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Posted: 10/9/2017 12:27:36 AM EDT
It has been said here many times, but I tried a few years back and didn't even know it was an issue.
 Attached FileI put a brake on this gun using a peel washer instead of shims and used a clamshell style vice block to do it. Two things that aren't great ideas. The symptom: thing shot horrible groups. BCM upper, Larue stealth barrel, g rail, g trigger, by all counts it should have been a tack driver but nope. Made 4-6 inch groups at 100 yards regardless of ammo. I tried different scopes and mounts too. Finally had enough and took it apart. Index pin was fubar, upper is beat to hell and cracked. I robbed an upper receiver off a different gun, reassembled with with a 51t brake (shimmed properly) and went shooting. I'm pleased to say it shoots better than me now. 
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Posted: 10/9/2017 6:11:42 AM EDT
[#1]
And people still chance it.
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Posted: 10/9/2017 6:23:47 AM EDT
[#2]
barrel blocks and a cheap harbor freight vise are cheap insurance.
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Posted: 10/9/2017 10:12:11 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And people still chance it. |
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Posted: 10/9/2017 10:16:50 AM EDT
[#4]
It may shoot like shit, but at least it doesn't have galling marks from the aluminum barrel blocks!
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Posted: 10/9/2017 10:18:38 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
barrel blocks and a cheap harbor freight vise are cheap insurance. 
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Posted: 10/9/2017 10:31:44 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"I thought it could never happen to me" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And people still chance it.
I run into alot of guys who do it even forewarned. Oak block with the appropriate sized hole drilled in it/split with a bandsaw and voila! Bbl blocks! I've learned alot of shit the hard way. 
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Posted: 10/9/2017 10:32:15 AM EDT
[#7]
I have broken a couple barrel wrenches. I have never damaged an upper receiver.
Some people could break a bowling ball. |
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Posted: 10/9/2017 10:41:27 AM EDT
[#8]
There’s nothing wrong with peel washers. I use them.
When joining any threaded parts you hold one of the threaded parts and turn the other. |
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Posted: 10/9/2017 11:43:17 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are the reaction rod devices worth trying? I’m to the point with my lead jaw liners they need replaced. Only got 10 years out of them |
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Posted: 10/9/2017 12:16:42 PM EDT
[#10]
I began using a Magpul BEV Block after purchasing a couple of billet receivers. So far it works well and keeps everything lined up.
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Posted: 10/9/2017 5:40:55 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are the reaction rod devices worth trying? I’m to the point with my lead jaw liners they need replaced. Only got 10 years out of them |
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Posted: 10/10/2017 12:21:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
barrel blocks and a cheap harbor freight vise are cheap insurance. |
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Posted: 10/11/2017 2:38:58 PM EDT
[#13]
I have a reaction rod now, it's seen a lot of.use from me and my friends. It is pricey but three of us went in on one. It will outlive all of us and our great grand children.
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Posted: 10/12/2017 1:10:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
get the Windham Weaponry barreling jig instead. |
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Posted: 10/12/2017 3:01:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would be good if they existed, as a product for sale to consumers at least. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
get the Windham Weaponry barreling jig instead.
You need to get caught up. > https://www.ar15.com/forums/industry/Windham-Weaponry-upper-assembly-jig-/489-254215/&page=2 |
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Posted: 10/12/2017 3:57:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They do, I own one finally.
You need to get caught up. > https://www.ar15.com/forums/industry/Windham-Weaponry-upper-assembly-jig-/489-254215/&page=2 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
get the Windham Weaponry barreling jig instead.
You need to get caught up. > https://www.ar15.com/forums/industry/Windham-Weaponry-upper-assembly-jig-/489-254215/&page=2 |
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Posted: 10/12/2017 4:05:01 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are the reaction rod devices worth trying? I’m to the point with my lead jaw liners they need replaced. Only got 10 years out of them Arnzen Arms sell reaction rods for around $75 delivered and they are every bit as good and well made as any other brand named model. |
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Posted: 10/12/2017 4:41:34 PM EDT
[#18]
I confess... I took the muzzle brake off a AR just using the flats on the end of the muzzle device.
my son's AR shot for shit since day one, but it could be cheap ammo, or bad optic. It is a Mossberg AR which the reviews said were shooting tight groups. How would I check to see if I've loosed the bbl from extension, or if the muzzle nut is loose or if I've somehow FUBARed the old bbl / Receiver? Guess I'd have to strip off the free float handguard? I picked up a new Melonited bbl a long whiles back that I was planning to mount for him soon anyway, but would like the experts opinions on what to check and how to check... |
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Posted: 10/12/2017 5:24:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
$350, they aren't going to sell many of those. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
get the Windham Weaponry barreling jig instead.
You need to get caught up. > https://www.ar15.com/forums/industry/Windham-Weaponry-upper-assembly-jig-/489-254215/&page=2 
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Posted: 10/12/2017 8:01:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Good thing upper receivers are rather cheap.
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Posted: 10/13/2017 12:17:57 PM EDT
[#21]
I use the Geissele reaction rod exclusively for muzzle devices and barrel nuts. I aim for 20 ft/lbs for muzzle devices using new crush washers -- sometimes I use sand paper to take a hair off the crush washer to prevent having to turn more than 1/2 rotation
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Posted: 10/13/2017 12:24:16 PM EDT
[#22]
Are timing shims re usable,
thinking about taking my brake off and going back to a flash hider. |
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Posted: 10/14/2017 9:13:28 AM EDT
[#23]
My question to the OP. Was this from one time use, or repeated removal and re installation of the muzzle device?
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Posted: 10/14/2017 9:24:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Well, could be a lot worse I guess! I changed a few A2's out with my clamshell before I picked up a BEV block, luckily I never had an issue, but I could see how it can happen easily!
I'll "dispose" of that upper for you if needed.
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Posted: 10/19/2017 11:15:19 PM EDT
[#25]
Leather grips barrels very well. Just put a strip of leather around the barrel up close to the muzzle threads and grip it hard, really hard, in a good bench vise. You can then remove or install muzzle devices with ease.
Always grip a barrel at the end where you are working, and as close to the work as possible. |
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Posted: 10/20/2017 1:42:48 AM EDT
[#26]
I got a Super Reaction Rod from Primary Arms last time they had a sale on Geissele products. I wanna say it was 99 bucks on sale. Worth every penny. It's rock solid and I didn't bother with receiver blocks when I torqued down the Midwest Industries barrel nut to 40 lb ft on a .300BLK build a few months ago. Needless to say it didn't budge at all when I put the KVP linear comp on the barrel either.
The Super has to brass tabs that clamp down on the ejection port to keep the upper receiver from torquing on the extension tab when you're installing the barrel. Works great once you remember to take the pieces off it before you slide the receiver over it. 
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Posted: 10/20/2017 11:09:12 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I got a Super Reaction Rod from Primary Arms last time they had a sale on Geissele products. I wanna say it was 99 bucks on sale. Worth every penny. It's rock solid and I didn't bother with receiver blocks when I torqued down the Midwest Industries barrel nut to 40 lb ft on a .300BLK build a few months ago. Needless to say it didn't budge at all when I put the KVP linear comp on the barrel either. The Super has to brass tabs that clamp down on the ejection port to keep the upper receiver from torquing on the extension tab when you're installing the barrel. Works great once you remember to take the pieces off it before you slide the receiver over it. http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/IMG_0901.jpg The Windham Weaponry barreling jig is a much better and easier to use tool that offers much more support to the upper receiver. |
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Posted: 10/20/2017 11:10:14 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My question to the OP. Was this from one time use, or repeated removal and re installation of the muzzle device? |
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Posted: 10/20/2017 11:23:47 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I confess... I took the muzzle brake off a AR just using the flats on the end of the muzzle device. my son's AR shot for shit since day one, but it could be cheap ammo, or bad optic. It is a Mossberg AR which the reviews said were shooting tight groups. How would I check to see if I've loosed the bbl from extension, or if the muzzle nut is loose or if I've somehow FUBARed the old bbl / Receiver? Guess I'd have to strip off the free float handguard? I picked up a new Melonited bbl a long whiles back that I was planning to mount for him soon anyway, but would like the experts opinions on what to check and how to check... So It very well could be a crap barrel I dunno. I always check scope mounting first, they can shake loose. After that I look at ammo. It's usually one of the two. From what you are saying I doubt it's the barrel nut or extension, but to inspect any of that you'd need to get the rail off yes. |
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Posted: 10/22/2017 9:01:58 PM EDT
[#30]
I use the magpul bev block. works great for me.
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Posted: 10/25/2017 12:28:09 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I began using a Magpul BEV Block after purchasing a couple of billet receivers. So far it works well and keeps everything lined up. |
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Posted: 10/27/2017 1:02:41 PM EDT
[#32]
I'm glad I saw this thread, I had bought a clamshell and was ready to use it. I'll be getting the BEV block instead and using that.
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Posted: 10/27/2017 1:17:34 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are the reaction rod devices worth trying? I’m to the point with my lead jaw liners they need replaced. Only got 10 years out of them Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
barrel blocks and a cheap harbor freight vise are cheap insurance. |
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Posted: 10/30/2017 11:36:31 PM EDT
[#34]
I own and use both types, the Block and Claim Shell holders.
People who work on and build AR guns for a living would say they never have that problem with either type of holders. I am not saying the Geissele Reaction Rod is a bad tool, it works too and works good. The problem that was experienced was due to, to much or over torque being applied. Crush washer normally can only be used once and some times a crush washer and a shim is required to clock your muzzle devise correctly. Also how the barrel mfr finished the threads up to the shoulder of the barrel has a lot to do with installation methods of the muzzle devise. It's possible to over torque the muzzle devise and damage barrel and or threads, etc. The manufactures torque spec for their muzzle devise is way way less than what was applied to cause the upper receiver damage as shown. The muzzle devise manufacture will give you a torque spec range and supply or give you the Loc-Tite product spec to use so it won't loosen. Using the correct torque spec and Loc-Tite products is going to give a good end result and you wont spend money on another specialty tool. |
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Posted: 11/18/2017 10:24:47 AM EDT
[#35]
I can not help but think that that looks like that came from a loose barrel nut. My thinking would be this: If the barrel nut is tight/properly torqued, the barrel extension should in theory not be able to move. If the barrel nut is too loose, I could see the barrel/extension being able to rotate inside the upper and therefore causing this damage. When you removed the barrel, how tight was the barrel nut?
I am far from a AR expert and neither am I a gunsmith. I am a mechanic and know about proper torque on fasteners. That is why this is so confusing. This is also the first time I have seen such damage. |
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Posted: 11/26/2017 11:56:28 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Reaction Rod is worth every cent. Takes all pressure off the upper. The standard Reaction Rod takes all of the traditional torque that would normally be evenly spread out on the exterior surfaces of the upper when using upper receiver vise blocks and instead places it all on the upper receiver's indexing pin notch and the indexing pin. Basically, the standard Reaction Rod creates a worst case scenario when used for installing or removing barrel nuts. |
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Posted: 11/26/2017 5:53:14 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Incorrect and correct... The standard Reaction Rod takes all of the traditional torque that would normally be evenly spread out on the exterior surfaces of the upper when using upper receiver vise blocks and instead places it all on the upper receiver's indexing pin notch and the indexing pin. Basically, the standard Reaction Rod creates a worst case scenario when used for installing or removing barrel nuts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Reaction Rod is worth every cent. Takes all pressure off the upper. The standard Reaction Rod takes all of the traditional torque that would normally be evenly spread out on the exterior surfaces of the upper when using upper receiver vise blocks and instead places it all on the upper receiver's indexing pin notch and the indexing pin. Basically, the standard Reaction Rod creates a worst case scenario when used for installing or removing barrel nuts. |
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Posted: 11/26/2017 6:04:51 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Reaction Rod is worth every cent. Takes all pressure off the upper. Barrel blocks are the correct tool for muzzle devices. |
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Posted: 11/26/2017 10:39:18 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is a thread about torquing a muzzle device, not installing a barrel. |
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Posted: 2/3/2018 12:27:38 AM EDT
[#40]
BEV block
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Posted: 2/4/2018 3:14:02 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And places it all on the barrel extension. Barrel blocks are the correct tool for muzzle devices. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Reaction Rod is worth every cent. Takes all pressure off the upper. Barrel blocks are the correct tool for muzzle devices. |
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Posted: 2/4/2018 3:45:10 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It may shoot like shit, but at least it doesn't have galling marks from the aluminum barrel blocks! |
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Posted: 2/4/2018 10:35:13 PM EDT
[#43]
I removed a flash hider from an FN barrel by using a wood clamp and clamping the fsb then clamping the wood clamp in my vice.
Then I remembered I owned a nice drill press and have a stack of wood....
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Posted: 2/9/2018 1:03:59 AM EDT
[#44]
You guys are making it too hard. If you have a bench vise, and you should if doing barrel work on either end, just wrap a strip of leather around the barrel close to the muzzle and grip it hard in the vise. Leather grips well and will not slip. A few inches from an old worn out belt is all you need.
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Posted: 2/9/2018 1:25:19 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Reaction rods are ideal for installing muzzle devices. But imho using rubber lined vise blocks is just as good. Never been a fan of peel washers, much prefer crush washers. Arnzen Arms sell reaction rods for around $75 delivered and they are every bit as good and well made as any other brand named model. |
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Posted: 2/9/2018 1:51:50 AM EDT
[#46]
I have the clamshell, it's in my tool box somewhere. I use reaction bars (mine are Geissele). Saying that they're bad makes me think that you don't own one and are getting that info from someone that doesn't own one either. You might not want to use one to remove a stubborn flash hidder or compensator since that could remove the barrel from the barrel extension. I've never actually seen it happen but then I use jamb nuts ever since my first bad experience trying to remove a crush washer.
Beyond installing barrels, the reaction bar works slick for installing gas blocks, hand guards, etc. You can rotate the entire upper to any position you want without ever touching the vise. |
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Posted: 2/9/2018 7:59:25 PM EDT
[#47]
I have a jam nut instead of washers. I time the brake and use two wrenches to tighten the jam nut against the brake.
Should I be concerned about twisting the barrel? It seems to me that it should not be an issue. |
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Posted: 2/9/2018 9:22:06 PM EDT
[#48]
Use a jam nut instead!
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Posted: 2/14/2018 9:58:52 PM EDT
[#49]
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