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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 10mm AR (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/8/2005 7:59:00 PM EDT
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Do they exist? If so, what mag block, mags etc... do you need to build one? TIA |
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If I wanted to SBR it then, I would have to send the barrel off to get it cut down and rethreaded correct? Maybe you guys can help me bring my ultimate subgun fantasy into fruition... I want the following: 1. 7.5-9" barrel with a FH (type, don't care) 2. Free Float tube w/ rails (I think Oly makes a FIRSH for pistol uppers) 3. 10mm caliber ( the ultimate would be for the lower to accept Glock 20 mags, but any reliable ones will do) 4. Magpul or Vltor stock 5. A3 upper w/ EOtech 551 6. Mag block allows bolt catch 7. Troy folding BUISs 8. Single point sling 9. TD vert grip What do you guys think of that!? I know where to get the accessories, but does anyone make a barrel like that? Jack, the CavArms lower I presume is going to be a one piece plastic w/ a fixed stock right? |
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Correct on the barrel threading and Cav Arms cnfiguration. 1. 10-12" would be better--10mm can be quite powerful from longer barrels. 2. FIRSH sucks. Do you want a rail or just a tube? I suggest a DD or LaRue rail or a Hyperform CF tube. 3. Actually, Olympic makes a pistol caliber system that uses pistol mags, but I don't know if it takes G20 mags. 4. Try before you buy. I had VLTOR and bought magpul to replace it. Sounds like a very, very nice setup. |
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I would definately want a railed foreend, do the companies you listed make them smaller than carbine length? I know the longer barrel would a little better, but I am looking for someting extremely compact. Double-Taps' ammo runs in the 700 + ft/lbs out of a G-20 barrel so I think the extra 1.5" or two would only give better ballitstics of coarse...and that number is good enough for me. I did not see on Oly's website under the "Glock ARs" a 10mm; however I do believe it is only a matter of time. |
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Olympic could probably fab something up that works. If you call them and talk to them they might prototype it and sell the first to you. Olympic makes the only ultrashort handguard that I know of, but any of them could be cut down. I suggest you skip the front sight base and mount a folding sight right to the float tube. Olympics FIRSH is poorly constructed, compared to others. |
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Olympic could easily cut barrel down to length you want. FIRSH would work fine and works very well for the money. I have them on a bunch of guns that I personally own and for the money they are excellent. I will kndly disagree with "Combat_Jack" on this. Oly does not have any plans to make a .45ACP/10mm Glock magazine systems. Magazines are too thick for those 2 calibers. Oly can easily cut down the barrel, thread it and attach a flash hider to short barrel for a small additional fee. Oh yes, I personally own a 10mm Oly rifle, so speak from experience. mark |
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Well Budam tell me about it...how do you like it, reliability, accuracy, velocity (if you know), etc... I know the magazine has a welded on peice inorder to work in a standard magwell but what kind of magazine is used. And these magazines, do they have the same manal of arms as normal, ie Bolt hold open on last round and normal mag release? How much do the mags cost? |
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Mags are Uzi mags in .41 AE. They hold 20 rounds. The magazines are quite expensive, btw. The mag catch works like on a 5.56. I'm not certain about a bolt hold open on the 10 uppers. I don't believe they have one, as the mags were designed to work in an open bolt SMG. You'll have to wait for Budam to get back here on that one. I respect Budams opinion, but I still reccomend against the FIRSH. It is heavy and bulky compared to the DD or KAC rail, some have been out of spec (ARMS products don't always fit--personal experience of mine) and the locking system is inferior. However, if budget is a major concerrn, a DD rail costs $150-$250 more. At least the DD comes with panels, the FIRSH my buddy got wouldn't have come with panels if he didn't work at OAI and get perrmission from his boss to take a handful home with him. I also reccomend a full carbine length rail, as it is more versatile, and prevents burns better (not sure how hot 10mm's get though). The carbine FIRSH is very short and it limits your mounting options. |
Lol, I know the feeling. If/when you order it, specifically ask for Steve Hausmann to do the work. His work is A++. trust me, there are a lot of guys there that are lucky to even be eligible to own firearms.  |
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My Oly 10mm is great! No, the bolt does NOT hold open after the last shot. Also, while there is a forward assist on the upper... it's for looks only. The action is blowback so there is no gas port or gas block needed which should work very well for what you have planned. Another interesting fact, you can remove the barrel without a barrel vise or action block... the barrel has a flat spot in front of the barrel nut, so an adjustable wrench and a GI barrel nut wrench are all you need. Kind of a nice feature. Here's what I did with mine (A3 upper)... I removed the front sight base, took a $35 knurled free float tube and hacked it off about the same length as a YHM specter tube, added a Bushnell red-dot sight, an Ace skeleton stock, a Hogue grip, and a single point sling. I get a lot of "damn, that's cool" when shooting it! You will hear negative things about the ejector... I have heard the older ones broke easily. I have several thousand rounds through mine and it works perfectly. In fact, the ejector works so well the brass flies about 20-30 feet! As you've heard, the only downside is the mags.... Scot |
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I am just thinking screw it now, I guess I can settle for the 40 that uses Glock mags. I t would be cheaper over all. Has anyone seen any 30 round mags for the G22? Worst case scenario I could use the 15 rounders and put a 6 round extension on, cause I have seen those. I wonder what kind of velocities we are looking at out of a 7.5" barrel? Probably not too much more. |
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Sorry, no digital camera...no pics. Mine has the standard 16" barrel with flash-hider. Velocities with 180 gr bullets run about 1700 FPS. As for the .40 S&W, it's pretty close to 10mm performance with lighter bullets in a pistol, but with the bigger 10 brass and a rifle barrel, you see a good performance boost when loading with slower burning powders (I use alot of blue dot) in the 10. The 10 is also a much better cartridge with the heavier 180 and 200 grain bullets. I've taken my 10mm deer hunting (no luck yet!)... I don't think I'd trust a .40. I did shoot a big raccoon that was terrorizing our cabin with a 180 gr xtp (11 gr blue dot)... blew out a chunk the size of your fist coming out. There is a website (can't think of it offhand) where a guy blasts a ham with his 10mm AR... amazing destruction! On the other hand, an Oly .40 would probably work well with a KKF mag-well block and sten mags. Either way, they are FUN... unlike a 5.56, you can blast metal plates / spinners or bowling pins without destroying them. Scot |
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Oh btw, The Oly system uses a conventional type extractor (not a 5.56 one, of course). It's the EJECTOR that draws some criticizm... it's a wound "spring" mounted in the upper. Like I said, mine works great... it seems better engineered to me than Colt's "Shit, we forgot the ejector... quick, add a piece of metal to the mag-well block." That should draw some flames. Scot |
I have shot many thousands of rounds through it (its about 15 years old) and never had a problem... I have shot 75 yards withotu a problem... I have not measured veolocity, but others have. Check archive. .41AE Uzi magazine. No last round open, just like MP5. Uses normal magazine release. Magazines from Olympic are $65.00 each. mark |
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I am thinking extremely screw it now, and am just probably going to get the 9mm Glock one. I have read too many things about Sherer mags to trust them in the 40. Glock 18 mags are relatively cheap and plentiful, not to mention 9mm is alot cheaper to shoot, so I think that would be a more prudent choice. I am assuming it is no problem to shoot +P in the 9mm AR system so does anyone know what kind of velocities we would be lookin at? |
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Blow back- now. When I first got mine, they were blowback with a piston system thus no shitting where it eats. Very low recoil & wide range of loads worked flawlessly. Unfortunatly, the carrier key was custom built and only lasted about 2000 rounds on mine. Oly said I could wait until they got around to trying to come up with one (4-6 mo?) or have a new blowback tomorrow. I caved. Figgured the new system would be more reliable & maitainable. I haven't rung it out yet, so I don't know how it compairs to my old one. I put it on a Superior Arms pistol lower- gonna get some tail with it (whitetail- leagal in Iowa w/ a 10mm handgun.) |
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10mmman, Thanks for the info you posted about the Oly 10mm being a blow-back -- maybe you could give me some more info? I'm trying to figure out how Oly handles the power of the 10mm in a blow-back system. Is the bolt built extra heavy? You said you had it on a pistol lower -- I've seen them but don't know how they function compared to a rifle or carbine. I have a .357sig carbine built on the Colt system and it works great but I had to go to a 7.9 oz. carbine buffer to handle something like the Federal Premium Hydra shok 357sig which is a real banger. I wanted to do the same in a larger diameter, more powerful round like the 10mm and need an idea how Oly handles the power. I hope you don't mind my questions. Thanks for any input, (AR-fan) |
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Olympic uses a much heavier bolt carrier (on purpose!) so a heavier buffer is not needed. I use a standard rifle buffer in mine (with an Ace ARFX stock) and it works well. Recoil is more than a 5.56, I like having the 1/2" rubber buttpad on mine. Believe it or not, after a few hundred rounds it can start to hurt. Scot |
You don't know much about firearms design if you honestly think that a fixed ejector is inferior to that spring thing. |
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Quietshootr... I said that mostly as a joke (thus the flame reference). Actually, I've never even SEEN a 9mm Colt style AR "in person". I have an Oly and I know a couple other people that have Oly's too. One thing I like about the Olympic ejector is... it's like most other AR parts... able to be easily replaced. It's going to either work or break, and like most other AR parts / springs, I have a spare! Is the fixed Colt 9mm ejector easily replaced if worn or broken (I have no idea)? Scot ETA - Of course you are right, I checked ejectors on a few toys I have (yes, that does mean I need to get a life) fixed ejectors - (including some of the all-time great battle guns!) Mauser K98, FAL, AK, Colt 1911A1, Uzi Model B, Springfield XD, S&W 1006 (I'm sure some 10mm fans are drooling over that one!) Plunger type ejectors - 4 ARs, M1 Garand, Weatherby Mark V - hmmm, food for thought "Spring thing" ejector - 1 Olympic 10mm AR |
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Here's data that I have. I just cut & pasted what I had so there's probably more crap than what you need. FWIW The keys on the 10mm and 40S&W bolts were cut down for whatever reason - the long tube portion was cut off. The 9mm and 45 had std keys on them. Also, the 10mm & 40 had large set screws in them to fill the rear portion while the 9mm & 45 had slugs that were cross pinned. Trigger slap was reported with this 10mm bolt in a 10" barrell. No indication of this w/ the other calibers. Would've been interesting to swap the 10mm bolt into the 45acp carrier and see if the trigger slap went away. The 10mm ammo was a weird handload with really fast powder which was loaded for a Glock 20 w/ the hybrid barrel. The ammo was meant to develop full velocity prior to the bullet passing the ports so there's a pretty good chance the trigger slap was due to the ammo. Seems to me that all these should be run with at least a heavy buffer. Bolt weights: 45 acp – 16.3 oz w/ full key 10mm – 15.5 oz w/ half key 40S&W – 15.7 oz w/ half key 9mm – 16.1 oz w/ full key |
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Thanks a bunch usamark! I'll compare the weights to the bolt that I have for the .357sig which was originally a 9mm bolt but had the face opened up to the rim size of the .357sig/.40 S&W rim. I'll try an alternative magazine that I have which fits the AR magwell and will accept the 10mm rounds. I don't want to order a barrel just yet -- I want to be sure that all the other parts work first. I don't want to end up with a very expensive shorty bean pole |
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My 10mm bolt/carrier weighted 15.4 ounces on our digital scale at work. I find it odd the 10mm is the most powerful cartridge of the four, yet the bolt is the lightest? That seems a little backwards to me...hmm. I ALSO noticed the weight of the bolt/carrier seems inversely proportional to the cartridges' operating pressures... i.e. heaviest bolt - 45 acp with the lowest operating pressure (17,000cup) and lightest bolt - 10mm with the highest operating pressure (36,000 psi). Scot |
| Shal1, that is strange but I've seen this in a couple of cases where the cartridge case was straight and long and it seems the pressure kinda locks it in the chamber for a bit before it can start to move to the rear. The 9mm has a slight taper from the neck to the base so it pops loose, the 45 acp is also tapered so it also will kinda pop loose -- of course the bullet weight, chamber pressure etc. will dictate how much weight in a combination of bolt and buffer will be required. the 10mm is the same measurement at the neck and the base so it's kinda locked in till the pressure drops enough to allow it to slide to the rear. The Russians used the straight case design on their 9mm makarov to retard the cartridge movement. I would have never thought about it till you guys showed that the bolt/buffer weight was actually less with the 10mm. I checked the specs on the 10mm case and found it is .423" at the neck and .423" at the base -- the rim is .424" but that's not involved. |
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It could also be something as dum as manufacturing changes. Here's a pic of the four bolts. Both the 40 & 10mm are constructed the same way...socket head set screw filler in the ass end and chopped keys. The 40 also lacks the cuts to form the rails. Maybe the slugs that are cross pinned in the 9 and 45 bolts just weigh more? 
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| I weighed my .357sig bolt and it runs just a hair over 15oz. If the Oly 10mm can run with a 15.5oz bolt and the standard full size buffer I think I would start (in my carbine length buffer tube) with my extra heavy buffer (7.9oz.) then the 9mm buffer, then my H buffer. I hope I can find a nice smooth operator along the way. |
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AR-Fan, I was thinking that same thing... the 10mm being a high pressure cartridge would "stick" in the chamber longer than a lower pressure cartridge. That Oly bolt pic is cool... My 10mm carrier has no "grooves" for the forward assist (not that I've ever needed it), and my key is just flat... not a chopped 5.56 one. I suppose Oly has changed the manufacturing process somewhat... It's also cool seeing a long thread on the BEST AR pistol caliber! Scot |
Shal1,  I agree with you -- for a long time I've thought a 10mm AR would be a great pistol caliber rifle -- lots of power and a large diameter heavy bullet. First, I needed to see if there was an alternative to the Uzi .41AE mags so I wouldn't need to take out a loan for mags. I will get some ammo shipped in soon and start on the mag work -- and I need to get to work saving up some barrel money. |
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OK, I have a bunch of new Oly 9mm/.40S&W BCA... I just got a new .45acp upper in used its stats. Here are some stats based upon 15+ bolt carrier assemblies (new unused). 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP FA bolt carrier assemblies 15.5-15.6 ounces. 9mm/.40S&W SA bolt carrier assemblies 15.4-15.5 ounces. All new BCA do not have the forward assists cuts on them. The new key is just a small hunk of metal, no .223 key cut down. All have the allen wrench key weighted slug at rear of BCA. Olympic has heavy weight buffer if you want $35 if I remember correctly. mark |
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Mark, Do you know what the heavy buffer is or weighs? I have the "H" buffer, the 9mm buffer and a extra heavy buffer from SAW Sales that weighs 7.9 oz. A carbine buffer that might weigh more than the SAW Sales just might be a good one just to have -- just in case it's needed. |
Which mags are those? |
UZI .41AE |
Where does one find these, I have done some extensive searching and found ZIPPO .... 
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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 10mm AR (Page 1 of 2)
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