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Posted: 11/6/2002 3:44:00 PM EDT
Does anyone know of a Less lethal or Non Lethal .223 ammo? Is there a "rubber bullet" or a round that shoots pepper or somthing to that effect?

If not, I think it would be a good idea for "home-defence" in which the threat isn't a highly trained person. If you think about it, I wouldn't want to shoot an intruder with the AR due to the fact that some idiot will say "another life taken by the M-16" Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 7:35:22 AM EDT
- the 5.56mm platform does not lend itself well to less lethal rounds
- due to its small diameter its tends to penetrate rather than do blunt impact trauma - which the majority of less lethal rounds rely upon.

Secondly and vastly more importantly - less lethal is not non-thetal - any less lethal responce can be possible lethal.
If you feel your life is in danger that you are considering taking defensive lethal actions - you likely do not have the time to consider/access if your threat is a highly trained or untrained person - they are a threat and must be dealt with accordingly.

If you feel the AR is a non-PC defensive tool - get your self something that you feel confident in using. Any nagging doubts will cause problems with your responce.

-Kevin
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 10:42:54 AM EDT
Hmm, could get a Ciener kit and shoot .22LR =)... But I wouldn't bet my life on a .22...
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 11:31:31 AM EDT
The only one that I can think of an Israeli system that uses the a muzzle attachment and a blank round to propel a plastic baton.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 12:18:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CANADIAN_TACTICAL:
Secondly and vastly more importantly - less lethal is not non-thetal - any less lethal responce can be possible lethal



Correct. FWIW my employers homicide division investigates all our shootings with the less lethal shotgun. If we are not legally justified in killing the suspect, then we are not legally justified in using the less lethal. When we use a less lethal option there is always at least one back up with a deadly force weapon ready incase the less lethal fails.

I have shot enough people with the less lethal shotgun at this point to know I wouldnt want to rely on it as my primary home defense option.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 12:22:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 1:19:23 PM EDT
A threat who isn't a "highly trained" person is likely to see a homeowner with an "M-16" (that IS what the perp is going to think it is) and decide either A) oh s--t, feets don't fail me now, or B) oh s--t, "PLEEEEEEEEEAASE DON'T SHOOT ME, PLEASE GOD NO!" and comply with your orders while emptying his bowels.

Still, there is always Mr. Murphy and the idiot who decides he can take you out fast-draw with the .25ACP tucked in his pants. If you are going to defend your house with a gun, you have to accept that you might have to kill somebody some day. You really don't want to, but it's a possibility you must accept. If you want to be "non-lethal," get rid of the AR and get a rubber-padded baseball bat.

Personally, the only "home defense" scenarios I can envision utilizing my AR15 for are Watts-style riots, total breakdown of civilization, or defending my property from jackbooted thugs. For everything else a Glock or a 12ga will do the job and make the prosecutor's attempts to pin "rambo wannabe" on that much harder.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 3:33:58 PM EDT
I agree with the statement that there is no guarantee that less-lethal won't be lethal in some cases.Anecdotal reports (I wasn't there and wasn't involved): 1) .357 Mag at fleeing felon hits top of back of head on "Fro" comb in hair. He loses his balance a few steps and then takes off even faster. 2) .22 Rimfire Deringer impacts into buttock and bullet deflects upward into body cavity where it seems to contact every organ imaginable.Impactee dies. I've heard that with a knife, you can cut a little or a lot; however, with a firearm,there is no such a thing as "shoot a little".
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 4:12:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 8:27:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Less-lethal options are for use when you have a bunch of people carrying lethal force to back you up in the event that the "less-lethal" option fails.

If you're on your own, I strongly advise against gun-based "less-lethal" solutions.

-Troy




EXCELLENT POINT
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 10:15:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2002 10:16:27 PM EDT by DScottHewitt]
You are using deadly force because it is deemed necessary to STOP an aggressor. Will the less lethal device STOP the aggressor? Might, might not. If the dude loses consciousness ten minutes after you hit him, might ruin your whole day. Best situation in a lethal encounter is to make sure you are NOT the one lethally injured.....


Scott

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