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Posted: 11/25/2002 9:27:24 AM EDT
Is it right that ss109 round penetrate deeper in a steel plate at 200 yards than at 25 yards ??
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 9:31:39 AM EDT
According to the [b]AMMO FAQ[/b], your correct. [red][b]Q. But doesn't M855 penetrate hard objects better than M193?[/b] It depends. At close ranges (up to 200 yards), M193 will penetrate more steel than M855, due to its increased velocity. Beyond 200 yards, M855's bullet construction starts paying off and it will penetrate better than M193. M855 also loses velocity more slowly than M193, with a cross-over point at about 200-300 yards, beyond which M855 will have more velocity than M193.[/red] Mike
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 10:19:17 AM EDT
Yes, but i read that the same bullet (ss109) penetrate more at 200y than at 25yds (without compare to m193). They say that the very hight velocity at 25 yds, stressed too much the bullet to perform well.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 1:13:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 1:21:53 PM EDT
Myself and others have disagreed with Troy about M855 penetrating less than M193 at close ranges. I have personally seen M855 outpenetrate M193 (LC and SA) at 50 meters. Tests were done on 1" rolled aluminum blocks, as well as steel. In aluminum tests, the M855 flat out kick butt on the M193- outpenetrating it by over 2/5 more. In steel, the results are more subdued, but M855's steel penetrator clearly helps, no matter what the velocity. The M193 is just too fragile to do any serious work on hardened alloy steel, unless one is using mild steel. I know, because I tested over 5 different metals in one day...all of them in a vise to keep them stable. FYI, beware of not stabilizing your metal in a vise or similar contraption before testing. If you are trying to simulate penetration on a rigid object (ie a car or truck), then you need your testing medium to remain rigid. I know that Troy disagrees with my M855 vs. M193 analysis, but I encourage everyone with the means to try this experiment for themselves.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 1:28:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 7:26:00 PM EDT
I can say that I did try this test when I first bought some SS109. I had a piece of 1/2 plate steel(mild)if memory serves me. At about 30yds the M193 penatrated about 90% of the plate leaving a large crater. The SS109 only bounced off the plate leaving a dimple about an 1/8" deep. I was so dissapointed at the time that I traded the ammo for some M193. Maybe I will have to try it again. If I want real penetration then I will stick to my FAL with AP rounds, it works so much nicer[:D]. That or I will have to save up for a .50 cal.[;)]
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 8:17:45 PM EDT
[cleatus from the nutty professor] My Black Tip 30.06 will whoop all of your .223 and .308 asses [/cleatus from the nutty professor] [;)]
Link Posted: 11/26/2002 3:37:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2002 3:39:33 AM EDT by mcantu]
The following is from an Army field manual on urban combat: b. Weapon Penetration. The penetration that can be achieved with a 5.56-mm round depends on the range to the target and the type of material being fired against. The M16A2, M4, and M249 achieve greater penetration than the older M16A1, but only at longer ranges. At close range, the weapons perform the same. Single 5.56-mm rounds are not effective against structural materials (as opposed to partitions) when fired at close range—the closer the range, the less the penetration. (1) 5.56 mm Maximum Penetration. For the 5.56-mm round, maximum penetration occurs at 200 meters. At ranges less then 25 meters, penetration is greatly reduced. At 10 meters, penetration by the M16 round is poor due to the tremendous stress placed on this high-speed round, which causes it to yaw upon striking a target. Stress causes the projectile to break up, and the resulting fragments are often too small to penetrate. Here is the link to the rest of the section about different weapons against typical urban barriers: www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-06.11/ch7.htm#par2
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 5:09:48 AM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 8:00:55 AM EDT
Does anyone has ever tested real AP ammo in 5.56 ?
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 9:05:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2002 9:06:01 AM EDT by brouhaha]
Originally Posted By chris223: Does anyone has ever tested real AP ammo in 5.56 ?
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I'd love to. The problem is getting ahold of the stuff. I have never even SEEN it, neither have most people that are in the military. It's very much a specialty round. If you have some, I'd lover to get my hands on it to experiment with.
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 10:36:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Originally Posted By chris223: Does anyone has ever tested real AP ammo in 5.56 ?
View Quote
I'd love to. The problem is getting ahold of the stuff. I have never even SEEN it, neither have most people that are in the military. It's very much a specialty round. If you have some, [red]I'd lover[/red] to get my hands on it to experiment with.
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Brou, is this an indication of what you'd be willing to do to get your hands on some? Ewww...
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 12:34:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 12:45:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Originally Posted By chris223: Does anyone has ever tested real AP ammo in 5.56 ?
View Quote
I'd love to. The problem is getting ahold of the stuff. I have never even SEEN it, neither have most people that are in the military. It's very much a specialty round. If you have some, I'd lover to get my hands on it to experiment with.
View Quote
From what I understand, the 5.56mm AP ammo is mostly for the SAW and until recently I swear there has been a shortage of SAW links, we were not able to secure any ammo for the SAW in my company from 2000 until the end of last year. So I have hardly seen ammo loaded for the SAW, let alone black tip ammo.
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 12:54:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By guardian855: From what I understand, the 5.56mm AP ammo is mostly for the SAW and until recently I swear there has been a shortage of SAW links, we were not able to secure any ammo for the SAW in my company from 2000 until the end of last year. So I have hardly seen ammo loaded for the SAW, let alone black tip ammo.
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If you can get some without getting yourself into trouble... And Eswanson... [;D]
Link Posted: 11/27/2002 7:34:36 PM EDT
I think that what happens is that at 200 yards, the round reaches optimal stabalization and velocity for maximum penetration. If you look a little further down on the page I linked to, you will see a list of materials that will stop a 5.56 round at 50 meters. Could you try your penetration tests again but at different ranges (25, 50, 100, 200 yards) and take pictures of the results?
Originally Posted By Troy:
Originally Posted By mcantu: The following is from an Army field manual on urban combat: www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-06.11/ch7.htm#par2
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I know this was a quote, but unfortunately (for the soldiers that are trying to learn something from this manual) the information is almost meaningless, as it doesn't talk about what material is being shot at. Different target mediums will have very different penetration results at various ranges. When trying to shoot through hard metals, more velocity is better. But at high velocities, shooting sand, wood, or flesh, the bullet will fragment and give LESS penetration than a slower bullet (that won't fragment) will. It just drives me crazy when people ask "how much will x round penetrate?" My first question is always "Penetrate WHAT? The 'what' matters!" -Troy
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Link Posted: 11/28/2002 1:53:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2002 1:54:38 PM EDT by Colonel_Kurtz]
Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Originally Posted By chris223: Does anyone has ever tested real AP ammo in 5.56 ?
View Quote
I'd love to. The problem is getting ahold of the stuff. I have never even SEEN it, neither have most people that are in the military. It's very much a specialty round. If you have some, I'd lover to get my hands on it to experiment with.
View Quote
[url=www.deltaforce.com/catalog/pg22.html]Deltaforce[/url] has armor-piercing .223 rounds so they say. 139.95 for 100rds. Don't know if they're real or not.
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 4:07:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2002 8:15:07 PM EDT by brouhaha]
Originally Posted By Colonel_Kurtz: [url=www.deltaforce.com/catalog/pg22.html]Deltaforce[/url] has armor-piercing .223 rounds so they say. 139.95 for 100rds. Don't know if they're real or not.
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Yeah...so they say. Last I heard, it was really M855 that they were selling for over a $1 per round... [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 11/28/2002 7:19:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2002 7:23:47 PM EDT by MillerSHO]
Sorry if I offend anyone but this deltaforce website has to be a joke! Taken from their site.
Armor Piercing .223 Ammunition The optimum choice for defeating reinforced targets. This is SS-109 delivering a 63 grain bullet at 3100 FPS. We have been able to secure a Limited Supply of this scarce ammo. So don't delay. Designed for firearms in good working order only. Perfect for your AR-15/M16, Ruger Mini-14, HK93, Rem 700, etc. CANNOT BE SHIPPED TO CALIFORNIA!! Item # AP210--10 Pack $19.95 Item # AP225--100 Pack $139.95
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HAHAH, $140 for SS109!! Look at the excitment that they it can't be bought in cali. bahahahah
Link Posted: 11/29/2002 7:59:44 PM EDT
While on the subject of penetration and AP bullets.. Anyone ever given a thought about the Barnes Solids? They make two .22 cal bullets, a 45gr spitzer and 50gr spitzer. Solid copper/zinc alloy that's DESIGNED to stay in one piece no matter what it hits.. The large calibers are used in Africa for large dangerous game when maximum penetration is needed. I'd launch some 45gr pills through my 22-250 at super high speeds and see what they can do, but damn! are they expensive.
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