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Posted: 11/17/2003 3:28:41 PM EDT
Its a shame i cant use BH nato 77gr because i want to stock pile a little,and consolidate my ammo to work with both 1/9 and 1/7 barrels.I have both.I understand the economics that resulted in selecting the 77 over the more popular 75,which has the greater possibility of working with 1/9's,so i'm down to hornady 75gr tap for about $550.00 per 500 ,or BH's blue box version 75gr match open tip at $178.00 per 500.I'm thinking the TAP at aprox 2616fps from a 16" bushy with 1/9 as advertised might have the fps edge over the listed 2750fps from BH, which i suspect is from a 20" barrel ending up slower from a 16 then TAP.Which one?
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 4:31:16 PM EDT
How far away do you think your "defensive" targets are going to be? Standard M193 Ball works in almost all situations I can think of for this scenario. -- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 5:06:27 PM EDT
Chuck i agree to a point,but i have always thought bigger is better when its a 22.Just one opinion.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 6:02:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2003 6:03:17 PM EDT by DevL]
Whoa lets take a step back. First of all the 77 grain Nosler will stabilse better than the 75 grain Hornady because its shorter. Second you can get 3D reloaded 75 grain Hornady for $255 for 1000. Both TAP and Black Hills use the same powder charge but TAP is all cannelured while Black Hills (as of 2 weeks ago when the President of the company sent me replacement ammo) is not cannelured in the 75 grain variety. BC of the 77 Nosler is .340 and BC of the 75 Hornady is .395 so the Nosler has a lot more drop. Then again its loaded to NATO pressure which makes up for that. Oh yes the 77 grain Nosler will cause more tissue damage at ALL ranges than the M193.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 8:16:32 PM EDT
use a 30 cal and don't worry about it.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:42:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By colt100: use a 30 cal and don't worry about it.
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Brilliant idea! Now which 30 cal round fits in his 1/9 and 1/7 twist barrels?
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 6:02:49 PM EDT
devl, Isn't that weird? They told me it does have a cannelure on it!!!! Black Hills that is. I didn't know the Hornady TAP was cannelured. I was at Gander mountain tonight and they carry a variety of blue box. I looked at all the ones that were supposed to be cannelured. The 52 match was, the 55 psp was, the 55 fmj was, but they had some 50 grain vmax and I couldn't see a cannelure on it. I wonder if what's his name is right and it's a new thing and they have tons of one's out there that don't. It's confusing to me. I wish I could get a straight story. But maybe there isn't really one. Are you guys receiving your 77 nato's yet? I didn't dare go into that thread it's got so many pages.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 6:06:35 PM EDT
Girard, my two cents about the velocity is that I've read many articles where it shows the black hills a tad hotter than hornady. Regardless of what they say it is. I think black hills uses the underpromise, overdeliver type thinking where everyone else puts their best case scenario. That's what I think. I could be wrong but that's what I think from what I've read. P.S. I think colt100 needs the ammo oracle.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 6:23:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:04:20 PM EDT
uh, buy a .30 cal rifle. I know that a .30 round will not fit in an ar. Oh, and I've read the orical. I personally feel that the .30 caliber round is a far better defensive/battle round than the .223/5.56. That is, of course, if your looking for a good round for defence. I also believe that the ar is good for short ranges shooting the m196.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 2:58:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By DevL: First of all the 77 grain Nosler will stabilse better than the 75 grain Hornady because its shorter.
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There's virtually no difference in length, but the 77gr stuff is 100 fps slower, so actually, it is generally worse than the 75gr loads in a 1:9. -Troy
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Brouhaha has pulled bullets he showed me one time at his house and there was a noticable difference in the 75 and 77 bullets. I already knew there was a differnce but it was more in person than I thought it would be, it was obvious with the naked eye. I know the 75 was redsigned to be shorter so perhaps is very close now. As far as the 77 being 100 fps slower than the 75 I dont see how that is possible. If loaded to the same level the chrono has them running the same. I have seen the chrono on both 75 and 77 NATO presure and they were within 10 or so fps. I know the 77 has inferior BC but thats a whole differnt story.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:46:20 AM EDT
Actually the BC is about the same now @ .340 each, since Hornady redesigned the bullet. Velocity will be about the same when loaded to the same level.. my understanding is that BH underloads the 77gr compared to the 75gr and hence the 100fps difference. The 75gr was shortened and is almost the same size as the 77gr now.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:51:40 AM EDT
So after all this clarification, which is probably better for defensive use in a 1 in 9 barrel? :)
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:05:29 AM EDT
COLT100, You may be right about the .30 being better. I'm not trying to argue with you. I did read an article in SOF magazine about the spr 5.56 some of the snipers are using now. Using the 77 grain nato round they have confirmed kills out to 600 meters in afghanastan. That's pretty darn good. If you need more than that, great. I like the .308 too. I like the softer kick of the ar and I don't know if you're really giving up that much in performance. To each his own.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:26:08 PM EDT
If you can in fact hit the target (head) reliably at 600 yds it likely doesn't matter. If you're target is the COM at 600 yds, your probably better off with a .30, then again it is a little dificult to consider a 600 yard shot a "defensive" shot. Unless there are so many coming in you need to start there to get them all before they get to bayonet range.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 7:38:13 AM EDT
All this talk about kills at 600 yards is a bit concerning. Why is that a consideration for a "defense" cartridge? Kind of makes me wonder about closet psychopaths out there. I think any loading you choose in a .223 is going to be very adequate at any legally and morally defensible range, which is probably measured in a few feet. Since your goal should be to stop the threat, with neither a priority nor particular concern in regard to killing versus stopping, it's hard to argue with a low velocity shotgun loading as the best shoulder weapon in such a circumstance.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 2:02:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By elh0102: ...makes me wonder about closet psychopaths out there...
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[ROFL2]
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 2:24:02 PM EDT
One use for the longer range, if you're skilled enough to pull it off, is in the admitted very unlikely scenario of a Red Dawn type situation. You're in the position of trying to snipe at range, and thin the invaders out, without getting too close and getting decisively engaged. Pop one or two at 300-400 yards (600 for the very skilled), and fade. I don't think this kind of scenario is very likely - it's damn unlikely, but not impossible. Say some rogue nation, like N. Korea achieves orbital capability, launches a couple "sattelites", which turn out to be nukes, and EMPs our asses. The Mexicans decide it's time to get back at us, and hordes of people invade North. I know in such a situation, the extra range capability would be useful. Not that I could hit anything reliably beyond 400 yards, but some can. No psycho thinking here, just keeping the options open.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 2:44:55 PM EDT
I only brought up the 600 yards as a point that if the round is adequate to that long of yardage (meters, whatever), to me it's obviously adequate for closer ranges. And I was talking about military personelle deploying the round, not psychopaths. I like learning about killing power because of hunting. Not shooting people. But just in case, it's always good to have a gun handy.
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