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Posted: 1/20/2006 8:05:20 AM EDT
Well, my much anticipated 9mm build was finally completed yesterday uon the arrival of my Hahn Dedicated 9mm Mag Block. I went to the range first thing this morning and had FTF's and FTE's repeatedly with both my Modified Uzi Mag and my Pro Mag. Only once did I have a double feed.
I shot only ~75 rounds and I'd say 60% of those had a malfunction of some kind. I saved a couple of casings and I'll try and get pictures up later today, but it appears as though the edge of the casings was getting caught on something and it would "tear" the casing back. Here are the overall specs: RRA 9mm Upper Hahn Dedicated 9mm Mag Block 1 Modified Uzi Mag and 1 Pro Mag 9mm Buffer 9mm Hammer Winchester White Box 9mm Ammo And I know that my system is designed to be used in conjunction with COLT mags, but I don't have $60 for a magazine right now. Yes I plan on getting at least one, but I am hoping for suggestions on how to fix my current setup. Any suggestions, help, etc. will be greatly appreciated!!  Oh yeah, and another small and unrelated issue....my trigger pin walked loose on me too!! Any quick fixes for this? 
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Posted: 1/20/2006 8:58:19 AM EDT
[#1]
Is this on the DPMS lower you have pictured in the Industry forum? You might try swapping lowers. I have a RRA 9mm with ALL RRA parts on a MEGA lower and it has been 100% with the same mags you have. Mine is a RRA mag block. You might be lucky and find someone local that would have a different mag block you could try.
As for the trigger pin walking, make sure the hammer spring arm is in the trigger pin relief cut. I do not like DPMS lower parts. |
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Posted: 1/20/2006 10:00:16 AM EDT
[#2]
Yes it is a DPMS lower receiver, but all the internals are RRA. It's a standard RRA LPK with the addition of a RRA 9mm hammer.
I'll have to double check and make sure the legs of the trigger spring are in the right place....I didn't think about that and they definately could have moved out of place when I switched to the 9mm hammer. Thanks for the input!
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Posted: 1/20/2006 12:18:53 PM EDT
[#3]
Check the extractor and the roll pin that holds it in place. I had the same problem and it turned out that this pin worked its way loose allowing the extractor to float in the bolt.
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Posted: 1/20/2006 12:56:20 PM EDT
[#4]
I'll second the above suggestion. If the extractor starts moving it usually gets driven deeper into the bolt so the rim of the cartridge can't get under the hook. The round will usually feed and fire, but then there's no pivot point for the ejector to work with and the casing doesn't get flipped clear of the action.
There seems to be a big batch of the lousy extractor pins out there. They move easily and then the extractor isn't held in the correct position any more. |
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Posted: 1/20/2006 3:11:55 PM EDT
[#5]
IF--- you own a RRA bolt, JOB #1 when you get the bolt in your hand is to knock out the piece of whatever is in the extractor roll pin hole (typicall a rolled up piece of soup can) and go to LOWES/Home Depot and get a std split type roll pin and install it.. |
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Posted: 1/20/2006 4:02:56 PM EDT
[#6]
Interesting...I'll have to look into this. Thanks!!
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Posted: 1/20/2006 6:46:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Alright, this is the first 9mm bolt I've ever looked at so could someone point me in the right direction for the extractor roll pin? I am showing my newbness here but I would appreciate the help.
Also, I tried to take some pics of the "torn" casings. I couldn't get a pic to turn out right but here is a blurred pic. The casing on the far right shows it the most.  I really hope I can get this fixed because I really think this will be a fun gun to shoot.
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Posted: 1/20/2006 7:15:27 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 1/20/2006 8:08:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Your picture looks like the case neck is being crushed. Is the bolt slamming into the case and capturing it in the ejection port?
I do not think this is an extractor problem. What buffer spring are you using? By chance do you have some kind of a spacer in your buffer tube that is causing the buffer to bottom out early? You said you have the RRA 9mm buffer. Is it gray in color and does it feel heavier than the standard carbine buffer? Your picture looks like a collapsible stock, is it collapsible with the shorter tube or does it have a full length buffer tube? I thing your rifle is short stroking, not letting the empties clear the ejection port and the bolt is not going far enough rearward to pick up the next round. Need more info. I did make a mistake. If the case is falling from the extractor before the ejector can flip the empty out, that can also give you jams like you show. I guess it could be an extractor problem. |
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Posted: 1/20/2006 8:38:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Thanks for the replys everyone. I will look at my bolt and try to find the extractor roll pin.....thanks for the detailed description on where to find it!!
Also I'll try and figure out my wife's camera so I can take better pictures. As for the buffer and buffer tube: RRA 9mm buffer from ADCO........Black in color. Looks just like the picture on ADCO's website. No spacer and it is a carbine length tube. I will check into all the suggestions that have been made and I welcome any others you may have. Unfortunately I probably won't make it back out to the range until next week at the absolute earliest. I really hope this gets straightened out!! Thanks again!
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Posted: 1/20/2006 10:29:09 PM EDT
[#11]
I had the walking extractor pin issue with my RRA bolt causing FTE until the pin was replaced. As matter of fact, the bolt weight retaining roll pin was walking out as well and had to have it replaced.
It looks like the rim of the mouth of the casing was getting caught at the front edge of the feed ramp suggesting the tips of the rounds are sitting low off the feed lips of the mag. If you look at the Promags head on, you'll notice the inner edges of the feed lips are square. Take out the mag spring and follower. Then, use an exacto knife and shave off the square edges of the lips. This will allow the rounds to sit higher at the top of the mag in order to clear the front edge of the ramp. |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 4:22:33 AM EDT
[#12]
Tag for fixes I hope I don't need when the rest of my parts come in.
Bomber |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 6:00:52 AM EDT
[#13]
Yeah, I was thinking about this as well. I've read where someone (maybe you?) had done this modification to promags to help with feeding. I actually sat down last night and did this exact thing. I won't be able to make it out to the range until next week and I don't want to shave off too much so I just did a little. I will take a knife with me to the range and do a little bit at a time until they feed better. Thanks again for all the wonderful suggestions. I'm confident that between the mag fixes and the extractor fixes my rifle should start running fine after some tweaking!! Thanks again!
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Posted: 1/21/2006 10:56:45 AM EDT
[#14]
No, it was Tomster who suggested the modification HERE complete with photo. Though, I think he used a dremel to thin out the lips. I believe you can be more precise with an exacto knife. As you said, take off a bit at a time since once it's off you can't put it back on. |
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Posted: 1/21/2006 12:45:13 PM EDT
[#15]
Yep, that's the thread. Hopefully one or a combination of the suggestions made here will get my 9mm running properly.
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Posted: 1/21/2006 4:25:31 PM EDT
[#16]
Yeah, you'll get it running smoothly. Then, you'll have to change the title of this thread to bang-bang-bang..... bolt lock back- eject empty mag- insert loaded mag- slap the bolt release- and bang-bang-bang..... and repeat over and over again like the Energizer bunny.
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Posted: 1/21/2006 4:30:49 PM EDT
[#17]
I sure hope so!! Just from the little bit of shooting that I got done with it, I can already tell that this is going to be one fun rifle!!
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Posted: 1/21/2006 4:46:42 PM EDT
[#18]
You will. I went through the same thing just a few weeks ago and was forced to learn the ins and outs of the 9mm platform. The good news is that you have all the right and quality parts in place (well, except the mags- LOL!) to get it running right. Just hang in there and keep tinker with it. Once you get it going right, you'll forget all the crap you had to go through and learn how to cope with a sore trigger finger. It's not hard to run through 300 rounds of 9mm in a single shooting session. |
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Posted: 1/22/2006 4:55:40 PM EDT
[#19]
I just shot my 9mm build today for the first time, and it all seemed to work pretty well except for a few FTFeed issues. I was using a Bushmaster lower w/ 9mm hammer and a RRA upper and magblock, modified UZI mag and a Promag. I think I needed to tighten up the magblock a little because it seems to adjust itself down in the magwell after I pull out the mag - which I believe cause a couple of the FTFeeds.
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Posted: 1/22/2006 6:03:36 PM EDT
[#20]
What kind of ammo were you using? I'm hopefully going to get my hands on a couple COLT mags to try out next time I go so I can see if that fixes the problem. I'm glad yours is running well for you!
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Posted: 1/22/2006 6:17:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Winchester White Box - 100 round value packs from Wally World. I hope to fool w/ it more as the weather starts to warm up.
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Posted: 1/24/2006 5:02:56 PM EDT
[#22]
Longhorn, when and are you going to go shooting? I'm in Round Rock and just bought a Colt 6450. If you want to hook up your welcome to try out my Colt mags to see if that is the issue.
Only problem is it is supposed to rain all weekend starting Thursday. I was thinking about going tomorrow to the range in Manor around 4:30 to see how it shoots. email me if your interested. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 12:41:29 PM EDT
[#23]
*****UPDATE*****
Alright, I finally got back out to shoot today. First off, I've since bought one COLT 32 round mag to try it out. Today I started with the COLT mag and I had probably 5 FTE's. But, the bright side is there were no FTF's other than those caused by the FTE's getting in the way. I then tried the Modified Uzi mag. It had probably 5 FTE's as well. Same scenario as above, but since it has only 25 round the percent failure was higher than with the COLT mag. Finally I ran my Pro Mag. Only one FTE!! I was quite pleased with that. Ii dd shoot these rounds very slowly. So, what should I look for now to try and fix these FTE's? I've looked into all the previous suggestions and everything looked okay. I did some slight mods to the feed lips of the Uzi and Pro Mag and they are feeding now. I just don't know where to go with the FTE's. I didn't have much time to play around with it today but I am hoping to get back out there either tomorrow or Monday. Once again, any and all suggestions are welcome!
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Posted: 2/5/2006 5:02:45 AM EDT
[#24]
Longhorn,
Glad it's working a little better. I'm not sure what to tell you about the FTEs. |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 9:10:35 AM EDT
[#25]
I have no idea how to tell you to fix it, but can tell you I have the exact same setup with NO problems whatsoever. I shot all kinds of ammo from different mags, and the only issue my rig had was with the blazer aluminum cased. Good luck, I hope you find your problem, but it is not intrinsic to the setup that you have.
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Posted: 2/5/2006 1:51:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Longhorn, is that FTE as in FTExtract or FTEject?
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Posted: 2/5/2006 4:38:25 PM EDT
[#27]
It's pulling the empty case out of the chamber but it's not throwing it out. I noticed that on some shots the case goes flying at approximately a 3 o'clock direction about 8 feet away. Then another shot the case goes at a 2 o'clock direction and it hits the ground about 2 feet from my feet. The failures are usually stopping the bolt from going all the way into battery........but it will begin to strip the next round so when I clear it I have to clear both the empty case and the next round which was stripped from the mag but didn't make it into battery due to the empty case. I hope this all makes sense. Is this a problem I need to discuss with the manufacturer of the upper, the mag block, or neither (just fix it myself)?
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Posted: 2/5/2006 5:30:49 PM EDT
[#28]
Did you ever check the extractor roll pin as suggested on page 1 to make sure that it didn't back out of place? What you are describing is exactly the same as the FTE issue I had. For me, the cause was a loose extractor pin. I called RRA and ask them to send me a new pin. However, they insisted on having the entire bolt sent to them for a confirmation of my diagnose. Since I got it back (with both the extractor pin and bolt weight pin replaced), it's been running fine.
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Posted: 2/5/2006 5:44:05 PM EDT
[#29]
I looked at it and it apeared fine. But I must admit that I am very new to the whole AR platform in general and this is the first 9mm AR that I've ever even handled. I'll double check the extractor roll pin. I plan on going out one more time this week and if the problems persist then I'll contact RRA and see where to go from here. I really appreciate your help and sugestions Orange_Neck......and I really appreciate you taking the time to read my posts and follow up on them!! That is what makes this site so great!! |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 6:48:27 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 2/5/2006 7:28:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Great picture and description!! I just checked my bolt and it looks just like yours in that picture. The pin is flush with the opening. The extractor seems to be fine....it doesn't look like it's moved back at all. Does the fact that some of the casings are not ejecting quite as far and at a different angle say anything? Also, the last mag (Pro Mag) I took my time and shot every 3 seconds or so and it only had one FTE during the first few rounds which I was shooting a little faster......with the slower rate of fire it did fine. Is this coincidence or does this say something? Thanks again, I really appreciate it.
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Posted: 2/6/2006 10:19:56 AM EDT
[#33]
With the empties being pulled from the chamber it seems the extractor is working. The ejector that is on the mag block is always there (fixed) so it should be working.
I wonder if it is a bolt speed problem. Something is impeeding the rapid rearward travel of the bolt. The distance the ejected cases fly is a result of how fast they are hitting the ejector. 9mm's work on recoil so it is not a gas key problem. If they fall from the bolt face before they can contact the ejector at the speed the bolt is traveling, they will non spit out of the action properly eithor. I hate to say it, but you might try your original buffer. It is lighter so the bolt should move faster. Also look for rub marks in the buffer tube and the receiver where the bolt rides. I know it is bad that you can't just step out into your back yard and try things. I believe you have two rifles so I would try swapping uppers , mag block, and hammer. I think your picture showed a full size stock on the other gun, so use the standard buffer that it has. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 2:01:26 PM EDT
[#34]
My other AR is a RRA 16" carbine. I can try the buffer from it ans see what happens. Now about the ejector.....Should it be completely fixed with absolutely no movement? I ask because it does have a little bit of play in it. It doesn't really "move" but it does "jiggle" a bit. My last range trip was very short (just once through each mag). Hopefully I'll be able to it the range again later this week and really try it out and try some of the different things you guys have been mentioning. I appreciate the help and I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I'm getting really frustrated reading other threads saying their 9mm ran 100% the first time out and they love it so much!! Nothing against them, I'm happy for them, just pure ol' jealosy! 
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Posted: 2/6/2006 2:02:55 PM EDT
[#35]
I just went back and read this post and saw that it answered one of my questions above about the ejector moving a little. So I guess that's not it. I'll look for wear marks on it.
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Posted: 2/6/2006 3:46:20 PM EDT
[#36]
GS1000SN brought up some good points. I did think about the interaction among the bolt, buffer and action spring affecting the bolt speed. However, remembering that in his initial post and many that followed it, LongHorn mentioned that the bolt traveled rearward enough to strip a fresh round off the mag to attempt to chamber it. If the bolt comes back that far, surely the spent shell would have contacted the ejector at that point.
I still think something is causing the spent brass to be dropped in the receiver before it contacts the ejector and the bolt continues rearward and strip off a fresh round causing a jam upon chambering. The million dollar question is- why is it being dropped??? Don't I wish there is a high-speed cam to capture the action..... ETA: If the bolt speed was too low to fling the spent shell out, I would think some of empties would get caught between the portside of the bolt face and the front edge ejection port of the receiver (suggesting that there was some contact with the ejector and a feeble attempt was done to eject the empty shell) and not all jammed between the top of the bolt and the inside top surface of the receiver. |
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Posted: 2/6/2006 4:43:59 PM EDT
[#37]
I definately think this is the right idea here. I think that after my next range trip if the problems persist then I will contact RRA and tell them my story and see what they suggest I do.
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Posted: 2/7/2006 4:32:18 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
With the empties being pulled from the chamber it seems the extractor is working. Unfortunately, the fact that the shells are coming out of the chamber doesn't mean anything in a straight blowback action. You could remove the extractor entirely and they would still come out of the chamber, as the casing being blown to the rear is what's powering the whole system. 9mm ammo can have different rim thicknesses and sometimes the extractor will not allow the ammo to slip under the hook and be firmly held to provide the pivot point that it needs to be flipped out of the ejection port. Take the bolt out of the rifle and try fitting some of your ammo (several different rounds) into the bolt face by hand. See if the rim snaps all the way under the hook of the extractor and try to push the casing sideways out of engagement from under the hook. It should be held pretty firmly. If it isn't, that's your problem. You need to open up the hook of the extractor a bit or replace it. Also check to be sure the tip of the ejector is riding as close to the center of the bolt face as possible without actually dragging on the bolt. If it's flopping around, it may not be hitting the rim of the casing. I assume Hahn had a reason for leaving their ejectors a bit loose, but I don't think it's a good idea. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 5:09:49 AM EDT
[#39]
Yeah, I did try this with one casing...but I didn't try several. I'll check it out. I'll also look closely at the ejector and see where it is. I hope to get back out to the range later this week if time allows and I will look into all of the suggestions that have been made. Thanks again!
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Posted: 2/7/2006 7:57:40 AM EDT
[#40]
Like mentioned above, with the 9mm blow back action, the extractor does not have to pull the case from the chamber. Have you hand cycled the action to see if the cases are pulled from the chamber or are they being blown back? Put rifle on "safe" before doing this.
This might show if the cases are or are not being picked up by the extractor. Not the same as shooting, but if the extractor is not hooking the cases it might show up. I would keep the muzzle down so gravity will make the cases stay in the chamber or fall off if the extractor is not working (safer also). You may have already tried this but it would be a test you could do at home. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 8:05:12 AM EDT
[#41]
I will definately try this. I thought about doing this before but I'm hesitant because I had a slam fire once with a different type of rifle (thank goodness I was being safe and the round went down range safely) but I live in an apartment and the thought of a round firing (even into the floor, I'm on the top floor) scares me too much. I'll do this at the range when I go.
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Posted: 2/7/2006 9:17:45 AM EDT
[#42]
Just remove the firing pin from the bolt and try it. |
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Posted: 2/7/2006 10:52:23 AM EDT
[#43]
You sir, are a genious!! I can't believe I didn't think of that myself....I swear I'm not an idiot. 
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