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Posted: 9/4/2003 9:04:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 5:21:13 PM EDT
Interesting. Hopefully with tests such as these, folks involved with police entry or those with home defense concerns can see conclusive evidence that will steer them toward the correct tool for the job. Why use a pistol caliber carbine when you have can have the increased lethality of the .223 with no increase danger of overpenetration? It would also have been interesting to see the 12 gauge 00 buckshot rounds included in this test. Slowly but surely, it seems more and more people are seeing the value of the AR carbine and the .223 round in these roles. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 11:52:31 AM EDT
Oly arms has some info also. [url]http://www.olyarms.com/223pen.html[/url]
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 12:38:09 PM EDT
Charging_Handle, This information is not new...the reduced penetration of 5.56 mm compared to handgun calibers and shotguns has been known since the late 1980's. There have been numerous papers discussing the use of .223 for entry for over 10 years. For example: Roberts GK and Bullian ME. "Comparison of the Wound Ballistic Potential of 9mm vs. 5.56mm (.223) Cartridges for Law Enforcement Entry Applications". AFTE Journal. 25(2):142-148, April, 1993.
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 8:29:29 PM EDT
Exactly!! but I am sure you know how many people's jaws drop when they read this or hear it. I believed it off the bat but most people are still of the "it's more potent so it must be more destructive(to everything else)".
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 2:55:52 AM EDT
Doc and Horik, I am fully aware that these tests have been going on for years and I knew the results. That's why I commented. It would seem that as much information as there is readily available that there wouldn't still be so many pistol caliber carbines in use today by both police and civilians. The same can be said for using varmint ammo in AR's. We know that most .223 rounds (including the 75 gr OTM among others) doesn't pose a significant over-penetration danger. Yet I still see so many people using varmint type ammo anyway for defensive purposes. It is common knowledge that this type of round underpenetrates while the best rounds don't overpenetrate. I guess it just amazes me how so many people never pay attention or get the word. The least amount of research would lead one to it. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 5:08:21 AM EDT
i use 30-06 as my home defense :P
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:16:10 AM EDT
Let’s not forget the noise issue.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 9:22:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5pins: Let’s not forget the noise issue.
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And let's not make a mountain out of a mole-hill either. Noise is not a prohibitive factor.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 11:27:54 AM EDT
Sorry for the Mountain construction. I was simply saying that before everyone puts a shorty next to the nightstand they should plan ahead. ///Warning Mountain construction in progress\\ What about muzzle flash?
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 1:56:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: The same can be said for using varmint ammo in AR's. We know that most .223 rounds (including the 75 gr OTM among others) doesn't pose a significant over-penetration danger. Yet I still see so many people using varmint type ammo anyway for defensive purposes. It is common knowledge that this type of round underpenetrates while the best rounds don't overpenetrate. -Charging Handle
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The heavy 75/77 OTM bullets pose a greater risk of overpenetration than M193. You will notice the HP and SP .223 did not exit but the 55 grain FMJ did. The OTM bullets are more lethal after passing through barriers due to the greater retained mass. You cant have your cake and eat it too. I would be hard pressed to reccomend 75/77 grain ammo to someone living in an apartment complex. For field or military use the 75/77 is a no brainer.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 7:16:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL:
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: The same can be said for using varmint ammo in AR's. We know that most .223 rounds (including the 75 gr OTM among others) doesn't pose a significant over-penetration danger. Yet I still see so many people using varmint type ammo anyway for defensive purposes. It is common knowledge that this type of round underpenetrates while the best rounds don't overpenetrate. -Charging Handle
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The heavy 75/77 OTM bullets pose a greater risk of overpenetration than M193. You will notice the HP and SP .223 did not exit but the 55 grain FMJ did. The OTM bullets are more lethal after passing through barriers due to the greater retained mass. You cant have your cake and eat it too. I would be hard pressed to reccomend 75/77 grain ammo to someone living in an apartment complex. For field or military use the 75/77 is a no brainer.
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I tend to agree here. I do so without specific data on the 75/77 because I don't know any gel tests done on those rounds after wall penetration. I would suspect (and this is only speculation) that they ARE however, safer than M855 (cause of the steel 'penetrator') inside. I might try to test 9mm Ranger 127 +p+ and the 77 NATO round against walls and gel to see which is worse. I sort of assume the 9mm will still be worse but I don't know. Remember that few .223 hollow points actually penetrate 12" and that "penetrating" a wall doesn't mean the round necessarily does much afterwards. Also, it depends on your distance from the other side of the wall. Fragmenting .223 rounds fragment and then "cone" out like shotgun patterns. The farther you are from the wall after fragmentation, even in terms of tens of feet, the less tissue damage potential there is.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 3:27:15 AM EDT
I think this really needs to be looked at from two perspectives as aluded to by charging_handle. For the LE entering a residence in a standing-agressor position this has basis for consideration. For the homeowner laying prone in their bed when there is a potentialy deadly intrusion there may be other considerations. In this case it is what you can have available, not what you can go to the safe and position yourself for.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 4:34:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2003 7:07:03 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]
I don't know if this can be of any help, but here are some numbers provided over on tacticalforums.com by DocGKR in reference to various 68/69 gr OTM penetration in bare gel and in gel after passing through an interior wall: [b]Here are some published results fired at 10 feet from a 16” 1/7 twist: Roberts GK: “The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Carbines Compared With 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant.”. Wound Ballistics Review. 3(4):16-28, 1998. Load, Lot #, Vel, Pen cm/in, TC max diam (cm), RD”, RL”, RW gr, % Frag Bare Gel: Black Hills 68 gr JHP, 504041253, 2615, 30.8, 12.1, 9.0, 0.39, 0.23, 31.5, 53.6%, Fed 69 gr JHP-BT Match 223M, 29B-0445, 2646, 37.4, 14.7, 10.0, 0.40, 0.19, 27.5, 60.2% Win 69 gr JHP-BT Match S223M, 31LE61, 2758, 30.1, 11.9, 8.5, 0.36, 0.16, 17.5, 74.6% Through Interior Wall w/Gel Block positioned 10 cm behind wall: Black Hills 68 gr JHP, 504041253, 2939, 27.0, 10.6, 8.0, 0.49, 0.27, 36.8, 45.9% Fed 69 gr JHP-BT Match 223M, 29B-0445, 2637, 30.3, 11.9, 10.0, 0.39, 0.32, 40.2, 41.7% Win 69 gr JHP-BT Match S223M, 31LE61, 2758, 30.1, 11.9, 7.0, 0.34, 0.16, 14.1, 79.5%[/b] While the 68/69 is obviously not the same as 75/77, maybe it will help to get a better idea of what the heavier bullets will do compared to known, lighter ones. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 5:46:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2003 5:53:23 PM EDT by 5pins]
Maybe one should have one or two 20rd mags with some 55gr soft or hollow points for indoor use. The range inside would be so close that the weapon could keep it’s zero with the heaver stuff. Another idea that may work is going to a heaver bullet of around 60gr in a soft or hollow point style for everything.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 6:05:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5pins: Maybe one should have one or two 20rd mags with some 55gr soft or hollow points for indoor use. The range inside would be so close that the weapon could keep it’s zero with the heaver stuff. Another idea that may work is going to a heaver bullet of around 60gr in a soft or hollow point style for everything.
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60 grain hollowpoints are not going to be effective against two legged targets. Ditto for any lighter hollow points. 55 grain FMJ (i.e. M193) is a good pick.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 9:51:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2003 9:55:06 AM EDT by DocGKR]
Roberts G: “The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Carbines Compared With 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”. Wound Ballistics Review. 3 (4):16-28, 1998 “The majority of the 5.56mm/.223 bullets which were fired through the interior wall exhibited minimal changes in terminal performance compared with bare gelatin (see .223 JHP/JSP wound profiles). However, three 5.56mm/.223 loads exhibited significant differences in terminal performance between shots fired into bare gelatin versus shots first penetrating an interior wall (see interior wall wound profiles). The Winchester 55 gr M193 style FMJ (X223R1) exhibited minimal fragmentation and deformation after first passing through an interior wall. Strangely, the Winchester 62 gr M855 FMJ (RA556M855) “green tip” had exactly the opposite performance when first hitting an interior wall; it exhibited significant early fragmentation, with only the steel core tip penetrating beyond 19 cm/7.5”. The Winchester 69 gr JHP (S223M) had very early breakup after striking an interior wall, with only a few small fragments penetrating beyond 19 cm. Since all of the 5.56mm/.223 bullets fired through the interior wall had significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through an interior wall, stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and in crowded urban environments than 9mm, .40 S&W, or 12 ga. weapons.” All shots below fired through AR15 16" 1/7 at 10 feet. Load, Lot#, Vel f/s, Pen”, Max TC (cm), RD”, RL”, RW gr, % Frag Into Bare Gel: Fed 55 gr JSP Tactical LE223T , 290115V090, 2854, 16.8, 8.5, 0.46, 0.31, 53.7, 2.4% Win 55 gr FMJ X223R1, 24EEC, 2886, 14.3, 11.5, 0.21, 0.77, 45.7, 17.0% Win 62 gr FMJ RA556M855, 12FF22, 2927, 14.7, 11.5, 0.33, 0.62, 42.6, 31.3% Black Hills/Horn 75 gr OTM, 120103121, 2580, 13.3, 14.0, 0.47, 0.28, 41.9, 44.1% Hornady 75 gr TAP OTM 80265, 12258978801, 2564, 13.3, 12.0, 0.46, 0.42, 39.0, 48.0% ----------------------- Shots through wall replicas of standard construction interior walls, fabricated using two pieces of 1/2” thick dry wall cut in 12” x 24” segments, mounted four inches apart using 2 x 4” fir studs and 1.5” dry wall screws, placed 10 cm/4” in front of the edge of the gelatin blocks: Fed 55 gr JSP Tactical LE223T, 290115V090, 2905, 14.4, 8.5, 0.41, 0.36, 48.5, 11.8%, Win 55 gr FMJ X223R1, 24EEC, 2898, 16.1, 11.5, 0.22, 0.50, 46.5, 15.5% Win 62 gr FMJ RA556M855, 12FF22, 2962, 11.5, 10.0, 0.20, 0.36, 13.4, 78.4% Black Hills/Horn 75 gr OTM, 120103121, 2595, 13.0, 14.0, 0.44, 0.37, 46.2, 38.4% Hornady 75 gr TAP BT 80265, 12258978801, 2564, 12.2, 12.0, 0.42, 0.40, 39.6, 47.2%
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 12:09:03 PM EDT
Doc, you have remarked before that variables in bullet construction for M855 can give different terminal performance from lot to lot. Based on your testing experience, would you say that the barrier penetration of M855 and SS109 loads might also vary widely from lot to lot?
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 2:46:30 PM EDT
Someone please explain to me why a lighter HP(which would provide the lowest barrier penetration risk) with 8-10" of penetration wouldn't be adequite for indoor use. I don't know who has added these interjecting comments to the article .223 for CQB but this snip makes sense to be for indoor and extremely CQ engagements.
I disagree with Mr. Taubert’s point of view for the simple fact that we are discussing Close Quarters firearms, and not long range sniping firearms. In these instances, a barrel length of 6-10 inches is practical for entry team use as it allows for greater maneuverability and acceptable ballistic performance with 55-grain hollow point ammunition. Most of my information is based upon real-world shootings and actual testing of commercial ammunition in short barreled firearms designed for this application
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Heavy OTM bullets for battlefield engagements have completely different requirements.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 11:22:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2003 11:23:59 AM EDT by Forest]
Originally Posted By Ridge: Someone please explain to me why a lighter HP(which would provide the lowest barrier penetration risk) with 8-10" of penetration wouldn't be adequite for indoor use.
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12" is an accepted minimum penetration so that the round can reach vital organs/blood carrying vessels no matter the angle of the shot or the size of the person. In other words with 12" you can handle a "Worst Case" scenario. This is the best explaination as to Why that I've found:
Most physicians knowledgeable in wound trauma believe that adequate penetration depth is the most important single property in handgun ammunition. The appropriate value for minimum penetration depth has generally been assumed to be 12 inches ever since the first FBI wound ballistics meeting in 1987. Unfortunately, this assumption has often been interpreted very simplistically (i.e., 12.1 Inches of penetration is good, but 11.9 inches of penetration is no good), but the real situation is more complicated. The problem is the possibility that the bullet will require an unusually large penetration to reach vital structures well inside the body. This can occur when the bullet must traverse non-critical tissue; e.g., the extended arm of an assailant aiming his handgun, and/or an unusual bullet path angle in the torso, and/or an unusually fat or beefy individual. The probability of needing this extra penetration is a judgment call, but most people believe it is a significant factor and much more important than the relatively modest increase in expanded diameter achieved by reducing penetration depth (e.g., approximately 30% increase in expanded bullet diameter is achieved by designing to an 8 inch penetration depth rather than 12 inches). This is the reason the professional wound ballistics community specified the 12 inch minimum penetration even though they are well aware that an 8 inch penetration is usually adequate. The suggested specification values for mean penetration depth are greater than 12.5 inches and less than 14.0 inches. Even at the limit of minimum value of this range (12.5 inches) and the limiting value of standard deviation (0.6) in Section 6.1.1, about 80% of the penetration will be greater than 12 inches and essentially all will be greater than 11 inches. This bare gelatin test provides a lower limit on penetration because most shootings will involve at least some clothing; slightly less expansion and slightly deeper penetration can be expected in typical service use.
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Quote take from section 6.1.2 of the [b]IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specification Supplement[/b]. This document can be found here: [url]http://www.firearmstactical.com/iwba.htm#Specification Supplement[/url]
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