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Posted: 10/29/2002 6:19:04 PM EDT
Which is the "best" .223 ammo that is comercially available for a 16" barreled rifle? I believe that a Bushmaster H-bar is 1:7 twist?
I'd like a round that would put someone or something down quick. Such as when I'm in bear or Mountain Lion country. Or the more dangerous two legged variety.
I'm sure this has been beated to death, but the search has been down for quite a while.
Thanks,
-Steve
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 7:05:50 PM EDT
Well for bears I'd like to suggest a larger caliber. It might shread you to bits before it dies, assuming you hit it in a vital spot.
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 7:51:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/30/2002 1:55:09 PM EDT
Steve --

I suggest you get a Marlin M1895G Guide Gun in .45-70 and buy some heavy, hot loads for it. Light enought to carry almost anywhere.

Warning shots only result in one less round in the magazine.

Any military 5.56mm cartridge will be adequate for two legged attackers as amply demonstrated earlier this month by the DC shooters.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 10:30:09 AM EDT
Although I’d agree that a heavier caliber rifle would be preferable to any .223/5.56mm rifle in bear or mountain lion country, if that’s all you’ve got I would recommend a heavy JSP out of a 16” barrel. The Hornady 75gr. TAP and the Winchester 64gr. PowerPoint JSP are about as good as you can get in that regard.

For 2 legged predators, either of the above are fine or even use cheaper M193 or M855-spec military ball ammo. Any of those will fit the bill.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 3:20:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By stevenb:
Which is the "best" .223 ammo that is comercially available for a 16" barreled rifle? I believe that a Bushmaster H-bar is 1:7 twist?
I'd like a round that would put someone or something down quick. Such as when I'm in bear or Mountain Lion country. Or the more dangerous two legged variety.
I'm sure this has been beated to death, but the search has been down for quite a while.
Thanks,
-Steve



Bushmaster is 1:9, btw.
Link Posted: 11/1/2002 10:38:35 PM EDT
Your Bushy is 1/9 not 1/7 and for that twist your best bet is Black Hills or Federal 69 grain BTHP match ammo, M193 or Winchester Power Point or Power Point Plus 64 grain soft point. In that order. 75 Grain Hornady TAP or Black Hills is a better ammo but your 16" 1/9 twist barrel wont stabilize it past 100m.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 11:17:32 AM EDT
About the bear?

If you put 20 rounds of 223 in the chest area, say at 50 yds, you don't think a bear would go down?

I don't have a clue just wondering.

It would have to make some difference in is attitude one way or the other.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 12:17:28 PM EDT
For a bear or other large wildlife - I would gather this is a defensive last ditch measure - as it behooves all of us venturing into the wilderness to give animals as wide a berth as possible (when not hunting) and to make minimal impact.
I would suggest that 5.56mm is not a reasonable calibre for this work - you are not going to have the time to get enough rounds into the animal in the time frame allotted, in this calibre.
I would suggest that .308Win/7.62mm is the min for this type of work - and that the 155gr AMAX bullet is what you would want to use.


Cretescreeder - at 50yds if a bear charges I would guess you might get off 6 rds - if you already have your wpn at the ready.

Link Posted: 11/2/2002 5:20:14 PM EDT
I don't know how you all know his BM is 1 in 9, not 1 in 7. Although 1 in 9 is standard, BM does do runs of 1 n 7 from time to time. Kiesler's was selling both 20" 1 in 9 and 20" 1 in 7 BM's a few months ago.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 7:44:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2002 7:46:31 PM EDT by tatjana]

Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter:
I don't know how you all know his BM is 1 in 9, not 1 in 7. Although 1 in 9 is standard, BM does do runs of 1 n 7 from time to time. Kiesler's was selling both 20" 1 in 9 and 20" 1 in 7 BM's a few months ago.



Please point me to some. I've been looking for months. The original poster asked about a 16", btw.

Here's BM's reply to my request for 16" barrels that are 1:7:



-----Original Message-----
From: Tatjana von E [mailto:tatjana@ar15.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:38 AM
To: Cheryl Eliason
Subject: Bushmaster barrels...

Hi.

I'd like to get a 1:7 twist 16" barreled upper- I far prefer Bushmaster
products (all of my weapons are Bushmaster currently) but I need a 1:7 twist
and chrome barrel for some heavier rounds I have been shooting.

Can Bushmaster provide me with a 16" 1:7 twisted chrome lined post-ban
upper?

Let me know?

-Tatjana


The only barrel that we offer with a 1/7 twist is a 20" pre ban government profile barrel. I have one 14.5" barrel with a 1/7 twist that is left over from a military order, but it is a pre ban barrel also.

Link Posted: 11/3/2002 5:05:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/3/2002 10:38:34 AM EDT by GLOCKshooter]
Dude said he has a 16" .223. I think he has a 5.56 (similar, but different). He may have a 14.4" w/perm brake or perm FS (similar, but different, ATF considers it 16").

If BM says the only special run currently is a 14.5, then I guess thats all that's out there right now. No telling if or when another run will come along. No telling what's out there from previous runs. Like the numbered flat top uppers, when they were gone, they were gone. Never cataloged, either.

If you "gotta have" a BM 16" 1 in 7, buy a 20" and have Kurt cut it down for you. He works the gas port so it is reliable. It's like a dissipator, but only has one FSB instead of one shaved and one for the sight, calls it the KurtsGewehr. I have been more than pleased with the work he has done for me (other stuff, haven't had that done).
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 7:34:12 PM EDT
You're more likely to find a Colt upper in 1/7 than a BM.

We've been having an increase in the cougar population for the past decade or so, and if one gets the drop on you, it's likely you'll never get the chance to fire at all. But if you do, I think I would prefer a heavier caliber. The guide gun is an excellent suggestion, but an 18" shotgun loaded with magnum slugs might be pretty good too.

And you know, it's doubtful you'll have the time to get off more than one round, especially with bears.
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 8:34:41 PM EDT
Tat,

If Bushmaster cuts off the bayonet lug and welds on a muzzle brake that brings the barrel length to 16" wouldn't it then be legal on a postban lower?

Scott

Link Posted: 11/3/2002 11:47:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 6:53:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DScottHewitt:
Tat,

If Bushmaster cuts off the bayonet lug and welds on a muzzle brake that brings the barrel length to 16" wouldn't it then be legal on a postban lower?

Scott




I would think so yes, but I really want a straight 16" without brake.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 7:52:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DScottHewitt:
If Bushmaster cuts off the bayonet lug and welds on a muzzle brake that brings the barrel length to 16" wouldn't it then be legal on a postban lower?



I think a lot of us out there find that 14.5" barrels are just about useless for what we want in a rifle. When it has to be 16" anyway (and you hate muzzle brakes), why not stick to a full 16" barrel? Velocity is the name of the game, and 14.5's don't play well.

(IMO!)
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 9:55:13 AM EDT
75 grain TAP ammo fragments out at a considerable distance with a 14.5" barrel. I find the extra 1.5" to make a HUGE difference in CQB work. The end of the barrel seems to catch on every door frame, corner and piece of furniture as if its magnetized.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 9:58:08 AM EDT
Devl, yeah but those of us who like the 14.5 dont have to listen to the 16" bbl length issue, nor the Flash hider issue etc.

-Kevin

Link Posted: 11/4/2002 10:14:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
75 grain TAP ammo fragments out at a considerable distance with a 14.5" barrel. I find the extra 1.5" to make a HUGE difference in CQB work. The end of the barrel seems to catch on every door frame, corner and piece of furniture as if its magnetized.



I've never noticed the difference in urban tactical drills. I actually prefer the 16" to the 14.5" for some reason and score much better with 16" shorties than with M4/m4geries. I have no explanation for this other than balance for my frame and personal preference.

Personally I like the barrel discipline that 16" forces indoors. It's too easy to get into bad habits with a 14.5" in my view- your mileage may vary, of course.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 10:30:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 5:27:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Velocity is the name of the game(IMO!)

Alright! Now they're naming games after me! It get's better and better.
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