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Posted: 12/29/2002 8:21:35 AM EDT
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Yesterday, I decided to go to the range and burn off my remaining wolf stash. I had 500 rounds. At somewhere around the 400 round mark, my bushmaster locked up TIGHT. I pulled on the T handle to the point of thinking either The handle or my fingers were going to break. I finally took the upper off and as Gently as I could, pryed the bolt Carrier back (from the bottom side). The empty casing that I recovered from the chamber show No signs of Melted Lacquer or the like. I then re assembled the weapon and finnished off the remainder of the rounds without a hitch. What could be the Cause of this Failure? After 500 rounds of wolf (the last I will ever shoot, because of severe accuracy problems) my weapon looked as if It had black toothpaste inside it. I next fired 300 rounds of SA surplus(much more accurate ammo in my weapon). I never once cleaned the weapon or added any clp to her, I was trying to see just how far it would go. Out of 800 or so rounds this was my only malfunction. Never had to use the forward asssist. Just how far will one of these things go without any cleaning. I had always heard that ar's were finicky and had to be constantly cleaned, doesn't seem to be the case. It took several hours of cleaning to get her back to spic and span, The insides were full of gunk, looked like I had been firing black powder ammo through the gun. How many rounds can one fire before the weapon becomes too gummed up to function? |
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Quoted: Join the club. Do you know the method of slamming the buttstock in the ground while pulling on the charging handle? It works like a charm (thankfully, I've only had to do it once, tho). Never had heard of this, if this happens ever again, I'll think about trying it. My Ar is too pretty to be slamming around too much. Thanks for the tip. |
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Wolf is very dirty. I use it all the time in my AK and SKS and the rifles are absolutly filthy when I'm done. It sounds like you had one bad case with either an out of spec dimension or a very smell split that kept it stuck in the chamber. As to how many live rounds it takes to jam an AR, I once put 1,100 blanks through an M-16 without a stoppage. Blanks are alot like Wolf so draw your own conclusion. |
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Quoted: Never had heard of this, if this happens ever again, I'll think about trying it. My Ar is too pretty to be slamming around too much. Thanks for the tip. No damage will be done to your rifle. To extract the stuck casing: Get on your knees (if not using a shooting bench) Point rifle up (don't look down the barrel, please) Grab charging handle firmly with one hand and start pulling down. Use other hand to hit the buttstock of the rifle on the ground. Charging handle should come loose and eject stuck casing. If not, repeat until it works. |
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Another Rock River AR-15 is locked up tight due to Wolf ammo. I ran into a friend out at my favorite coyote hunting area and just as I pulled up he shot his last round. He was shooting the Wolf ammo which locked up his rifle, and we had to separate the upper and lower receiver to get a better look at what was going on. It appeared that his bolt did not rotate far enough but was stuck between lugs. I've read that several people have commented that the ammo is really dirty, which may account for the malfunction and I've read an article on Olympic Arms website about the lacquer causing the malfunction does anyone know just what is causing the problem. Does the lacquer have anything to do with the problem? Thanks. |
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Quoted: Thanks for all the great info., but for use newbies what does CLP stand for. I'm just learning about AR-15's and how to keep them clean without over doing it or leaving areas dirty. Cleaner, Lubricant, Preservative = CLP It's good stuff. It's all i use on my AR and it couldn't be happier! |
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Quoted: Another Rock River AR-15 is locked up tight due to Wolf ammo. I ran into a friend out at my favorite coyote hunting area and just as I pulled up he shot his last round. He was shooting the Wolf ammo which locked up his rifle, and we had to separate the upper and lower receiver to get a better look at what was going on. It appeared that his bolt did not rotate far enough but was stuck between lugs. I've read that several people have commented that the ammo is really dirty, which may account for the malfunction and I've read an article on Olympic Arms website about the lacquer causing the malfunction does anyone know just what is causing the problem. Does the lacquer have anything to do with the problem? Thanks. The casing I dislodged from my Bushmaster shouwed No signs of melted Lacquer, nor did the texture of the outside of the case have a funny or rough feel. I also felt no bulges or saw any splits in the case. I have seen lots of stuff posted in the past about the melted lacquer causing problems, Also have seen posts saying that this is false. I DO NOT believe the LACQUER cause the malfunction in MY rifle. I posted to find out if anyone had any other suggestions to the cause. Apparently this is not a RARE type of malfunction, It really scarred the hell out of me. I though I was ruined, until I finally freed the bolt and saw NO damage. Maybe I just ran across a shitty out of spec casing or something? I had feed, FTE problems with my rifle with all types of ammo (mostly with wolf) for about the first 500 rounds through my Ar when It was OUT OF THE BOX NEW. IT is now WELL broken in and Eats everything I feed her. I would continue to feed her wolf, but Accuracy is about Pie pan sized out at 75 yards. Not GOOD. SA and q3131a group exceptionally well for me out of this weapon, so this is what I will shoot while it is still available. As for your question about CLP. It is supposed to be a single product that Cleans/Lubes/Protects or Preserves. I have used it alone, but prefer to use a solvent such as Hoppes #9 to clean and then lube the rifle up with clp. Alot of different opinions here, but thats what works for me. |
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Was the rifle cleaned and lubed with CLP prior to the Wolf stoppage? CLP lube should last more than 400 rounds. CLP is designed to be a cumulative product, meaning the longer you use it the better it lubes. Even without any Teflon in the later formulas. If you're constantly stripping it out with solvent you're starting over every time. Since this is a chromelined bore you can clean it with a Boresnake down the barrel a couple of times, clean and lube the bolt carrier group, and put her away. No more than 10 minutes. Drill sergeants notwithstanding, it's not necessary or desireable to get a white patch thru the bore and have it white on the other end. The need to get rid of "copper fouling" ended 50 years ago when the US military stopped using corrosive primers -- commercial ammo was non-corrosive before WW2. -- Chuck |
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Chamber problem. Chamber problem. Chamber problem. Did I say chamber problem? Bet you are not using a Colt barrel. My personal record for Wolf thru a Colt 16" HBAR in full auto is 4,000+ rounds in 2 sessions without cleaning. Finally had to clean because a friend mounted a sound suppressor and the blowback was too much; it was like cleaning a chimney. Colt barrels have a proprietary chamber which I call "NATO+"; a standard SAAMI FIELD gauge will close on a Colt chamber. Your chamber is most likely on the mininum side of .223 so a round which is on the maximum side of 5.56 will get jam the rim or shoulder. Will happen with both steel and brass case ammo. I had some pet reloads that was just .003 past max and it jammed up my Wilson match chamber the exact same way as you described. Standard clearance drill is to slam the buttstock down and pull the charging handle at the same time; remember to keep body parts clear of the muzzle. |
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Quoted: Another Rock River AR-15 is locked up tight due to Wolf ammo. I ran into a friend out at my favorite coyote hunting area and just as I pulled up he shot his last round. He was shooting the Wolf ammo which locked up his rifle, and we had to separate the upper and lower receiver to get a better look at what was going on. It appeared that his bolt did not rotate far enough but was stuck between lugs. I've read that several people have commented that the ammo is really dirty, which may account for the malfunction and I've read an article on Olympic Arms website about the lacquer causing the malfunction does anyone know just what is causing the problem. Does the lacquer have anything to do with the problem? Thanks. Straightshooter_45, I got it fixed, it was just real dirty, I made the mistake of firing wolf out of it before and not cleaning it. It had all kinds of gunk in the chamber. No damage at all. Did you have any luck with the Coyote's? |
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I run Wolf 7.62x39 through my AKs all the time, 0 problems but laquered steel casings and AKs seem to go hand in hand. Despite that- Another one of my pet peeves is running that dirty Wolf steel cased laquer coated ammo through ANY of my other firearms. NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!Especially my AR's. Wolf will never,never,ever enter the chamber of either of my Bushies kind of like any commercial AR mag will never,NEVER,ever be inserted into the mag wells. Strictly military-spec/high quality commercial ammo and strictly USGI spec mags for me. By following these two basic personal rules I have never ever had a hiccup through either of my AR rifles with 10s of thousands of rounds. (plus cleaning thoroughly after every firing session). |
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Quoted: I run Wolf 7.62x39 through my AKs all the time, 0 problems but laquered steel casings and AKs seem to go hand in hand. Despite that- Another one of my pet peeves is running that dirty Wolf steel cased laquer coated ammo through ANY of my other firearms. NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!Especially my AR's. Wolf will never,never,ever enter the chamber of either of my Bushies kind of like any commercial AR mag will never,NEVER,ever be inserted into the mag wells. Strictly military-spec/high quality commercial ammo and strictly USGI spec mags for me. By following these two basic personal rules I have never ever had a hiccup through either of my AR rifles with 10s of thousands of rounds. (plus cleaning thoroughly after every firing session). Not knocking your pickyness, Cheap ammo+ar15=lots more fun.. The ONLY problem I have had with Wolf ammo (.223) is it being dirty, I have not ever had any major malfunctions with it (except for one and that was my fault because I didn't clean my rifle like I was suppose too.) I have shot many thousand of rounds and never had a case split or one blow up my rifle. There are a few other brands I definitely would not shoot in my rifle like Sellier and Bellot ammo of any kind in any firearm I own. I have had a few ftf's with Wolf. However, I buy Wolf to plink with not to defend my home .. Just my 2 1/2 cents.... |
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Quoted: Join the club. Do you know the method of slamming the buttstock in the ground while pulling on the charging handle? It works like a charm (thankfully, I've only had to do it once, tho). PLEASE be careful with this, especially with shorties. Do NOT sweep your head with the muzzle when performing this desperate function! You may end up clearing more than your weapon. (Like your sinuses). |
| This is exactly why I swore off of wolf ammo a long time ago. My friend had a case get stuck in the chamber of his mini 14. The slide cycled and ripped off the outer rim of the case. When I tried to pry out the case, I ripped off what was left of the rim. It took us half and hour and the destruction of a cleaning rod to get it out. Wolf ammo sucks!!!!! |
| So much controversy over Wolf ammo....I fired 180 rounds of Wolf's 62-grain FMJ thru my AR6520 with no problems. However, using the same ammo in my Robinson M96 rifle was a disaster. The ammo caused the bolt to lock into battery. Had to pound on the bolt handle to extract the stuck case from the chamber. It happened a number of times. Also tried firing the same Wolf ammo thru my stainless Thompson Contender .223 pistol. The round went in the chamber good. The barreled action closed alright. The round fired reliably when the hammer fell. However, no matter how hard I pulled up on the Thompson's trigger guard, the barrel action would not open. Had to remove the handguard and disassemble the barrel action from the pistol frame and then I had to punch out the offending stuck Wolf case from the chamber using a cleaning rod. Never had such a malfunction using brass cased ammo in the Thompson Contender before. Needless to say, whether it is the lacquer coating or the steel case, Wolf .223 ammo should be reserved for weapons with "generous" chamber tolerances. As both the Robinson M96 rifle and the Thompson Contender pistol have slightly tighter chamber tolerances, malfunctions abound. I suspect if one fires enough Wolf .223 ammo thru their AR-15 long enough, extraction malfunctions will appear as more and more of that lacquer is baked onto the chamber walls. |
| Forgot to mention that not all Wolf ammo is bad. Shot a whole case of Wolf 7.62 x39mm FMJ ammo thru my Hungarian FEG AK and my Polytech SKS with no malfunctions whatsoever. Looking at other users' accounts, the trend seems to be that if you own a "Combloc" inspired weapon (ie. SKS,AK-47,Moisin-Nagant,Saiga,Dragunov,or even the 9x18mm Makarov), Wolf ammo seems to work just fine in them. However, like one of this board's moderators hypothesized about the .223, the rest of Wolf's ammo line in .223, .380 Auto, 9mm Luger, .40S&W, and .45 ACP were never intended to be manufactured using steel lacquered cases. If you have a weapon in one of these chamberings, stay with brass cased ammo. |
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I have had several case failures with SA surplus, in fact I had one KB in my M16 that blew the mag apart. I have used Wolf and will use it in the future. The biggest problem with Wolf is that it is kind of weak, and does not cycle one of my uppers. I only use Wolf in my chrome lined barrels. The Wolf is not that dirty. If you really want to see something dirty, shoot 2000 rounds of 22s through your AR. |
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I am guessing that the steel casing has less elasticity than brass, meaning that it does not 'snap back' from the chamber walls after firing as well as a conventional brass case does. Couple this with the shellac-covered case, and you have the perfect recipe for stuck cases. This theory also explains why the AK/SKS work fine with it (loose, loose, loose), and why a Glock 21/30/36 can shoot Wolf .45 all day in a polygonal stock barrel, but that same ammo will be more likely stick tight in a tighter-chambered aftermarket barrel. Not that I would...I reload for everything I shoot in centerfire short of 12 gauge, and I will when/if I take up skeet shooting. The only two brands of ammo my Bushy has fired(and probably will EVER fire) are UMC cheapo 55 gr FMJ rounds used solely for plinking, and the wonderful variety of H4895 and W748 Varmint handloads I put up using that brass, featuring 40-62 grain slugs, Nosler Ballistic Tips in the lighter category (40-55, along with VMAX) and Nosler Partitions in the deer/big cat rounds. The heavies work wonders on marmots and long-range coyote, too. Never have shot game with this rifle; I traded a Remington M700 VLS for it, and that one was accurate but just too heavy. I live in Oregon, after all, and much of my terrain is nearly vertical. My V-Match is half the weight, making for an excellent mountain rifle, and my best loads, with 55 gr Nosler BT's, consistently shoot into .75" or less at 100M with the Bushnell 4-12X AO glass...just as good as the ol' tackdriver ever was capable of! I'm thinking about the Bushnell 6-18X AO, now! I wonder if that would give me even better groups...and it'd still have the way-kewl golden "B" on the turret cap! Oh, well...regards, FastVFR800 PS. I hear Wolf ammo makes your AR smell like a well-used litterbox....man, that's a good enough reason to me for avoiding it! [puke] |
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Quoted: Quoted: Join the club. Do you know the method of slamming the buttstock in the ground while pulling on the charging handle? It works like a charm (thankfully, I've only had to do it once, tho). Never had heard of this, if this happens ever again, I'll think about trying it. My Ar is too pretty to be slamming around too much. Thanks for the tip. Right on- I've had to do this once with wolf crap and after repeated slamming(six or seven times) The bolt came loose from the case but the case remained in the bore! Luckily I had my USGI cleaning kit and thrust the cleaning rod down the barrel to pop the sh*tty metal case loose. That was the end of my wolf days. Besides the metal casing does a number on your "brass" deflector. "Too Pretty" I'm not going to comment... Ever seen that nice sorta brushed aluminum look on a "well used" AR or M16... |
| i got into this game with Glocks and my first rifle was an AK...so i got accustomed to paying dirt cheap prices for Wolf ammmo and getting results. i stock up on XM193 whenever i find a good deal but i'll be damned if i'm gonna shoot all my good end-of-civilization ammo at the range! altho i've only put a few hundred rounds of Wolf .223 thru my AR's i figure that if my gun don't run on the bottom of the barrel stuff, it ain't the gun i trust my life with. this is the whole reason i got the .21 Genghis upper for one of my AR's....its made FOR Wolf...you can't beat that! |
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