AR Sponsor
Posted: 9/9/2002 6:20:49 AM EDT
|
I notice that the great pictures of gelatin shots with the 77gr. SMKs and 100gr. Black Hills load, along with reports from Afghanistan, seems to have peaked interest in heavier loadings of 5.56mm for defensive use. It seems to me that the military and to a lesser extent, law enforcement, will be able to switch seamlessly to the newer rounds as they become available. However, a large portion of both law enforcement and citizens have been sold on the 1/9 barrels in the past and that twist rate seems to limit usage of the new heavier rounds. I've seen GKRs recommendation for the 68/69gr SMK for 1/9 twist barrels and wondered if anybody had done any jello hunting with this round yet? Also, as bad as I feel for asking more from two people who have already done a tremendous amount to document and share information with lazy types like myself, I was hoping they might weigh in with any plans they have to test heavier loads in 1/9 barrels. |
|
Hot military loads with the 75gr bullets work in 1:9 rifles except in the coldest weather. The 77gr ammo needs a bit warmer weather, or a bit more altitude, to be stabilized reliably. Clearly, the 100gr loads are totally out of the question. But, hey, there's no way I could afford 10,000 rounds of ammo at $.75-1.00 per round anyway. But I can get most of that performance out of M193 for $.15-.16 per round, and I can afford to practice with my "duty" ammo. The military has an advantage: if they need more money for more expensive ammo, they just ask for more tax money. I can't do that. -Troy |
|
HSM's 75gr SMK fare is about $.45 round retail. I got a bunch (4.5k) a few years ago for less than $.36 I got a bunch last year for around.40 I am a match shooter too - so I use it for that as well as having it a back up for SHTF - The only reason I said backup up is I am a regular and assume I would be 'working' a SHTF scenario. |
Yes, alot of people limited their room to grow, so to speak, by buying 1:9 twist Brls on the flawed premise that a 1:9 is somehow better than a 1:7 for 55Gn ammo. |
Why do you think that the heavy bullet ammo will stay expensive for ever? Once the US orders them in quantity-and the newness factor and associated price gouging pass- the heavy bullet ammo will by just as common and as inexpensive as SS109 is now. And M193 stocks won't last for ever, in a few years there won't be any 1 in 12 rifles left in Govt. stocks-then they will stop ordering it. Heavy bullet ammo is only going to get cheeper-supply and demand will see to that. M193 can only go up in price, though there is enough that it should remain low at least through the end of this decade. |
You make it sound like any "heavy bullet" would perform like the ones in the test. That is NOT the case. These match JHP bullets are fragmenting because they are long, and because they have thin, uniform jackets typical of match ammo. Bullets made like this are more difficult to make, requiring more steps of production and QC, and costs to make them are higher. You cannot assume that simply making long, heavy (and cheaper) FMJ bullets would give you the same results. Any minor change in bullet design can have huge impacts to terminal ballistics. Certainly, prices ARE likely to fall over the long term if one of these loads is selected and standardized, but that could be many years. And likely most or all of the initial production would be diverted to military sales, making these loads harder to get. Things may certainly be different 5 years from now, but if that turns out to be the case, rebarreling won't be a problem (in fact, it would probably be necessary anyway, just due to wear). But M193 would continue to be less expensive, and continue to work in every gun out there, and would continue to do as well as it's always done. Realize that I'm not trying to tell people not to buy the ammo they want. Heck, I *know* that some folks here would have no trouble affording 10K of 75gr TAP if they wanted it. But, for the near future, I'm suggesting that M193 continues to be the most practical choice for all-around use. -Troy |
|
Ok Troy, but it seems that if we have identified length+thin jacket+cannalure as what is needed to make them effective, then it should be possible to make a FMJ that has the same effects. Right now there is no such animal, but people are also only just begining to understand what is going on. The use of expensive match hollowpoints might not last-OR they may discover that with modern manufacturing equipment it isn't half as hard as it used to be to crank out BTHP's. How much of the cost of a Match BTHP is absorbing the expense of all the ones that fail the extra high QC they undergo? If all we want is the fragmentation, and keeping match grade accuracy isn't a priority, you can cut this and other special handling procedures that match ammo gets and Ball doesnt and get a product no less consistant than ball and probably not much more expensive. |
|
Ok, so if someone wanted to try out some of these heavier bullets thru reloading..... Do they need... Special Dies? Are the 75 gr BTHP mag length? Any special powder that needs to be used or does H335 suffice? Any special issues come up when trying to load the heavier stuff? Stuff that the average reloader might need to know or take into consideration? Just trying to understand all this new hype about the heavier bullets.... 
|
| I'm pretty new around here, so please forgive me if someone else has already asked this question and I've missed it. What about the 69gr Sierra HPBT loadings from Federal (and others)? Seems like their extra velocity could help them fragment a little quicker than the 77gr bullets listed in the ammo FAQ. |
So 75-77gr MK's should be fine in my 24" 1x9 upper down here in Houston ?? |
|
Quicksilver, Load to feed through your mags with a solid taper crimp. As for powder look no further than Ramshot TAC.,and mind the starting 10% below listed max and working up. I did some tinkering this spring with the M4 for "Homework".Based upon relayed knowledge as a starting point,he Ramshot was selected,and proven best performer...cleaner too. Best of luck to ya! S-28 |
| Quicksilver - I haven't tried Ramshot yet, but I have also gotten good results using Varget and AA 2520. I use both the 69 gr. SMK and the 75 gr. Hornady BTHP in a 20" Bushy and a 20" Rem 700 LTR with 1-in-9 twists. The LTR prefers the 75 gr. and the Bushy prefers the 69 gr., but both shoot extremely well. I seat the bullets for a col of 2.250" that works in USGI magazines, but these sometimes hang up in my thermolds. Using the 75 gr. BTHP, the LTR will put 5 in a 1/2" or smaller group at 100 yds and the Bushy gets 5 in a 2" group at 200 yds. I read that you can push the 75 gr. almost as fast as the 69 gr. (2950 vs. 3050 on a warm day), but in my experience accuracy suffers and primer pockets loosen up (pressure warning) after only 4 or 5 loadings. My best accuracy with the 75 gr. has been with Varget at about 2650 fps from a 20" barrel. Using the long bullets and seating to magazine length, you will have to use compressed powder charges to reach the best velocities. Try 'em, you'll like 'em, and good shooting! PS - For defensive use I stick with LC M193 or Q3131a, although I have TAP 75's on hand. |
|
Yes, alot of people limited their room to grow, so to speak, by buying 1:9 twist Brls on the flawed premise that a 1:9 is somehow better than a 1:7 for 55Gn ammo. My Bushmaster upper is 1:9, but theres a nicely greased and wrapped Colt M4 barrel in the closet that may meet up with an upper soon ;) |
AR Sponsor