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Posted: 8/27/2009 11:36:25 AM EDT
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About a week ago I bought an M4 upper from Midway USA. I finally got it to the range yesterday. I put it on a RRA lower with a NM trigger. I tried it with Federal Bulk stuff from Wally World and Federal Auto Match.
The good news... 
It looks like it is going to be very accurate. There were no failures to feed, fire or eject. (On the 1st round) The bad news... 
This thing is a single shot! It feeds the first round from the magazine, fires, ejects and feeds another round. It won't fire the 2nd round because it is not cocking the bolt. Something is causing the bolt to bind. Without a magazine in place, when I pull back the charging handle, the bolts stays to the rear. It won't go back into battery without pressing on the forward assist. Bummer! I sent TacSol an email this morning. I got a reply back asking if I'm using a notched hammer. (I'm not) They also suggested shooting it 'dry'. (I am) Sent them another email and hopefully I will get better info this time. This is a nice looking little unit. I hope they can get it going for me. |
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Sounds like it may be the bolt catch on the lower riding against the 22 bolt. If not then it may be possible the notched hammer is catching the bolt but that doesn't seem likely because you can get it forward with the forward assist. Can be fixed either way. Minor filing of the top edge of the catch for the first and a un-notched hammer/trigger group for the second.
Spec |
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Thanks for your replies! I'm not using a notched hammer. The new RRA lower has a NM trigger and the hammer is un-notched. I also tried it on my DPMS lower (It also has an un-notched hammer.) with the same results. When I remove the bolt from the upper and slide the bolt back against the recoil spring pressure, it does seem to bind a little when it is as far to the rear as it can go. It does, however, return forward on its own when it is out of the gun. Strange problem! SpecOPS might be on to something with the bolt catch, although it seems unlikely that it would happen on both lowers. Their tech guy, Lon, is supposed to contact me on the problem. I'm not going to bash TecSol on this yet - it's only fair to give them a shot or two at getting it running. I like this unit because it is a perfect match for my DPMS .223 M4. I have a Spike's upper coming also, but it is a little different configuration. I plan to keep them both if everything works out.
Thanks for the tip Colt_sporter. I'm sure the parts kit would be handy. It sounds like the little e-clips can be an issue on these uppers. |
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Have you tryed different ammo in it? Is the 2 stage trigger a RRA? If so I've never seen one that isn't notched. Saturday I tried CCI Mini Mags, Federal Auto Match and the dreaded Remington Golden Bullets. Same results. My RRA has an RRA NM two stage trigger, but it does not have a notched hammer. I read elsewhere on this forum that RRA changed the hammer on their most recent models. I don't know this for a fact, but do know that mine is not notched. In fact, the hammer looks like a flat bar without even a spur on the upper rear of the hammer. I also tried this upper on my DPMS lower with the standard hammer/trigger with the same results. I still think that the problem is that the bolt is binding as it travels to the rear. When I have no magazine in place and pull the bolt carrier back, the bolt stays back. It won't return to battery unless I press on the forward assist button. (Sometimes 2 or 3 times before it releases.) Lon from TacSol is supposed to email me, but I haven't heard from him yet. I'm sure he'll get it working for me sooner or later. In the mean time, I'm glad I have one of your uppers on the way. I didn't order it direct - my dealer ordered it and it should arrive any day! |
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The newer RRA Hammers are not notched. It still sounds like it's the bolt catch but it could also be the bolt itself since it happens on 2 lowers. TacSol is a great company and will assist you in any way they can. I met some of them at Shot Show 08. They were in the same booth as Kevin and Black Dog Machine.
Good Luck and keep us posted on progress, SpecOps-13 |
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The newer RRA Hammers are not notched. It still sounds like it's the bolt catch but it could also be the bolt itself since it happens on 2 lowers. TacSol is a great company and will assist you in any way they can. I met some of them at Shot Show 08. They were in the same booth as Kevin and Black Dog Machine. Good Luck and keep us posted on progress, SpecOps-13 Thanks! I saw a drawing on another forum of a notched hammer and I'm posting it here. I modified the drawing to show what the new RRA NM hammers look like. Notched Hammer http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/rman43/NotchedHammer.jpg RRA NM Hammer http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/rman43/NMHammer.jpg |
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Quoted:
About a week ago I bought an M4 upper from Midway USA. I finally got it to the range yesterday. I put it on a RRA lower with a NM trigger. I tried it with Federal Bulk stuff from Wally World and Federal Auto Match. The good news...
It looks like it is going to be very accurate. There were no failures to feed, fire or eject. (On the 1st round) The bad news...
This thing is a single shot! It feeds the first round from the magazine, fires, ejects and feeds another round. It won't fire the 2nd round because it is not cocking the bolt. Something is causing the bolt to bind. Without a magazine in place, when I pull back the charging handle, the bolts stays to the rear. It won't go back into battery without pressing on the forward assist. Bummer! I sent TacSol an email this morning. I got a reply back asking if I'm using a notched hammer. (I'm not) They also suggested shooting it 'dry'. (I am) Sent them another email and hopefully I will get better info this time. This is a nice looking little unit. I hope they can get it going for me. When I check out a Ciener kit for feeding problems I assemble the conversion kit without the spring and guide rod to check if the bolt slides freely in the rails. Then I insert the conversion into the upper receiver along with the charge handle and check again that the bolt moves freely (still no spring or guide rod). Next cock the hammer, set the safety, and attach the upper and lower. Once again see if the bolt moves freely and doesn't drag across the bolt catch. You can also remove the follower from a magazine and insert the mag to see if the bolt is dragging on the magazine feed lips. A little searching will usually show you where your problem is. |
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When I check out a Ciener kit for feeding problems I assemble the conversion kit without the spring and guide rod to check if the bolt slides freely in the rails. Then I insert the conversion into the upper receiver along with the charge handle and check again that the bolt moves freely (still no spring or guide rod). Next cock the hammer, set the safety, and attach the upper and lower. Once again see if the bolt moves freely and doesn't drag across the bolt catch. You can also remove the follower from a magazine and insert the mag to see if the bolt is dragging on the magazine feed lips. A little searching will usually show you where your problem is. Sounds like a good way to trouble-shoot the problem. I'll give it a try tonight and thanks! |
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Just got this email at work this morning. Sounds like TacSols customer service is going to be good!
Tom, I would be curious about the date on the upper. There are some numbers by the TS logo. Would you please let me know what they are? Secondly, depending on the date I think we should be looking at your complete rifle in house. I would be willing to pay for the freight both ways and do a factory tune on our upper to your lower. Want to make this right for you. Best regards, Lon Tuttle Product Specialist [email protected] (866) 333-9901 I will get the numbers for him tonight and see how he wants to proceed. |
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Lon at TacSol sent an email offering to tune my rifle and pay the shipping both ways. I received another email from him with a prepaid shipping label. I packed up the rifle last night and I am sending it off this morning. IMO that is great customer service! [/quote[
Yup Lon and TacSol customer service are great. And once you get the thing running you'll be grinning from ear to ear. |
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Rman43, It is not normal for us to have issues with our product. But when we do we try our very best to make every effort to correct it. Thank you for your patience. We will get you up and running in no time. I certainly believe that and I appreciate your prompt customer service. I'm not one to bash manufacturers on this or any other forum. I have been very lucky over my lifetime. I have bought many, many guns from a wide assortment of manufacturers and nearly all have exceeded my expectations. I have had very few that had to be returned to the factory. I figure I'm probably overdue! I understand that any gun maker can have isolated problems and because your uppers are installed on such a wide variety of lowers, it compounds the problem greatly. Again, I appreciate your efforts to correct this.
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Man, that's absolutely first rate customer service. They're are only a few companies that react so fast and right to the point.
I'm really hoping the deal goes through with the special upper that TacSol may be offering ARFCOM-ers. They really deserve a serious look. I'm hoping to put that upper against the Lothar Walther that I'm still in the process of testing. From all indications, it should be a very tight comparison. Regards, SpecOps-13 |
| Have no fears they will make it right. I had to send them my complete rifle. That is above and beyond considering my lower isn't there problem. Come to find out the hammer was rubbing the bolt rails. That is what they said and sent it back. Now the thing eats everything suppressed unsuppressed it doesn't matter. Just NEVER use Rem. Golden Bullets. Lon said they are crap in ar uppers. |
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Man, that's absolutely first rate customer service. They're are only a few companies that react so fast and right to the point. I'm really hoping the deal goes through with the special upper that TacSol may be offering ARFCOM-ers. They really deserve a serious look. I'm hoping to put that upper against the Lothar Walther that I'm still in the process of testing. From all indications, it should be a very tight comparison. Regards, SpecOps-13 That ARFCOM upper sounds interesting! I saw another thread about one with an SBX barrel. Is that the one you were talking about? |
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Have no fears they will make it right. I had to send them my complete rifle. That is above and beyond considering my lower isn't there problem. Come to find out the hammer was rubbing the bolt rails. That is what they said and sent it back. Now the thing eats everything suppressed unsuppressed it doesn't matter. Just NEVER use Rem. Golden Bullets. Lon said they are crap in ar uppers. I think that could be my problem too. The new style NM hammer might have to go. I don't care - just want it to work. |
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I had a TacSol upper that was brought up for a Demo, and it was put on multiple lowers and ran like a champ. It never failed to fire and was 100% from the beginning. Before selling it I put it on my lower and demoed it again to the prospective buyer. What I did not mention to him was that I had never tried it on my lower and had not cleaned it since the Demo.
It ran so slick that he said that he saw all the he needed to see and handed over the $. I even had another loaded mag for him to try it with. When you get yours back I hope that you will develop the same confidence in them that I have. It is rare that a rimfire anything runs this well for me out of the box. It was making me wish that I had some sort of drum mag or the like because 27 rds was not enough. There is just something so solid feeling about how it runs compared to other guns in general, much less other rimfire guns and drop in conversion. |
| Dont get to excited. I sent mine to them because it was bursting like 12-15 rounds at a time and would finaly fire out of battery and split the case a it would be stuck in the chamber. got it back and it did the same thing. And yes I sent them my whole rifle. I sent them the upper back and got a refund. will never by from them agian. hope your luck is better than mine and I was using a rock river match trigger that was notched. |
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Dont get to excited. I sent mine to them because it was bursting like 12-15 rounds at a time and would finaly fire out of battery and split the case a it would be stuck in the chamber. got it back and it did the same thing. And yes I sent them my whole rifle. I sent them the upper back and got a refund. will never by from them agian. hope your luck is better than mine and I was using a rock river match trigger that was notched. Notched hammers are Bad mmmkay? They probably told you that. |
My experience shows that TacSol customer service is second to none. Lon@TacSol and other staffs took care of my upper and offered tuning up my lower with it, also shipping both way with fast turn around and clear communication. I tried the baby today, around 300rd Fed VP, no single hiccup. Told my story to shooting buddies and friends, they are all sold now .
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Quoted:
About a week ago I bought an M4 upper from Midway USA. I finally got it to the range yesterday. I put it on a RRA lower with a NM trigger. I tried it with Federal Bulk stuff from Wally World and Federal Auto Match. The good news...
It looks like it is going to be very accurate. There were no failures to feed, fire or eject. (On the 1st round) The bad news...
This thing is a single shot! It feeds the first round from the magazine, fires, ejects and feeds another round. It won't fire the 2nd round because it is not cocking the bolt. Something is causing the bolt to bind. Without a magazine in place, when I pull back the charging handle, the bolts stays to the rear. It won't go back into battery without pressing on the forward assist. Bummer! I sent TacSol an email this morning. I got a reply back asking if I'm using a notched hammer. (I'm not) They also suggested shooting it 'dry'. (I am) Sent them another email and hopefully I will get better info this time. This is a nice looking little unit. I hope they can get it going for me. If you r runing a gas buster CH, it wont run |
| UPS delivered my gun Monday morning. There wasn't any note in the case when I received it listing what work was done to it. I removed the bolt and examined it. Looks like they did some polishing on the bottom of the bolt and possibly the hammer face. They also added a metal washer at the rear of the recoil spring. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but tonight is the night. Look for a quickee range report tomorrow. |
| +1 for TacSol uppers and their service. Mine was a jam-o-matic right outta the box, fired out of battery a few times, finally squibbed one that I happened to catch before firing again. I emailed TacSol about it and without hesitation I got emails from not one but two TacSol folks. Long story short, they asked me to send the upper and my lower to them for repair and tune-up. And they sent me a prepaid shipping label. I got it back last week and put 200 rounds through it in one sitting without so much as a hiccup. Outstanding customer service. And a blast to shoot. |
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Got it back, shot 150 rounds without a hiccup and it's better than I hoped it would be!
See Quickie range report: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=462455 |
| Nice looking little carbine. Facog or real? I like the MOE hand guards along with the rest of the Magpul kit. Glad it ran better for you . I tried a TacSol upper for the first time last weekend. I was shooting my Colt 6920 with Ciener kit and another shooter came up and asked me to compare it to his Rock River/Tac Sol dedicated upper. The TacSol was obviously much more accurate than my Ciener kit in a 1/7 barrel, but had some failures to feed/eject. I attributed this to the Rock River match trigger/hammer combo. I have had my Ciener kit for over 10 years and run it in several AR's. It has never malfunctioned, jammed, or given me problems as long as I don't feed it Remmy Golden Bullet ammo. I really want a dedicated upper after seeing the accuracy potential, but hate to give up the reliability of my conversion kit. Also, after reading all the horror stories about notched hammers I looked at the two hammers on my 5.56 ArR's. They are slightly different, but have never caused any hang-ups with the Ciener kit. I hope if I get a dedicated upper I don't have to change out my hammers. |
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Here are some pictures of the bolt and hammer after TacSol tuned the upper with the lower.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/rman43/100_0386_Mod.jpg Spacer added http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/rman43/100_0388_Mod.jpg http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/rman43/100_0391.jpg http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/rman43/100_0379.jpg |
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Quoted:
Just got this email at work this morning. Sounds like TacSols customer service is going to be good! Tom, I would be curious about the date on the upper. There are some numbers by the TS logo. Would you please let me know what they are? Secondly, depending on the date I think we should be looking at your complete rifle in house. I would be willing to pay for the freight both ways and do a factory tune on our upper to your lower. Want to make this right for you. Best regards, Lon Tuttle Product Specialist [email protected] That is Great Customer Service!!! I don't want to get into certain vendors in here but I spent a lot of $$$ sending one of my conversions back several times with out ever getting it to function. (866) 333-9901 I will get the numbers for him tonight and see how he wants to proceed. |
| I bought a CMMG 25 round and a Black Dog 15 round magazine and took the TacSol to the range again Saturday. I put 100 rounds of Federal Auto Match and 150 rounds of Federal Bulk through all 3 of my magazines without a hitch. I'm now up to 400 rounds without a malfunction of any kind. This thing is awesome! Now if I could just find an outdoor range where I could do some serious bench rest shooting, I'd be happy. I did manage to fire 2 50 round groups at the indoor range that were OK, but nothing to brag about. One was with Auto Match and the other was with Bulk ammo. Both measured about an inch and a half. Given the right conditions, ammo and a good bench, I think this thing has potentional. |
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=463980 heres a post I just posted.
Seems I have a RRA(not 100% if it is a RRA) any hows the hammer face has a small raised pad that seems to drag on the bolt not fully cocking hammer/trigger The pics suck but you can just make out the ridge as a lighter gray line + 100 on TS customer service. I have non warrenty related items being taken care of |
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