces long have sought a more potent standard round than the 5.56mm, which lacks the punch needed during the long-distance engagements that frequently occur in Afghanistan and Iraq. In response, SOCom is working with weapons and ammunition manufacturers to develop a new round and new upper receivers for M4 and M16 rifles. The command apparently has narrowed its search to a 6.8-by-43mm round. Indication of industries’ involvement in this effort was seen in October during the annual Association of the U.S. Army exhibition in Washington. If Le Mas’ 5.56mm APLP round delivers the performance SOCom is seeking in the new 6.8mm ammo — and Bulmer insists it does — the rationale and the potentially lucrative contracts for producing a new ammo type and modifying thousands of weapons used by special-operations forces would disappear. Thomas said he isn’t familiar with the reasons that might keep RBCD ammo from getting a realistic test within the military. “The politics, that’s above my pay grade,” he said. “All I really care about is that I have the best-performing weapon, optics, communications, medical equipment, etc. I’m taking Le Mas ammo with me when I return to Iraq, and I’ve already promised lots of this ammo to my buddies who were there that day and to their friends.” When military officials in the United States got wind that Thomas had used the round, he quickly found himself in the midst of an online debate in which an unnamed officer, who mistakenly assumed Thomas was in the service, threatened him with a court martial for using the nonstandard ammo. Although Thomas was impressed by RBCD ammo’s performance, he feels it should not be the standard ammunition issued to all U.S. forces. “The first thing I say when I talk to people about Le Mas’ ammo is, make sure that 22-year-old infantrymen don’t get a hold of this, because if they have an accident ... if they have a negligent discharge, that person is dead. It doesn’t matter how much body armor you have on. “This is purely for putting into bad guys. For general inventory, absolutely not. For special operations, I wouldn’t carry anything else.” A video clip on RBCD ammo that was shot at the annual Armed Forces Journal Shootout at Blackwater is online at www.armedforcesjournal.com/bullets. John G. Roos is editor of Armed Forces Journal. You can read the whole story at Armytimes.com. The paper version has pictures of the round. Just looks like a gray/silver FMJ. Ogive is different that M855 or M193.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 2:27:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 2:34:36 PM EDT by Austrian]
RBCD is very good at getting press. Their product is considerably less good. My sister went back and forth, along with many others including Dr. Fackler and Dr. Gary Roberts, with Stan Bulmer. In the exchanges I've seen it seems clear that Bulmer doesn't understand ballistics at all. There is also no evidence that the State Department ever used the rounds or ordered them at all. I talked to a DSS officer who is involved with supply and equipment selection about it once and he had no idea what I was talking about. (As opposed to the usual: "No comment.") No attempts to conduct real experiments on the round have been permitted with the exception of the gel tests described, which were a failure for the rounds. Instead they just want to shoot deli meat with it and show videos of the results without any other rounds to compare against. Convenient that the round only does its magic in mediums with a higher temp than gel will exist at for long. RBCD claims they have discovered what amounts to life on Mars. A totally unexplained behavior of ballistic motion and terminal effect and one that seems to defy the laws of physics as we know them. Despite this, they refuse to provide anyone with credentials access to the rounds for testing and have, in fact, removed rounds from labs where they were to be tested, apparently to avoid having them tested. As my sister quipped: "Do the math."
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 3:42:27 PM EDT
This has been thrown around several times, each with NO proof, whatsoever, that RBCD's ammo does what it claims. Sure, they show video's and photos, but they won't let anybody else test the ammo...at least not since Dr. Roberts shot some and gave it a bad review. Another discussion with links: [url]http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000563.html[/url]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 4:16:37 PM EDT
And so I ask where are the pictures of the blown apart butt?
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:23:27 PM EDT
Forget the butt!!!! Lets get some of this ammo and test it against m193, m855 and Open Tips, so as to be out of doubt.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:37:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By robertmegar: Forget the butt!!!! Lets get some of this ammo and test it against m193, m855 and Open Tips, so as to be out of doubt.
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No ammunition will be forthcoming. This company is selling smoke to potential investors. Once the money rolls in they will disappear. Typical con-job.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:24:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 8:25:12 PM EDT by Wingman26]
The photo's they have are very impressive, but their claims defy logic, this just seems to be [red]"Too good to be true"[/red].
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:59:59 PM EDT
This is the Army Times on-line response page -- http://www.militarycity.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1-292925-2426405 This is the orginal thread at Lightfighter.com -- http://lightfighter.net/6/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=7336015661&f=9046084761&m=9846055883&p=4 Two earlier AR15.com threads: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=172274&page=1 http://www.ar15.com./forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=149017&page=3
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 9:08:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 9:11:11 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
"You know that there M193 out of the early 1 in 14 twist M16 used blow them VC's arms CLEAN off..." There are no magic bullets, only some decent ones, and they ALL depend on placement.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:02:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By robertmegar: Forget the butt!!!! Lets get some of this ammo and test it against m193, m855 and Open Tips, so as to be out of doubt.
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Apparently Gary Roberts already tested the ammo. If so, it would be interesting to ask him if he did test it at 36 degrees? I'm not sure what this means in totality, but if we want to dismantle this story, piece by piece, we need to start at the beginning. So, first we need to dispute Bulmer's claim of the gelatin being at 36 degrees. I agree with Lumpy, there are no magic bullets, but the advances in bullet design in the last 15 years has been incredible. So why couldn't this bullet work? No offense to Doc Roberts (I respect his work), but he does have a vested interest in other projects and the NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome is alive and well in Washington/military. The closer you get to the core of a project, the more influence the project has on the decisions of the folks involved...remember NASA?, remember the last shuttle flight? If any of you have been involved in a court case where expert witness's are called, well, both sides have experts and they're 180 degrees apart in their testimonies...remember DNA?, remember OJ? True evaluations of any product are best done by third party evaluators with the proper credentials and no financial, political or future benefits (rank, promotions, etc.) All commercial evaluations, of test marketed products, are tested by end users, in black and white packages,with no manufacturers labels, with the result being 'no bias' in the conclusion. It will be interesting to see this story unfold and to be able to find the truth in this matter. In fact, if it is true, it could give new life to the 5.56 round and may be the death of a number of projects currently in progress. Just some thoughts to ponder....
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:44:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2003 3:12:39 AM EDT by Tweak]
Originally Posted By Delta6: If so, it would be interesting to ask him if he did test it at 36 degrees?
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From [url=http://lightfighter.net/6/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=7336015661&f=9046084761&m=9846055883&p=3]Lightfighter[/url] DocGKR wrote
http://www.AR15.com./forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=169612
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Mr. Dodson wrote: "I've inquired with Duncan MacPherson about Stan Bulmer's absurd claim that body heat needed to make his bullets "deploy." MacPherson indicated that passing your finger through a candle flame, which is a few hundred degrees hotter than "body heat," without getting burned produces greater thermal effect on your finger than the 60-degree temperature difference between 39-degree ordnance gelatin and "body heat" has on a penetrating bullet. He showed to me that the time interval in which your finger is exposed to the heat of the candle flame is about 200 times longer (0.1 second) compared to a bullet penetrating 6-inches into ordnance gelatin (or soft tissue at "body temperature") at 1000 fps (0.0005 second). Therefore, the claim by Stan Bulmer of LeMas is disproven and false."
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For those of you who are not aware, Mr. MacPherson quite literally wrote the book (MacPherson D: “Bullet Penetration—Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma”. Ballistic Publications; El Segundo, 1994); on the physics of projectile wounds.
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I believe the test was conducted with the blocks at 39 degrees [url=http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm]per the testing protocol[/url]. [added linky]
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 2:55:22 AM EDT
Unless and until this projectile is independently tested the claims are smoke and mirrors. All that's necessary to clear the smoke is for the maker to provide the independent testing data. I'm unaware of any [i]vested interest[/i] Commander Roberts has in any ammunition, he's a researcher of the first order (as is MacPherson, who really is a rocket scientist). One of the principles of scientific research is that the researchers publish their [i]raw data[/i] or provide samples of their devices for independent verification. It ain't true unless it can be proven by others. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 3:43:56 AM EDT
I wonder who this thomas dude " a consultant with a private company" is and how did he get this secret squirrel ammo and get enough familiarity with it to trust his and his teamates life to it. I would guess that either he has some connection to le mas or he's one of those idiots that will try anything new in dangerous situations. Either of which would be sufficient to discount his input. another reason to discount him is his assertion that this ammo is too dangerous for the average grunt to use and that it should be reserved for SF. Hey Thomas! better take those grenades away while you're at it they can be pretty dangerous too. Flies are buzzing around this pile.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 4:46:28 AM EDT
The more I think about their claims, the more it stinks. Kind of goes against physics and enters the magic bullet arena.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 4:57:50 AM EDT
The video footage I saw in the History Channel documentary showed those bullets being shot into chunks of meat, with a very impressive explosion-like effect. Impressive. Right. The second I saw that I said to my wife that it didn't look any different than my "experiments" shooting similar-sized chunks of spoiled meat with 75gr OTM bullets, SS109, or 60 gr V-Max bullets. Maybe those bullets are the Second Coming, or maybe they are smoke and mirrors. In any event, I hope they use some demonstration other than what you can already do with off-the-shelf ammo.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 5:01:30 AM EDT
Snake oil, pure and refined.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 5:20:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DocGKR: This is the Army Times on-line response page -- [url]http://www.militarycity.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1-292925-2426405[/url] This is the orginal thread at Lightfighter.com -- [url]http://lightfighter.net/6/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=7336015661&f=9046084761&m=9846055883&p=4[/url] Two earlier AR15.com threads: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=172274&page=1[/url] [url]http://www.ar15.com./forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=149017&page=3[/url]
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Links made hot.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 5:31:43 AM EDT
Excellent thread. ARFCOM rocks. The ammount of knowledge on this board is incredible to me, at times. Just browsing here has saved me a ton of money and has made me much more aware of the AR15 weapon system and ammunition. And that makes me a better person. And, therefore, chicks dig me. And, I'm sticking with my 77 grain NATO rounds, when they arrive. .
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 8:12:08 AM EDT
Delta6, In the last several years I have been involved with testing a wide variety of items including 5.56 mm, 6 mm, 6.5 mm, 6.8 mm, 7 mm, 7.62 x 39 mm, 7.62 x 51 mm, 7.62 x 54 mm, 7.62 x 63 mm, .338, .45-70, 12 ga, .380 ACP, .38 Sp, 9mm, 357 Sig, .40 S&W, .44 Mag, .45 ACP, as well as a few others. Many of the items we have tested have been adopted by various agencies and units, others have not. Either way, it does not effect me--I report accurate results and the end-users get to decide what to do with that information. I am not in the employee of any ammunition or firearm's manufacturer, nor will I receive any financial benefits from any organization or agency adopting any particular weapon system or ammunition. Exactly what "vested" interest do I have?
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 10:25:22 AM EDT
I was thinking smoke and "magic Bullet" as well. However, it would at least be interesting if someone on the board(independant third party) did aquire some of this APLP and ran some of their own tests versus M193/M855 and other load such as the BH SMK loads.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 10:35:03 AM EDT
I've just spent an incredible amount of time that I really don't have reading all the threads about this, including the Lightfighter thread, and I think I'm up to speed. Let me just sum up: 1) APLP ammo doesn't do well in ballistic gelatin... 2)...but that's because ballistic gelatin is too cold for it to do it's stuff... 3)...but ballistic gelatin is the "gold standard" for such testing, so the mainstream scientific community doesn't accept APLP as anything remarkable. Okay so far? 4) Some other type of testing, such as shooting 100-200 pound hogs under controlled conditions with proper necropsy is necessary to determine if APLP is really all it's cracked up to be, but... 5) ...BMT either won't do this kind of testing, won't cooperate with others who want to do it, or won't release the results of said testing, and 6) until some type of controlled, quantifiable, scientific testing is performed, the APLP's effectiveness will be proven by nothing more than anecdotal evidence and destruction of deli meats. Does this sum it up pretty well?
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 10:38:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By IronBalaclava: I was thinking smoke and "magic Bullet" as well. However, it would at least be interesting if someone on the board(independant third party) did aquire some of this APLP and ran some of their own tests versus M193/M855 and other load such as the BH SMK loads.
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Tatjana and I offered to do just that. We have the equipment, the knowledge, the experience and we do it all as a hobby. Nobody pays us anything, so we have no cares about whether it works or fails. We just want to find the best gear for ourselves. They ignored our offer...repeatedly. If this stuff really works (I have serious doubts), then I will be the first to apologize. About the temperature thing...Sure, the gelatin is at 36 degrees. So what? They're saying that the bullet must be heated to work? Well, let's see...how much heat do you think the bullet gains from barrel friction? From air friction? From 55k PSI gases? I know for a fact that it is hot enough to burn the gelatin that it impacts. I often find fragments that have been hot enough to discolor the gelatin around them...which means they were HOT.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 10:54:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DocGKR: Exactly what "vested" interest do I have?
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I think it would be incorrect to say you have any vested interest. But it would be equally incorrect to say you are simply a reporter of fact, with no opinion of what makes a certain load perform well, and other perform poorly. I tent to agree with your theories on wound ballistics, but there are many others who disagree with us. To say you are unbiased is to say Evan Marshall is unbiased.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 11:32:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha: About the temperature thing...Sure, the gelatin is at 36 degrees. So what? They're saying that the bullet must be heated to work? Well, let's see...how much heat do you think the bullet gains from barrel friction? From air friction? From 55k PSI gases? I know for a fact that it is hot enough to burn the gelatin that it impacts. I often find fragments that have been hot enough to discolor the gelatin around them...which means they were HOT.
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I don't think they're saying the bullet has to be heated for it to work, I think they're making the just-as-remarkable claim that the target medium has to be a specific temperature for the bullet to work. As if the bullet has a teeny tiny little thermometer in the tip. ("Nope, too cold. I'm not fragmenting in [i]that[/i] stuff. Heat up the pot roast a little, then we'll talk.")
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 3:35:40 PM EDT
RCBS and HK must be using the same advertising consultant. The XM8/G36 is also a smoke and mirrors project.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 5:06:57 PM EDT
Not to burst the bubble here... but this stuff wouldn't be available to the civilian market anyway... right? For our troops, nothing but the finest... of course. But think for a moment what bullets have been made of for hundereds of years.... LEAD. There are many other materials that could be used... but they are not, untill it's forced, ala steel/bismuth/tungsten-iron birdshot etc... Just saying technology and science are moving faster and faster these days... these folks just MIGHT be on the cutting edge... And it might be smoke and mirrors, as everyone says. "dont count your chickens before they hatch" seems to apply, from both sides, here.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 5:52:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2003 5:53:29 PM EDT by Noname]
Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Originally Posted By IronBalaclava: I was thinking smoke and "magic Bullet" as well. However, it would at least be interesting if someone on the board(independant third party) did aquire some of this APLP and ran some of their own tests versus M193/M855 and other load such as the BH SMK loads.
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[red]Tatjana and I offered to do just that. We have the equipment, the knowledge, the experience and we do it all as a hobby. Nobody pays us anything, so we have no cares about whether it works or fails. We just want to find the best gear for ourselves. They ignored our offer...repeatedly.[/red] If this stuff really works (I have serious doubts), then I will be the first to apologize. About the temperature thing...Sure, the gelatin is at 36 degrees. So what? They're saying that the bullet must be heated to work? Well, let's see...how much heat do you think the bullet gains from barrel friction? From air friction? From 55k PSI gases? I know for a fact that it is hot enough to burn the gelatin that it impacts. I often find fragments that have been hot enough to discolor the gelatin around them...which means they were HOT.
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So I take it they would not provide/sell you any ammo at all?
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 6:40:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WesDesRat: Not to burst the bubble here... but this stuff wouldn't be available to the civilian market anyway... right? For our troops, nothing but the finest... of course. But think for a moment what bullets have been made of for hundereds of years.... LEAD. There are many other materials that could be used... but they are not, untill it's forced, ala steel/bismuth/tungsten-iron birdshot etc... Just saying technology and science are moving faster and faster these days... these folks just MIGHT be on the cutting edge... And it might be smoke and mirrors, as everyone says. "dont count your chickens before they hatch" seems to apply, from both sides, here.
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I see it at the WAC gun shows all the time. The dealer usually has a video setup showing clay blocks being blasted away (all scientific like, yeah right). I think the stuff goes for a buck a round. This shyte is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Look at it this way, are you going to risk your or your loved one’s life on this stuff. Hell no! I’ll use what I know will work, thank you very much. This stuff will remain as snake oil until the manufacture steps up and performs industry acceptable tests. MM
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 7:41:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2003 7:44:15 PM EDT by brouhaha]
Originally Posted By Minuteman: I see it at the WAC gun shows all the time. The dealer usually has a video setup showing clay blocks being blasted away (all scientific like, yeah right). I think the stuff goes for a buck a round. This shyte is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Look at it this way, are you going to risk your or your loved one’s life on this stuff. Hell no! I’ll use what I know will work, thank you very much. This stuff will remain as snake oil until the manufacture steps up and performs industry acceptable tests. MM
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That's not the same ammo that is being discussed here. The ammo you see at gunshows is their "Gumby killer", as I like to call it. Halfway down this page, I discuss just that: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=149017&page=3[/url] And NoName, our requests for samples were ignored.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 7:51:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 8:57:40 PM EDT
I have no experiance shooting Gelatin. I was under the impression that ordnace gelatin was calibrated, stored at a certain temp, and kept in a certain temp range during testing? Does a Block of gelatin at near freezing offer the same resistance to a bullet as a block of gelatin at say desert temps? Ive noticed that often items I take out of my refrigerator are firmer/stiffer than if left out on the kitchen counter all day. Make me wonder if Ballistic gel has the same traits?
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 9:22:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: Ive noticed that often items I take out of my refrigerator are firmer/stiffer than if left out on the kitchen counter all day.
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For reals? [shock]
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 9:35:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 7:45:07 AM EDT
Completely disregarding the apparent target temperature sensing capability of the rounds in question, the article is misleading regarding results of the shot placement; The description of the wound results suggests a Pelvis / Thigh joint hit which is second only to a direct Central Nervous System hit in its immediate disabling effect. The Pelvic region provides structural support for the entire body and houses major arteries as well. The pelvic bone mass is ideal for causing bullet fragmentation as well as secondary bone fragmentation into the lower abdomen area – especially at 100 yards. In short – the recipient [i]immediately[/i] stops locomotion and is likely hemorrhaging arterial blood. There is nothing surprising to me in the results of the shot – regardless of the bullet used.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 8:07:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By AR15fan: Does a Block of gelatin at near freezing offer the same resistance to a bullet as a block of gelatin at say desert temps?
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No, it would melt at desert temps, but note carefully that your body does not. Gelatin is used at the temperature specified because that is the temperature that *gelatin* needs to be to simulate flesh properly...
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So the only issue is did Doc test the RCBS ammo with the Gel at the right temp or not? Right temp, valid test. Too warm or too cold, invalid test.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 1:11:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2003 1:12:17 PM EDT by CJan_NH]
I'm surprised Stan Bulmer (BMT) hasn't showed up yet to insult Doctor Roberts and attack his credibility. Perhaps Bulmer is already here, simply with a different moniker. Can the mods see IPs? Wouldn't that be a hoot [:)]
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 2:11:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 8:05:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CJan_NH: Can the mods see IPs? Wouldn't that be a hoot [:)]
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I think only staph can see IPs, mods cannot.
Link Posted: 11/28/2003 7:14:30 PM EDT
Okay, so let me get this straight. You can't buy it, they won't let anyone have any for evaluation, but a Former SEAL gets his hands on some to take to Iraq? Sounds like the Chewbacca defense. It does not make sense. Hey Brou, you're deploying to Iraq, aren't you?
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