AR Sponsor
Posted: 10/10/2014 2:12:43 PM EDT
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Hello All,
I'm new to shooting, and up to this point I have focused on WWII firearms. I've been thinking about getting an AR 15 in the 5.56/223 round. I plan to be shooting at the range starting out at 100-200 yards and I want a rifle that can go to 400 yards. Last weekend I went to the range. I tried multiple rifles from friends with different barrels and triggers. I think I've changed my mind on the 16inch barrel and I may have decided to go with the 20 inch after all. Just like the M16A4. I shot with a steel target rilfe that had a 20 inch and hit my first bulls eye at 100 yrds. I'm not planning to clear any buildings and plan to do some range time so this looks like a better option for me. I'm also not as concerned with Mil Spec anymore. And I'm also considering building as an option. And When I say build I just mean buy a complete upper and a lower. I even like this Wooden stock option I found online. Kind of looks like an FAL. So that said I've done some research and found a couple of options I like. Colt makes the AR15A4 and there is the new FN15's. They are each right at $1000.Though I'm worried the colt will have a strange pin system. I've found it hard to find other 20" complete rifles for sale. So now I'm thinking about buying a complete lower and a complete upper. Does anyone have any tips on that? Can I buy a lower with a good trigger ready to go or are they typically just standard? I live not far from pallmetto arms and they have good deals on complete lowers. But I would like to have a good brand on my rifle. Any thoughts on that? Thanks all for helping me learn more and more about these. Nate |
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Quoted:
Hello All, I'm new to shooting, and up to this point I have focused on WWII firearms. I've been thinking about getting an AR 15 in the 5.56/223 round. I plan to be shooting at the range starting out at 100-200 yards and I want a rifle that can go to 400 yards. Last weekend I went to the range. I tried multiple rifles from friends with different barrels and triggers. I think I've changed my mind on the 16inch barrel and I may have decided to go with the 20 inch after all. Just like the M16A4. I shot with a steel target rilfe that had a 20 inch and hit my first bulls eye at 100 yrds. I'm not planning to clear any buildings and plan to do some range time so this looks like a better option for me. I'm also not as concerned with Mil Spec anymore. And I'm also considering building as an option. And When I say build I just mean buy a complete upper and a lower. I even like this Wooden stock option I found online. Kind of looks like an FAL. So that said I've done some research and found a couple of options I like. Colt makes the AR15A4 and there is the new FN15's. They are each right at $1000.Though I'm worried the colt will have a strange pin system. I've found it hard to find other 20" complete rifles for sale. So now I'm thinking about buying a complete lower and a complete upper. Does anyone have any tips on that? Can I buy a lower with a good trigger ready to go or are they typically just standard? I live not far from pallmetto arms and they have good deals on complete lowers. But I would like to have a good brand on my rifle. Any thoughts on that? Thanks all for helping me learn more and more about these. Nate Just one thing regarding barrel length. The length alone does nothing to improve or detract from accuracy. All the length will do is vary the final projectile speed. That can make it shoot flatter for a longer barrel and therefore mean less drop at distance, but the length doesn't make it shoot "more straighter". Not trying to talk you out of the length, just saying if you know your bullet drops and do your part, a 10" barrel is just as accurate as a 20". But you have to know your drops. For triggers, unless you custom order something your lower (or rifle) is gonna have a stock "milspec" trigger. So nothing special. If you want more than that, you'll be buying a new one no matter where you get your lower. (again, assuming you aren't custom ordering a complete package) AR's are literally like lego sets. There are millions of parts and pieces that you can interchange at your will. So you're about to get a massive range of advice from people. Read it all and take it for what it's worth. It's the internet after all. Learn all you can and shoot the crap out of what ever you end up getting! enjoy. |
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Hello All, I'm new to shooting, and up to this point I have focused on WWII firearms. I've been thinking about getting an AR 15 in the 5.56/223 round. I plan to be shooting at the range starting out at 100-200 yards and I want a rifle that can go to 400 yards. Last weekend I went to the range. I tried multiple rifles from friends with different barrels and triggers. I think I've changed my mind on the 16inch barrel and I may have decided to go with the 20 inch after all. Just like the M16A4. I shot with a steel target rilfe that had a 20 inch and hit my first bulls eye at 100 yrds. I'm not planning to clear any buildings and plan to do some range time so this looks like a better option for me. I'm also not as concerned with Mil Spec anymore. And I'm also considering building as an option. And When I say build I just mean buy a complete upper and a lower. I even like this Wooden stock option I found online. Kind of looks like an FAL. So that said I've done some research and found a couple of options I like. Colt makes the AR15A4 and there is the new FN15's. They are each right at $1000.Though I'm worried the colt will have a strange pin system. I've found it hard to find other 20" complete rifles for sale. So now I'm thinking about buying a complete lower and a complete upper. Does anyone have any tips on that? Can I buy a lower with a good trigger ready to go or are they typically just standard? I live not far from pallmetto arms and they have good deals on complete lowers. But I would like to have a good brand on my rifle. Any thoughts on that? Thanks all for helping me learn more and more about these. Nate I think the complete upper and lower is a good way to go. If by Palmetto Arms you mean Palmetto State Armory, they are very affordable and excellent in my opinion. I jist recommend going for one of their uppers marked as premium or CHF because you will be getting an FN barrel. As for the Colts, the pins will not be an issue. They are standard now and only old models had the larger pins. As for barrel length, if all you intend to do is shoot off a bench then the 20in will be fine. If I only had one AR I would prefer 16in because its kind of the best of all worlds.. With my 16in I hit 400 yards fairly easily with a 4x scope, and it should be no problem for you if your gun is zeroed and you do your part. My 14.5in has just a red dot and I can hit the steel fairly regularly with that also as long as I'm concentrating and taking time with the shots. happy AR hunting! |
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Just one thing regarding barrel length. The length alone does nothing to improve or detract from accuracy. All the length will do is vary the final projectile speed. That can make it shoot flatter for a longer barrel and therefore mean less drop at distance, but the length doesn't make it shoot "more straighter". Not trying to talk you out of the length, just saying if you know your bullet drops and do your part, a 10" barrel is just as accurate as a 20". But you have to know your drops. For triggers, unless you custom order something your lower (or rifle) is gonna have a stock "milspec" trigger. So nothing special. If you want more than that, you'll be buying a new one no matter where you get your lower. (again, assuming you aren't custom ordering a complete package) AR's are literally like lego sets. There are millions of parts and pieces that you can interchange at your will. So you're about to get a massive range of advice from people. Read it all and take it for what it's worth. It's the internet after all. Learn all you can and shoot the crap out of what ever you end up getting! enjoy. Quoted:
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Hello All, I'm new to shooting, and up to this point I have focused on WWII firearms. I've been thinking about getting an AR 15 in the 5.56/223 round. I plan to be shooting at the range starting out at 100-200 yards and I want a rifle that can go to 400 yards. Last weekend I went to the range. I tried multiple rifles from friends with different barrels and triggers. I think I've changed my mind on the 16inch barrel and I may have decided to go with the 20 inch after all. Just like the M16A4. I shot with a steel target rilfe that had a 20 inch and hit my first bulls eye at 100 yrds. I'm not planning to clear any buildings and plan to do some range time so this looks like a better option for me. I'm also not as concerned with Mil Spec anymore. And I'm also considering building as an option. And When I say build I just mean buy a complete upper and a lower. I even like this Wooden stock option I found online. Kind of looks like an FAL. So that said I've done some research and found a couple of options I like. Colt makes the AR15A4 and there is the new FN15's. They are each right at $1000.Though I'm worried the colt will have a strange pin system. I've found it hard to find other 20" complete rifles for sale. So now I'm thinking about buying a complete lower and a complete upper. Does anyone have any tips on that? Can I buy a lower with a good trigger ready to go or are they typically just standard? I live not far from pallmetto arms and they have good deals on complete lowers. But I would like to have a good brand on my rifle. Any thoughts on that? Thanks all for helping me learn more and more about these. Nate Just one thing regarding barrel length. The length alone does nothing to improve or detract from accuracy. All the length will do is vary the final projectile speed. That can make it shoot flatter for a longer barrel and therefore mean less drop at distance, but the length doesn't make it shoot "more straighter". Not trying to talk you out of the length, just saying if you know your bullet drops and do your part, a 10" barrel is just as accurate as a 20". But you have to know your drops. For triggers, unless you custom order something your lower (or rifle) is gonna have a stock "milspec" trigger. So nothing special. If you want more than that, you'll be buying a new one no matter where you get your lower. (again, assuming you aren't custom ordering a complete package) AR's are literally like lego sets. There are millions of parts and pieces that you can interchange at your will. So you're about to get a massive range of advice from people. Read it all and take it for what it's worth. It's the internet after all. Learn all you can and shoot the crap out of what ever you end up getting! enjoy. I do not know where you got all that crap from, but barrel length has quite a bit to do with accuracy, just as barrel contour, twist ratio, temperature, and bullet weight do. I first qualified with a M16A1 (20" bbl with 1/12 twist, 55gr. BTHP ammo) back in 1978 at ranges of 200M, 300M, and 500M. We used a 200M zero. Depending on the target and distance, you merely placed your front sight post at the right spot on the target (6 o'clock, center mass, or head and shoulders). Point of Aim (POA) determined Point of Impact (POI). Since the 5.56/.223 round travel in an arch, you have to compensate for that arch at given distances. You can refer to this a "bullet drop". A 20" AR will have less of a "bullet drop" than a shorter barrel because of the added velocity and straighter trajectory. A 20" AR will easily be more accurate at longer ranges that shorter barrel length ARs. As for the trigger, I have been using standard mil-spec type triggers for over 36 years. I have never found a reason to have anything more on a basic AR. On new ARs, the trigger may appear to be a bit heavy, but with time spent shooting it, they will eventually get smoother. I would not invest hundreds of dollars into a special trigger setup unless you are doing nothing but target shooting and want to be as accurate as possible. If you are just wanting to be on target out to 400 yards, I would say to practice with the mil-spec type trigger that comes on the rifle. This will teach you much better trigger control. If at some point, you fell like you want to invest in a trigger system, you can do so. The Colt AR15A4 and the FN AR15 are equally as good. PSA ARs are good ARs as well. You want to use their "Premium" line of parts if at all possible. PTAC stuff can be hit or miss. You could probably put together a nice 20" AR through PSA. I have several ARs that have 20" barrels. I also have several ARs (27 to be exact). Like you, I have several WWII weapons as well. Good luck on your AR quest. |
| I have to agree with mobius. The length does not effect accuracy, just velocity. So yes, there will be more drop due to lower velocity with a shprter barrel, but as long as you have your sighting adjusted and know where to aim for what distance you are shooting, you won't jave accuracy problems. |
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I do not know where you got all that crap from, but barrel length has quite a bit to do with accuracy, just as barrel contour, twist ratio, temperature, and bullet weight do. I first qualified with a M16A1 (20" bbl with 1/12 twist, 55gr. BTHP ammo) back in 1978 at ranges of 200M, 300M, and 500M. We used a 200M zero. Depending on the target and distance, you merely placed your front sight post at the right spot on the target (6 o'clock, center mass, or head and shoulders). Point of Aim (POA) determined Point of Impact (POI). Since the 5.56/.223 round travel in an arch, you have to compensate for that arch at given distances. You can refer to this a "bullet drop". A 20" AR will have less of a "bullet drop" than a shorter barrel because of the added velocity and straighter trajectory. A 20" AR will easily be more accurate at longer ranges that shorter barrel length ARs. As for the trigger, I have been using standard mil-spec type triggers for over 36 years. I have never found a reason to have anything more on a basic AR. On new ARs, the trigger may appear to be a bit heavy, but with time spent shooting it, they will eventually get smoother. I would not invest hundreds of dollars into a special trigger setup unless you are doing nothing but target shooting and want to be as accurate as possible. If you are just wanting to be on target out to 400 yards, I would say to practice with the mil-spec type trigger that comes on the rifle. This will teach you much better trigger control. If at some point, you fell like you want to invest in a trigger system, you can do so. The Colt AR15A4 and the FN AR15 are equally as good. PSA ARs are good ARs as well. You want to use their "Premium" line of parts if at all possible. PTAC stuff can be hit or miss. You could probably put together a nice 20" AR through PSA. I have several ARs that have 20" barrels. I also have several ARs (27 to be exact). Like you, I have several WWII weapons as well. Good luck on your AR quest. Quoted:
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Hello All, I'm new to shooting, and up to this point I have focused on WWII firearms. I've been thinking about getting an AR 15 in the 5.56/223 round. I plan to be shooting at the range starting out at 100-200 yards and I want a rifle that can go to 400 yards. Last weekend I went to the range. I tried multiple rifles from friends with different barrels and triggers. I think I've changed my mind on the 16inch barrel and I may have decided to go with the 20 inch after all. Just like the M16A4. I shot with a steel target rilfe that had a 20 inch and hit my first bulls eye at 100 yrds. I'm not planning to clear any buildings and plan to do some range time so this looks like a better option for me. I'm also not as concerned with Mil Spec anymore. And I'm also considering building as an option. And When I say build I just mean buy a complete upper and a lower. I even like this Wooden stock option I found online. Kind of looks like an FAL. So that said I've done some research and found a couple of options I like. Colt makes the AR15A4 and there is the new FN15's. They are each right at $1000.Though I'm worried the colt will have a strange pin system. I've found it hard to find other 20" complete rifles for sale. So now I'm thinking about buying a complete lower and a complete upper. Does anyone have any tips on that? Can I buy a lower with a good trigger ready to go or are they typically just standard? I live not far from pallmetto arms and they have good deals on complete lowers. But I would like to have a good brand on my rifle. Any thoughts on that? Thanks all for helping me learn more and more about these. Nate Just one thing regarding barrel length. The length alone does nothing to improve or detract from accuracy. All the length will do is vary the final projectile speed. That can make it shoot flatter for a longer barrel and therefore mean less drop at distance, but the length doesn't make it shoot "more straighter". Not trying to talk you out of the length, just saying if you know your bullet drops and do your part, a 10" barrel is just as accurate as a 20". But you have to know your drops. For triggers, unless you custom order something your lower (or rifle) is gonna have a stock "milspec" trigger. So nothing special. If you want more than that, you'll be buying a new one no matter where you get your lower. (again, assuming you aren't custom ordering a complete package) AR's are literally like lego sets. There are millions of parts and pieces that you can interchange at your will. So you're about to get a massive range of advice from people. Read it all and take it for what it's worth. It's the internet after all. Learn all you can and shoot the crap out of what ever you end up getting! enjoy. I do not know where you got all that crap from, but barrel length has quite a bit to do with accuracy, just as barrel contour, twist ratio, temperature, and bullet weight do. I first qualified with a M16A1 (20" bbl with 1/12 twist, 55gr. BTHP ammo) back in 1978 at ranges of 200M, 300M, and 500M. We used a 200M zero. Depending on the target and distance, you merely placed your front sight post at the right spot on the target (6 o'clock, center mass, or head and shoulders). Point of Aim (POA) determined Point of Impact (POI). Since the 5.56/.223 round travel in an arch, you have to compensate for that arch at given distances. You can refer to this a "bullet drop". A 20" AR will have less of a "bullet drop" than a shorter barrel because of the added velocity and straighter trajectory. A 20" AR will easily be more accurate at longer ranges that shorter barrel length ARs. As for the trigger, I have been using standard mil-spec type triggers for over 36 years. I have never found a reason to have anything more on a basic AR. On new ARs, the trigger may appear to be a bit heavy, but with time spent shooting it, they will eventually get smoother. I would not invest hundreds of dollars into a special trigger setup unless you are doing nothing but target shooting and want to be as accurate as possible. If you are just wanting to be on target out to 400 yards, I would say to practice with the mil-spec type trigger that comes on the rifle. This will teach you much better trigger control. If at some point, you fell like you want to invest in a trigger system, you can do so. The Colt AR15A4 and the FN AR15 are equally as good. PSA ARs are good ARs as well. You want to use their "Premium" line of parts if at all possible. PTAC stuff can be hit or miss. You could probably put together a nice 20" AR through PSA. I have several ARs that have 20" barrels. I also have several ARs (27 to be exact). Like you, I have several WWII weapons as well. Good luck on your AR quest. Physics. Length alone has zero impact on accuracy. Zero. That's what I said. Length ALONE has zero impact how accurate a gun is. Contour isn't length. Twist ratio isn't length. Bullet weight isn't length. You then went on to restate everything I already said after saying it was crap. Bullets drop. They rise from the muzzle to the apex of flight, then drop. When dealing with distance shooting, it's all drop PS, a 200M zero means that the bullet apexes around the 100M mark-ish. So anything past that is drop. It doesn't start rising again after the apex of the arc. So bullet drop is an appropriate term to use. As you so eloquently proved me right, "All the length will do is vary the final projectile speed" which I said before. If you know your speed and know ballistics, you can be just as accurate with a shorter barrel. High velocity will make adjustments and calcs easier to do because the trajectory is flatter, but it doesn't make it more accurate. Accuracy is better described as repeatability. Every time I pull the trigger, the bullet hits the same spot. That's accuracy. I just need to know where that spot is and put it where I want it. Barrel length does NOT improve accuracy. Other factors certainly do, but not length alone. PS - I could even make the argument that length may be a misdirection regarding velocity unless you are only shooting factory ammo. With handloads you can tailor your rounds to increase velocities etc to make your shorter barrels push higher velocities. But I'm assuming this isn't the place to discuss that. |
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So, are you going to say that the length, contour, and twist of a barrel has nothing to do with accuracy? Are you going to say that a lightweight 14.5" 1/9 barrel is going to be just as accurate as a 20" Government or heavy profile 1/7 barrel? Barrel length, contour, and twist have a lot to do with the accuracy of a barrel. Temperature and bullet weights have a great deal with it as well. The longer the barrel, the greater the velocity at which the projectile exits and the flatter the trajectory, thereby reducing the rate of drop. This, in turn, reduces the amount of compensation a shooter has to account for. Accuracy is putting the shot where you need it from the first shot to the last. I will say this and then I am done with this thread, If I want an AR that will perform well at distances of 400 yards and possibly further, I want nothing less that a 20" barrel. A 24" barrel is more suited to long range shooting or extreme accuracy at short ranges. The important thing to know is what your POA should be. Note the different POAs for 300M (center mass), 200M (6 o'clock), and 500M (head and shoulders). BTW, these are my notes from boot camp 36 years ago. Quoted:
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Hello All, I'm new to shooting, and up to this point I have focused on WWII firearms. I've been thinking about getting an AR 15 in the 5.56/223 round. I plan to be shooting at the range starting out at 100-200 yards and I want a rifle that can go to 400 yards. Last weekend I went to the range. I tried multiple rifles from friends with different barrels and triggers. I think I've changed my mind on the 16inch barrel and I may have decided to go with the 20 inch after all. Just like the M16A4. I shot with a steel target rilfe that had a 20 inch and hit my first bulls eye at 100 yrds. I'm not planning to clear any buildings and plan to do some range time so this looks like a better option for me. I'm also not as concerned with Mil Spec anymore. And I'm also considering building as an option. And When I say build I just mean buy a complete upper and a lower. I even like this Wooden stock option I found online. Kind of looks like an FAL. So that said I've done some research and found a couple of options I like. Colt makes the AR15A4 and there is the new FN15's. They are each right at $1000.Though I'm worried the colt will have a strange pin system. I've found it hard to find other 20" complete rifles for sale. So now I'm thinking about buying a complete lower and a complete upper. Does anyone have any tips on that? Can I buy a lower with a good trigger ready to go or are they typically just standard? I live not far from pallmetto arms and they have good deals on complete lowers. But I would like to have a good brand on my rifle. Any thoughts on that? Thanks all for helping me learn more and more about these. Nate Just one thing regarding barrel length. The length alone does nothing to improve or detract from accuracy. All the length will do is vary the final projectile speed. That can make it shoot flatter for a longer barrel and therefore mean less drop at distance, but the length doesn't make it shoot "more straighter". Not trying to talk you out of the length, just saying if you know your bullet drops and do your part, a 10" barrel is just as accurate as a 20". But you have to know your drops. For triggers, unless you custom order something your lower (or rifle) is gonna have a stock "milspec" trigger. So nothing special. If you want more than that, you'll be buying a new one no matter where you get your lower. (again, assuming you aren't custom ordering a complete package) AR's are literally like lego sets. There are millions of parts and pieces that you can interchange at your will. So you're about to get a massive range of advice from people. Read it all and take it for what it's worth. It's the internet after all. Learn all you can and shoot the crap out of what ever you end up getting! enjoy. I do not know where you got all that crap from, but barrel length has quite a bit to do with accuracy, just as barrel contour, twist ratio, temperature, and bullet weight do. I first qualified with a M16A1 (20" bbl with 1/12 twist, 55gr. BTHP ammo) back in 1978 at ranges of 200M, 300M, and 500M. We used a 200M zero. Depending on the target and distance, you merely placed your front sight post at the right spot on the target (6 o'clock, center mass, or head and shoulders). Point of Aim (POA) determined Point of Impact (POI). Since the 5.56/.223 round travel in an arch, you have to compensate for that arch at given distances. You can refer to this a "bullet drop". A 20" AR will have less of a "bullet drop" than a shorter barrel because of the added velocity and straighter trajectory. A 20" AR will easily be more accurate at longer ranges that shorter barrel length ARs. As for the trigger, I have been using standard mil-spec type triggers for over 36 years. I have never found a reason to have anything more on a basic AR. On new ARs, the trigger may appear to be a bit heavy, but with time spent shooting it, they will eventually get smoother. I would not invest hundreds of dollars into a special trigger setup unless you are doing nothing but target shooting and want to be as accurate as possible. If you are just wanting to be on target out to 400 yards, I would say to practice with the mil-spec type trigger that comes on the rifle. This will teach you much better trigger control. If at some point, you fell like you want to invest in a trigger system, you can do so. The Colt AR15A4 and the FN AR15 are equally as good. PSA ARs are good ARs as well. You want to use their "Premium" line of parts if at all possible. PTAC stuff can be hit or miss. You could probably put together a nice 20" AR through PSA. I have several ARs that have 20" barrels. I also have several ARs (27 to be exact). Like you, I have several WWII weapons as well. Good luck on your AR quest. Physics. Length alone has zero impact on accuracy. Zero. That's what I said. Length ALONE has zero impact how accurate a gun is. Contour isn't length. Twist ratio isn't length. Bullet weight isn't length. You then went on to restate everything I already said after saying it was crap. Bullets drop. They rise from the muzzle to the apex of flight, then drop. When dealing with distance shooting, it's all drop PS, a 200M zero means that the bullet apexes around the 100M mark-ish. So anything past that is drop. It doesn't start rising again after the apex of the arc. So bullet drop is an appropriate term to use. As you so eloquently proved me right, "All the length will do is vary the final projectile speed" which I said before. If you know your speed and know ballistics, you can be just as accurate with a shorter barrel. High velocity will make adjustments and calcs easier to do because the trajectory is flatter, but it doesn't make it more accurate. Accuracy is better described as repeatability. Every time I pull the trigger, the bullet hits the same spot. That's accuracy. I just need to know where that spot is and put it where I want it. Barrel length does NOT improve accuracy. Other factors certainly do, but not length alone. PS - I could even make the argument that length may be a misdirection regarding velocity unless you are only shooting factory ammo. With handloads you can tailor your rounds to increase velocities etc to make your shorter barrels push higher velocities. But I'm assuming this isn't the place to discuss that. So, are you going to say that the length, contour, and twist of a barrel has nothing to do with accuracy? Are you going to say that a lightweight 14.5" 1/9 barrel is going to be just as accurate as a 20" Government or heavy profile 1/7 barrel? Barrel length, contour, and twist have a lot to do with the accuracy of a barrel. Temperature and bullet weights have a great deal with it as well. The longer the barrel, the greater the velocity at which the projectile exits and the flatter the trajectory, thereby reducing the rate of drop. This, in turn, reduces the amount of compensation a shooter has to account for. Accuracy is putting the shot where you need it from the first shot to the last. I will say this and then I am done with this thread, If I want an AR that will perform well at distances of 400 yards and possibly further, I want nothing less that a 20" barrel. A 24" barrel is more suited to long range shooting or extreme accuracy at short ranges. The important thing to know is what your POA should be. Note the different POAs for 300M (center mass), 200M (6 o'clock), and 500M (head and shoulders). BTW, these are my notes from boot camp 36 years ago. Wow. I could easily approach this several ways, but in the interest of trying to be peaceable I'll try this. First, I would suggest you go back and re-read what I posted. You will notice that I said "Length ALONE..." I even capitalized the alone part to be clear. Apparently I wasn't. So, I'll try a different tack. We need to separate the accuracy of a rifle from the skill of the shooter. If you insist on attaching the term accuracy to the something other than the rifle can we at least agree to use the term rifle accuracy and shooter accuracy? Accuracy when applied to a rifle is the ability of a rifle to consistently reproduce a shot at a point when all other factors remain the same. So long as the velocity remains the same, the environment remains the same, and the shooter is removed from the equation an accurate rifle will consistently place a bullet at the same point along a given trajectory every time. Accuracy of the shooter is the skill to be able to take an accurate rifle and, using knowledge, experience and skill, placing a shot where the shooter wants the shot to hit. The shooter demands consistency from the rifle. The rifle does not demand consistency from the shooter. The rifle will shoot that given trajectory regardless of the shooter. So it is the goal of the shooter to know that trajectory and use it to hit a target. Let's remove the length of the barrel from the debate since that seems to be the point of contention. If I can propel a projectile with the same velocity, the same twist rate and the same environmental conditions, the length of the barrel is irrelevant. In other words, if I can duplicate the same velocity and twist on a bullet of the same dimension and weight from any length barrel, the barrel length is irrelevant. There is however, a persistent myth that likely started with iron sights (which can be traced to sight radius actually), that a longer barrel (assuming all other things are the same) is more accurate. I didn't say "better" or "easier to shoot" I said more accurate. So long as the bullet is traveling at the same speed and all environment conditions are the same, that myth is false. What a longer barrel, in general does, is increase the velocity of the projectile assuming identical loads in each cartridge. So if you shoot factory loads, a bullet will have higher velocity from the longer barrel. But that doesn't make the rifle more accurate. That makes it easier for the shooter to be more accurate using that rifle. Actually, what it does is makes it easier on the shooter and in tune requiring less skill to shoot. This is not to say that you don't need skill, just to say that it requires less compensation and therefore is more forgiving. That helps the skill of the shooter. But it doesn't make the rifle more or less accurate. My only point is that we don't need to be hung up on the length of the barrel defining accuracy. As you pointed out, there are SO many other variables that actually affect accuracy including the contour, the rifling, the crown, etc, etc. Length alone does nothing to improve or decline accuracy. |
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So I guess if I had a custom load, and the skill, I could be proficient at 400-500 yards with a 16" barrel. I don't have the skill sadly and I'm assuming it will be easier on me to be on the paper at those ranges. Is that a fact that all agree with?
No one mentioned suggestions on Barrel material to get other than the colt, fn, and palmeto arms premium, so I'm guessing I'm good to go with that? I read in the faq there is lots of kinds. Does the bolt carrier group and charging handle make a difference? How much of a difference does a free float rail vs the plain plastic that comes on the fn and colt A4's? Thanks all for the help! |
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So I guess if I had a custom load, and the skill, I could be proficient at 400-500 yards with a 16" barrel. I don't have the skill sadly and I'm assuming it will be easier on me to be on the paper at those ranges. Is that a fact that all agree with? No one mentioned suggestions on Barrel material to get other than the colt, fn, and palmeto arms premium, so I'm guessing I'm good to go with that? I read in the faq there is lots of kinds. Does the bolt carrier group and charging handle make a difference? How much of a difference does a free float rail vs the plain plastic that comes on the fn and colt A4's? Thanks all for the help! A lot of this is going to depend on the barrel, the quality of the barrel, the twist with the right projectile, contour are all going to effect the accuracy, the trigger is also a concern as far as accuracy generally milspec triggers are not going to be the most accurate, they are single stage pull is roughly 5.5-6.5lbs, some are gritty, some don't have the best reset etc... So if you are looking for accurate rifle most of the above posters hit it right on the head barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy, other than a small possible increase in velocity giving you a flatter trajectory. Now that we have discussed this I will try to help you out. As far as barrels I would probably split the difference and go with and 18" this will still give you a slightly shorter length, you would be amazed at what a difference 2" will make, when it comes to portability. Also good quality 18" barrels are much easier to find. same with 16", 20" and 24" have some what fallen out of favor except for Hbar varmint barrels. I would probably go with a A2 or govt profile, staying away from HBar because they are heavy, and the lightweights because they are slightly less accurate because of more flex. As far as barrel coatings I would stay away from chrome lined, chrome lining will make a barrel last longer but reduces accuracy. If you want accuracy I would look at a stainless barrel, or phosphate or melonite coated steel barrel. Next look at twist rate to if you plan to shoot heavier bullets 55gr+ look at a 1/7 or 1/8. if you plan to shoot lighter bullets 62gr or lighter I would look at a 1/9. if you want a truly accurate rifle I would build your own from the ground up, This means you will have to aquires some tools but in the long run you can get the exact components you want and not completely break the bank. If I were looking for accuracy I would look for a barrel from Noveske, or Rainer Arms. Spend a good deal of you budget on the barrel, then any upper will work fine, you can even get a blem one from PSA for cheap. The next most important thing after barrel is trigger, if you are on a budget I would look at the ALG Defense triggers they are milspec but are much better made. If you want to go custom then I would look at Geissele Automatics triggers like the SSA, SSA-E, or the slightly cheaper GS2. The final step to building an accurate rifle is running a free float hand guard. there are way to many options to name for this category, but you want to true floating barrel, not a drop in quad rail. Bolt carrier and charging handle make no discernible difference in accuracy just get what you like. Just make sure you get good quality ones. Hope this helps get you in the right direction. You can could also look at buying a complete upper from some one like Noveske but you probably going to end up blowing your whole budget just on the upper. |
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Here is a good thread to help you out.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/658150_Which_18_barrel_.html Edited: Thought I would point out why I would build vs buy a complete Noveske Upper https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2576 |
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A lot of this is going to depend on the barrel, the quality of the barrel, the twist with the right projectile, contour are all going to effect the accuracy, the trigger is also a concern as far as accuracy generally milspec triggers are going to be the most accurate, they are single stage pull is roughly 5.5-6.5lbs, some are gritty, some don't have the best reset etc... So if you are looking for accurate rifle most of the above posters hit it right on the head barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy, other than a small possible increase in velocity giving you a flatter trajectory. Now that we have discussed this I will try to help you out. As far as barrels I would probably split the difference and go with and 18" the will still give you a slightly shorter length, you would be amazed at what a difference 2" will make, when it comes to portability. I would probably go with a A2 or govt profile, staying away from HBar because they are heavy, and the lightweights because they are slightly less accurate because of more flex. As far as barrel coatings I would stay away from chrome lined, chrome lining will make a barrel last longer but reduces accuracy. If you want accuracy I would look at a stainless barrel, or phosphate or melonite coated steel barrel. Next look at twist rate to if you plan to shoot heavier bullets 55gr+ look at a 1/7 or 1/8. if you plan to shoot lighter bullets 62gr or lighter I would look at a 1/9. if you want a truly accurate rifle I would build your own from the ground up, This means you will have to aquires some tools but in the long run you can get the exact components you want and not completely break the bank. If I were looking for accuracy I would look for a barrel from Noveske, or Rainer Arms. Spend a good deal of you budget on the barrel, then any upper will work fine, you can even get a blem one from PSA for cheap. The next most important thing after barrel is trigger, if you are on a budget I would look at the ALG Defense triggers they are milspec but are much better made. If you want to go custom then I would look at Geissele Automatics triggers like the SSA, SSA-E, or the slightly cheaper GS2. The final step to building an accurate rifle is running a free float hand guard. there are way to many options to name for this category, but you want to true floating barrel, not a drop in quad rail. Bolt carrier and charging handle make no discernible difference in accuracy just get what you like. Just make sure you get good quality ones. Hope this helps get you in the right direction. You can could also look at buying a complete upper from some one like Noveske but you probably going to end up blowing your whole budget just on the upper. Quoted:
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So I guess if I had a custom load, and the skill, I could be proficient at 400-500 yards with a 16" barrel. I don't have the skill sadly and I'm assuming it will be easier on me to be on the paper at those ranges. Is that a fact that all agree with? No one mentioned suggestions on Barrel material to get other than the colt, fn, and palmeto arms premium, so I'm guessing I'm good to go with that? I read in the faq there is lots of kinds. Does the bolt carrier group and charging handle make a difference? How much of a difference does a free float rail vs the plain plastic that comes on the fn and colt A4's? Thanks all for the help! A lot of this is going to depend on the barrel, the quality of the barrel, the twist with the right projectile, contour are all going to effect the accuracy, the trigger is also a concern as far as accuracy generally milspec triggers are going to be the most accurate, they are single stage pull is roughly 5.5-6.5lbs, some are gritty, some don't have the best reset etc... So if you are looking for accurate rifle most of the above posters hit it right on the head barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy, other than a small possible increase in velocity giving you a flatter trajectory. Now that we have discussed this I will try to help you out. As far as barrels I would probably split the difference and go with and 18" the will still give you a slightly shorter length, you would be amazed at what a difference 2" will make, when it comes to portability. I would probably go with a A2 or govt profile, staying away from HBar because they are heavy, and the lightweights because they are slightly less accurate because of more flex. As far as barrel coatings I would stay away from chrome lined, chrome lining will make a barrel last longer but reduces accuracy. If you want accuracy I would look at a stainless barrel, or phosphate or melonite coated steel barrel. Next look at twist rate to if you plan to shoot heavier bullets 55gr+ look at a 1/7 or 1/8. if you plan to shoot lighter bullets 62gr or lighter I would look at a 1/9. if you want a truly accurate rifle I would build your own from the ground up, This means you will have to aquires some tools but in the long run you can get the exact components you want and not completely break the bank. If I were looking for accuracy I would look for a barrel from Noveske, or Rainer Arms. Spend a good deal of you budget on the barrel, then any upper will work fine, you can even get a blem one from PSA for cheap. The next most important thing after barrel is trigger, if you are on a budget I would look at the ALG Defense triggers they are milspec but are much better made. If you want to go custom then I would look at Geissele Automatics triggers like the SSA, SSA-E, or the slightly cheaper GS2. The final step to building an accurate rifle is running a free float hand guard. there are way to many options to name for this category, but you want to true floating barrel, not a drop in quad rail. Bolt carrier and charging handle make no discernible difference in accuracy just get what you like. Just make sure you get good quality ones. Hope this helps get you in the right direction. You can could also look at buying a complete upper from some one like Noveske but you probably going to end up blowing your whole budget just on the upper. +1 to everything above. There's good stuff in there. For free float, the main benefit is that it removes pressure points on the barrel. It allows the barrel to be free from any flexes or pressures you put on it with a bipod or sandbags or whatever. There's a lot of debate about why it actually helps, but it does seem to help. BTW, you don't really need to be exceedingly proficient to hit at 400-500 yards unless you mean you want to hit very small targets like bullseye. I can hit a 12" plate at 300M every time I pull the trigger from an AR that isn't really designed to be all that accurate. (ETA, this is from a bench with a bipod so not off hand, I wish, but no) I can't hit a 2" plate at 300M, but this AR isn't made to do that, you know what I mean? So proficient at 400-500 yards really depends on what you mean. So are you trying to hit man sized targets at 400-500 yards or are you trying to hit dimes at 400-500 yards? Think along the lines of a super car. It's not hard to make a car go 100MPH. It's not really even that hard to make it go 150MPH. 200MPH takes a bit of doing. 250MPH takes a special car. 260MPH takes a hyper car. etc. The more you want to shrink your target at distance, the more you need to put into the gun and the training. Hope that makes sense. |
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So I guess if I had a custom load, and the skill, I could be proficient at 400-500 yards with a 16" barrel. I don't have the skill sadly and I'm assuming it will be easier on me to be on the paper at those ranges. Is that a fact that all agree with? No one mentioned suggestions on Barrel material to get other than the colt, fn, and palmeto arms premium, so I'm guessing I'm good to go with that? I read in the faq there is lots of kinds. Does the bolt carrier group and charging handle make a difference? How much of a difference does a free float rail vs the plain plastic that comes on the fn and colt A4's? Thanks all for the help! Welcome to the forum Nate. Understand that some people are quick to argue some of the little stuff whether you need to hear it or not. The old is new concept came through last year and we saw several companies push out 20 inch m16A4 type uppers. I personally thought it was great I have an old 20 inch upper and had an a4 in basic and at my first unit while in the military. With a competent shooter and ammo any serviceable ar15 will make acceptable hits at the 400 yard range. I have a 10.5 inch pistol AR that I can make a majority of shots on a 18 inch across piece of steel. Buying the very best barrel and equipment you can find might be good but at the same time you will likely have more gun than you are capable or able to afford to shoot well at. 2 weeks ago I was at a long range class and one shooter could not figure out or understand why his AR15 was not grouping as well as others...It was a fairly expensive gun and had top of the line equipment. The problem was he was using xm193 which is a military grade round. He had misunderstood the differences between military rounds and match rounds. Unless you are a hand loader or are willing to feed high quality ammo into your gun you will likely not see as much bang for your buck in terms of the barrel and other components. The bolt carrier itself and charging handle will have little to do with accuracy as long as the bolt itself is head spaced properly to the barrel you see little improvements in changing it out. Some charging handles are much easier to use though which makes them appealing. The stock handle has a very small latch and can be hard to use in a hurry. Really more than anything I would suggest just doing a bunch more reading. There are sub forums in the ar15 section one of them is called rifles, uppers, lowers, barrels and more the title covers a lot but the bulk of conversation still some how goes back to the ar15 general section. The good parts of the subsections is all the data that is in the pinned threads. Take a look through the u, l, b and more section here and then go to the build it yourself You mentioned you were looking at some things like wood furniture and a different trigger. First the trigger pin issues with colt have not been a thing for quite a while. Unless you are buying an older used colt lower this won't be a problem. If in doubt ask when buying but I don't see that being a likely problem. If you want custom items or to change stuff right away building may very well be for you especially on the lower. Mil spec triggers aren't very good. Paying more for a mil spec trigger and a collapsible butt stock and carbine buffer would suck if you plan on putting an A2 buttstock and buffer on the gun with an upgraded trigger...This make sense so far? The more the read the deeper you will go. Some answers will form no question but you are starting off strong by going shooting with friends who have AR's. Bounce ideas off of them see if you can try things they have. I am way to happy to share things I have with other gun enthusiasts and I would guess your friends would be the same way. With everything in life advice wise trust but verify. There is no reason to take everything you see or hear at face value nod your head make a note and look into it more down the road. Best of luck man make sure you show it off when its all said and done. here is my A4 they are fun guns. 
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Is this a good price on a complete lower? It's $180 for a plametto arms.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/2416/ I'm debating on that and this upper. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/12908/category/4220/ |
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Is this a good price on a complete lower? It's $180 for a plametto arms. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/2416/ I'm debating on that and this upper. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/12908/category/4220/ The lower is good to go, in your OP you said you wanted accuracy, which is why I have linked the two below, the one you chose is not a bad option either I just believe these are better considering what you originally wanted. I still would not go with a 20" but I guess it's up to you, the one you shot that was 20" was apparently far better set up that any of the others you shot. I would go this route http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/barreled-upper-assemblies/psa/5-56-nato-223/18/psa-18-chf-223-wylde-1-8-rifle-gas-ssk-15-with-nickel-boron-bcg-and-charging-handle.html or this route http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/barreled-upper-assemblies/psa/5-56-nato-223/20/psa-20-ss-chf-223-wylde-rifle-gas-ssk-15-without-bcg-or-charging-handle.html Also any that come without a bolt carrier group (BCG) and charging handle (CH) you will have to order seperatly. The 18" I linked above has a better barrel, free float hand guard, CH and BCG included |
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Nice choice RogueSpear! I like that 18" you posted. 1:8 twist is a good choice for a range of weights.
That upper and the PSA lower and you have a complete system for $800. Just add a decent scope and you'll have a good target shooter for that distance you want. |
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Nice choice RogueSpear! I like that 18" you posted. 1:8 twist is a good choice for a range of weights. That upper and the PSA lower and you have a complete system for $800. Just add a decent scope and you'll have a good target shooter for that distance you want. You could also add a trigger for about $150, use discount code: LAPG for 5% off http://www.lapolicegear.com/geissele-automatics-2-stage-g2s.html So for under $1000 you could one great rifle, add optics of your choice and be done. |
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So I guess if I had a custom load, and the skill, I could be proficient at 400-500 yards with a 16" barrel. I don't have the skill sadly and I'm assuming it will be easier on me to be on the paper at those ranges. Is that a fact that all agree with? No one mentioned suggestions on Barrel material to get other than the colt, fn, and palmeto arms premium, so I'm guessing I'm good to go with that? I read in the faq there is lots of kinds. Does the bolt carrier group and charging handle make a difference? How much of a difference does a free float rail vs the plain plastic that comes on the fn and colt A4's? Thanks all for the help! Cliff notes for you; The Marines shoot qualification out to 500 meters with iron sights. Any one can learn and in less time than they thought.. With iron sight a longer sight radius makes shooting accurately easier than with a short sight radius. In discussion we often loose sight (no pun intended) of the critical difference between the terms long barrel and long sight radius. A scope makes sight radius a moot point when it is being used to in testing both a long barrel and shorter barrel are being for group size ability. Barrel material is not a big deal unless (a) a serious competition shooter on the circuit or (b) belt fed full auto. Shooter ability is the single biggest factor in group size. After that comes the mechanical items like ammo, free float and trigger. |
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Cliff notes for you; The Marines shoot qualification out to 500 meters with iron sights. Any one can learn and in less time than they thought.. With iron sight a longer sight radius makes shooting accurately easier than with a short sight radius. In discussion we often loose sight (no pun intended) of the critical difference between the terms long barrel and long sight radius. A scope makes sight radius a moot point when it is being used to in testing both a long barrel and shorter barrel are being for group size ability. Barrel material is not a big deal unless (a) a serious competition shooter on the circuit or (b) belt fed full auto. Shooter ability is the single biggest factor in group size. After that comes the mechanical items like ammo, free float and trigger. Quoted:
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So I guess if I had a custom load, and the skill, I could be proficient at 400-500 yards with a 16" barrel. I don't have the skill sadly and I'm assuming it will be easier on me to be on the paper at those ranges. Is that a fact that all agree with? No one mentioned suggestions on Barrel material to get other than the colt, fn, and palmeto arms premium, so I'm guessing I'm good to go with that? I read in the faq there is lots of kinds. Does the bolt carrier group and charging handle make a difference? How much of a difference does a free float rail vs the plain plastic that comes on the fn and colt A4's? Thanks all for the help! Cliff notes for you; The Marines shoot qualification out to 500 meters with iron sights. Any one can learn and in less time than they thought.. With iron sight a longer sight radius makes shooting accurately easier than with a short sight radius. In discussion we often loose sight (no pun intended) of the critical difference between the terms long barrel and long sight radius. A scope makes sight radius a moot point when it is being used to in testing both a long barrel and shorter barrel are being for group size ability. Barrel material is not a big deal unless (a) a serious competition shooter on the circuit or (b) belt fed full auto. Shooter ability is the single biggest factor in group size. After that comes the mechanical items like ammo, free float and trigger. Bingo! Well said. I'm not recommending it, but with today's accessories and variety you could theoretically have a sight radius that is longer than the barrel. Again, I'm not recommending this, but you could put a rifle length free float hand guard on a pistol length barrel. Your hand would be in a lot of pain from the muzzle blast, but you could do it. |
| Welcome. If you are starting out with a 20" there is a good chance you will build something smaller down the road. My recommendation to a new shooter would be to go carbine length or smaller and then assess whether a longer barrel profile is necessary. Do you have some place that you can shoot out to 400 yards? The ranges I go to only allow out to 200 yards. If I could only have one 5.56 weapon, it would be my 11.5". I would also highly recommend that you build it yourself. This will force you to learn about all the parts, ask questions, get advice, and understand the weapon system. This site is obviously one of your best resources for getting that done. |
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Barrel length is a tricky subject. Some shooters seem to believe you can keep going infinitely lighter and shorter with barrels without any loss in accuracy. At some point, you will lose accuracy. Just compare a pistol with a 3" barrel and a 6" barrel to find out.
Not much scientific testing has been done about how short a barrel must be before you lose significant accuracy. The only scientific testing I'm aware of tested .308 ammo and found no significant difference in accuracy even at long ranges while taking a barrel from 26" to 13.5". I've never seen anything that compared accuracy in barrels below 13.5" to long barrels. It's probably a safe bet that you can go as low as 14.5" with a barrel without any loss in inherent accuracy as compared to a 20" barrel. You will lose some velocity, however. But here's the problem. A hot barrel will not shoot accurately. The more mass a barrel has the more rounds you can put through it quickly without it heating up enough to decrease its accuracy. The longer and thicker a barrel is the more mass it has. The shorter and thinner it is, the less mass it has. All other things being equal, you can probably shoot the first three rounds from a 14.5" pencil barrel as accurately as you can the first three from a 24" bull barrel. Put 20 rounds or so through both barrels in under five minutes, and you'll probably start to see the pencil's groups open up significantly while the bull's stay the same. If you like shooting large targets at short ranges, this probably won't bother you. If you like shooting small targets 100 yards out and beyond, it probably will bother you. It's all a trade off. Since this is your first AR, just get the barrel you really want now. There is no "best," so stop worrying about it. For your next AR, get the barrel you really want at that time. If I could only have one semi-auto rifle, I would get an 18" SPR barrel. But since I can own more than one, I will probably never have an 18" SPR. |
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Barrel length is a tricky subject. Some shooters seem to believe you can keep going infinitely lighter and shorter with barrels without any loss in accuracy. At some point, you will lose accuracy. Just compare a pistol with a 3" barrel and a 6" barrel to find out. Not much scientific testing has been done about how short a barrel must be before you lose significant accuracy. The only scientific testing I'm aware of tested .308 ammo and found no significant difference in accuracy even at long ranges while taking a barrel from 26" to 13.5". I've never seen anything that compared accuracy in barrels below 13.5" to long barrels. It's probably a safe bet that you can go as low as 14.5" with a barrel without any loss in inherent accuracy as compared to a 20" barrel. You will lose some velocity, however. But here's the problem. A hot barrel will not shoot accurately. The more mass a barrel has the more rounds you can put through it quickly without it heating up enough to decrease its accuracy. The longer and thicker a barrel is the more mass it has. The shorter and thinner it is, the less mass it has. All other things being equal, you can probably shoot the first three rounds from a 14.5" pencil barrel as accurately as you can the first three from a 24" bull barrel. Put 20 rounds or so through both barrels in under five minutes, and you'll probably start to see the pencil's groups open up significantly while the bull's stay the same. If you like shooting large targets at short ranges, this probably won't bother you. If you like shooting small targets 100 yards out and beyond, it probably will bother you. It's all a trade off. Since this is your first AR, just get the barrel you really want now. There is no "best," so stop worrying about it. For your next AR, get the barrel you really want at that time. If I could only have one semi-auto rifle, I would get an 18" SPR barrel. But since I can own more than one, I will probably never have an 18" SPR. My 11.5 and 10.5" ARs are just as accurate as my 14.7". 16" and 20" are. The only thing you lose with shortening the barrel is velocity, and at some point reliability. I agree that barrel profile is very important but it must be weighed against ease of carry. If you were bench shooting only an HBAR is perfect, if I have to go on long treks I take my lightweight, which is just slightly heavier than a pencil barrel. For general use I prefer, a govt, medium, or A2 profile or even a light weight since I have no FA lowers. |
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So I guess if I had a custom load, and the skill, I could be proficient at 400-500 yards with a 16" barrel. I don't have the skill sadly and I'm assuming it will be easier on me to be on the paper at those ranges. Is that a fact that all agree with? No one mentioned suggestions on Barrel material to get other than the colt, fn, and palmeto arms premium, so I'm guessing I'm good to go with that? I read in the faq there is lots of kinds. Does the bolt carrier group and charging handle make a difference? How much of a difference does a free float rail vs the plain plastic that comes on the fn and colt A4's? Thanks all for the help! Um... Kreiger barrels are good, Shilen... I like the Old Masters. IMHO; the Wylde chamberings are a gaining favor as an accuracy edge. SS seems to be the way to go as chrome linings are more for corrosion resistance, debateable if the chrome lining detracts from accuracy, but it may not help. BCG won't do much for accuracy, it just gets the bolt to the breech. You could go with TiNitride or Boron coated though for extra smoothness right off the bat. After 5K rounds that phosphate coated one will be slick though! A nice charging handle would be more comfortable- pick Bravo Company or Rainier Arms for a tactile improvement over the stock skinny handle. Free loating the barrel is always a good idea, pick a handguard with a profile you like. And get some 10 rd. magazines- they let your rifle hug a sled or sandbags or whatever without stacking for height like a 30 rounder will. 20 rounders can kind of help with support, but the 10's are just a bit longer than the magwell. |
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Barrel length is a tricky subject. Some shooters seem to believe you can keep going infinitely lighter and shorter with barrels without any loss in accuracy. At some point, you will lose accuracy. Just compare a pistol with a 3" barrel and a 6" barrel to find out. Not much scientific testing has been done about how short a barrel must be before you lose significant accuracy. The only scientific testing I'm aware of tested .308 ammo and found no significant difference in accuracy even at long ranges while taking a barrel from 26" to 13.5". I've never seen anything that compared accuracy in barrels below 13.5" to long barrels. It's probably a safe bet that you can go as low as 14.5" with a barrel without any loss in inherent accuracy as compared to a 20" barrel. You will lose some velocity, however. But here's the problem. A hot barrel will not shoot accurately. The more mass a barrel has the more rounds you can put through it quickly without it heating up enough to decrease its accuracy. The longer and thicker a barrel is the more mass it has. The shorter and thinner it is, the less mass it has. All other things being equal, you can probably shoot the first three rounds from a 14.5" pencil barrel as accurately as you can the first three from a 24" bull barrel. Put 20 rounds or so through both barrels in under five minutes, and you'll probably start to see the pencil's groups open up significantly while the bull's stay the same. If you like shooting large targets at short ranges, this probably won't bother you. If you like shooting small targets 100 yards out and beyond, it probably will bother you. It's all a trade off. Since this is your first AR, just get the barrel you really want now. There is no "best," so stop worrying about it. For your next AR, get the barrel you really want at that time. If I could only have one semi-auto rifle, I would get an 18" SPR barrel. But since I can own more than one, I will probably never have an 18" SPR. The bold comment is why it's important to differentiate between firearm accuracy and shooter accuracy. A 3" barrel is not inherently less accurate than a 6" barrel. The shorter sight radius of the shorter firearm will lend itself to a more difficult job of aiming the gun and therefore will open up the shooting groups because of shooter errors. All of which completely disappears when using a scope mounted on a rifle. There is no such thing as sight radius with a properly zero'd scope. Barrel length, as an isolated parameter, is not relevant to accuracy of the firearm. It is relevant in some ways to the accuracy of the shooter. Longer sight radius makes it easier to aim a rifle using iron sights, but it doesn't affect the trajectory of the bullet. An accurate rifle will reproduce a trajectory consistently. An accurate shooter will know his trajectory and aim appropriately. Scopes are independent of sight radius. Assuming identical cartridges, a shorter barrel will mean lower velocity which means more drop at distance and potentially greater affect of wind on the round. However, you can correct for some of that by custom loading your round to find the most accurate combination of elements. Not arguing with you by the way, just letting my left brained side take off. Now the part no one wants to accept. I read an article written by former Ranger sniper trainer Ryan Cleckner. It was very interesting and eye opening. One of the comments he makes is that a shorter barrel may actually have side effects that were not previously thought of. For instance, one goal of an accuracy shooter is to have a very stiff barrel for the reasons you mention. Harmonics, heat, barrel whip, etc, etc. A shorter barrel, with no other parameters changed will be stiffer. His example below: "But when taking the entire length into account, the overall effect is a stiffer barrel. Think about a 2 inch stick that is just stiff enough to be unbreakable. Now, take a stick of the same diameter with a length of 12 inches…. it would be much easier to break. Each individual inch of the two sticks share the same rigidity, but the longer stick allows more leverage to be imparted on the stick and therefore nets less overall stiffness and more leverage." Once he found a load that pushed a velocity he could live with and was accurate, Cleckner used an 18" barrel where the traditional thought was a 26" barrel was needed. He actually took a 26" barreled Remington 700 PSS and cut it down to 18". He saw the group drop from 1" at 100yds to 1/2" at 100yds. Mainly because of the above mentioned stiffness increase. He did have a velocity drop and compensated by learning the new trajectories. He was able to match the performance of the snipers shooting 920 yds quals with 26" barrels, but with his 18" barrel. Which was lighter and ended up being easier to maneuver. |
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Mobiushky, are you seriously suggesting that a 3" barrel will be just as accurate as a 20" barrel at 100+ yards if you have a scope on it and everything else is equal?
If that's not what you're suggesting, I don't really see your point since everything you said is completely consistent with what I said, right down to the fact that if I had to pick one barrel, I'd pick an 18" SPR, just like the Ranger you referred to. My point about pistol barrel length related to the notion that some AR shooters seem to argue that there's no limit to how short you can make a barrel without losing accuracy. I've seen zero data to support this proposition. The shortest testing I've seen is no loss in accuracy for .308 down to 13.5". My point is that there is such a thing as too short for accuracy purposes. Personally, I would stop at 14.5" for a 5.56mm. I'll believe going down to 10" or so doesn't harm longer range accuracy when I see scientific testing to verify that, people winning precision rifle matches with SBRs, or even people posting pictures of multiple, 5+ shot sub-moa groups at 100 yards and beyond. For what it's worth, I don't see anything below 14.5" in the MOA All Day challenge on this forum. How short can you go is a very interesting question. It's clearly shorter than people used to think. However, I just haven't seen any data or real-world examples of good, consistent 100+ yard accuracy from 5.56mm barrels shorter than 14.5". |
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Mobiushky, are you seriously suggesting that a 3" barrel will be just as accurate as a 20" barrel at 100+ yards if you have a scope on it and everything else is equal? If that's not what you're suggesting, I don't really see your point since everything you said is completely consistent with what I said, right down to the fact that if I had to pick one barrel, I'd pick an 18" SPR, just like the Ranger you referred to. My point about pistol barrel length related to the notion that some AR shooters seem to argue that there's no limit to how short you can make a barrel without losing accuracy. I've seen zero data to support this proposition. The shortest testing I've seen is no loss in accuracy for .308 down to 13.5". My point is that there is such a thing as too short for accuracy purposes. Personally, I would stop at 14.5" for a 5.56mm. I'll believe going down to 10" or so doesn't harm longer range accuracy when I see scientific testing to verify that, people winning precision rifle matches with SBRs, or even people posting pictures of multiple, 5+ shot sub-moa groups at 100 yards and beyond. For what it's worth, I don't see anything below 14.5" in the MOA All Day challenge on this forum. How short can you go is a very interesting question. It's clearly shorter than people used to think. However, I just haven't seen any data or real-world examples of good, consistent 100+ yard accuracy from 5.56mm barrels shorter than 14.5". Well to be accurate (pun intended) I mentioned a 3" barrel and a 6" barrel. But, the more important question is why wouldn't it? What about the physics of a barrel's length, only the length, changes the inherent accuracy of a firearm? Ignoring the wall thickness, the weight, the contour, the material, the lining, the crown, the flex, the shooter, the bullet, the powder, the twist rate, all of those things and focusing purely on the overall length of the barrel. Pretend that you have 2 barrels that are 30 feet in diameter. One is 10" long the other is 20" long. The diameter is for weight and rigidity. When you shoot, the barrel is not going to move and not going to flex. Perfectly rigid, no recoil. You have complete control over aiming both perfectly. The cartridge is set up so that when it exits the barrel the velocity of the round is identical out of both barrels. All things are identical, the only variable is the barrel length. We know the velocity will be reduced assuming identical cartridges, but why would the length affect accuracy? Don't think sight radius because that is only related to length because of real-estate on the firearm. So yeah, a longer barrel allows a longer sight radius. But there is nothing that the length imparts that makes the firearm more accurate. Now, on the other hand, a firearm with a 3" barrel will be more difficult, from a shooters perspective, to hit that target for all of the classic reasons. Less weight will cause shift in the gun when the trigger is pulled. A simple jerk when pulling the trigger causes the barrel to shift ever so slightly. etc. My contention is pretty much the same as yours I think. IE, people spend SO much time worry about the little things "barrel length" and ignore the important things that make up an accurate shooter. So let's move back from the ridiculous to reality. What does it really matter if you choose an 18" barrel or a 20" barrel? Nothing. In fact, for the OP's purposes, a typical 16" barrel would be fine at 4-500 meters. Is it easier to shoot accurately with a longer barrel? Yes. It's easier to accurately shoot a 20" rifle than a 3" rifle. But that's for the shooter, not the rifle. So why do the MOA shooters not use 3" rifles? 2 reasons, persistent myths and people are not perfect and we will use whatever makes us work the least. (that's not a bad thing, just an understanding of human nature) Longer barrels make it so you have less compensation for drop which means you have less work to get that shot right. So it's better for the shooter. But it's not a "more accurate" rifle. It's a more accurate shooter. Perhaps when you speak about accuracy, you are meaning that people we (people) are more accurate with a longer barrel? And that I would concede. But I'm trying to explain the disconnect we have that some how a longer barrel is by default more accurate. It's not., it's just easier to shoot. BTW, to argue the flip side, squeezing every drop of velocity out of a bullet is a good thing. And a longer barrel makes that easier to do also. One more thing. Part of the reason we don't see much below 14.5" is because of the gun laws if you think about it. It's not all that easy to build an SBR just to test accuracy. |
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Those are excellent points, Mobiushky.
From a physics standpoint, I think short barrels have to introduce rotational deficiencies at some point. A 1:7 twist barrel will require at least seven inches to spin the bullet once. I think a bullet only given a half spin or so out of a barrel, especially at reduced velocities, is not going to have enough rotational energy imparted to it to fly very straight for long. Here's a link to an interesting study: http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1093 The authors conclude that the lack of velocity imparted to M855 fired from short barrels negatively impacts rotational energy imparted to the bullet and thus bullet stability. To be fair, however, it appears that the authors did not test accuracy. The effects of barrel stiffness on accuracy are also hotly debated. Personally, I think stiffness is overrated. Too many high-powered hunting rifles shoot too accurately with light, long barrels for barrel flex to be all that detrimental to accuracy. A lot of this gets back to the lack of scientific testing for all things shooting. Most shooting "science" is trial and error and guess work passed off as the equivalent of scientifically tested hypotheses. The result is there's a lot of BS and misinformation passed around among shooters. There's nothing wrong with speculation as long as it's identified as such, as I tried to do with barrel length and twist rate. Another good example is barrel heat's effect on accuracy. Everyone agrees too much heat opens up groups. However, try to find a consensus on why this happens. |
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RogueSpear2023, what kind of groups do you get from your short barrels (the 11.5" and 10.5") at 100 and beyond? And how many shots do you put in your groups? I've always been curious about just how much you can wring out of a short barrel. If I avg them out 2-4" MOA @100yds but I am also shooting XM193 and 62 gr FMJ, not match ammo, I could probably do a bit better if I was. 5 shots per group. I don't usually shot much past 100yrds I have a few times, I can hit a 9" paper plate at 200yds. But my primary goal for the pistol was short range HD accuarcy Its a 11.5" BCM Chrome lined BFH 14.7" PSA Chrome lined FN Machine gun steel 16" DPMS Phosphate 20" DMPS Phosphate I will agree that super short barrels are probably not going to do do well. But as long as you are over the 10.5" having shot 10.5" barrels with similar results it doesn't really seem to matter. Both the 10.5" and my 11.5" are pistols with a sig brace. You also realize cttb that M855 is probably one of the least accurate ammos to test, other than maybe Wolf or TULA. This thread has seemed to get awfully technical for a basic question forum? |
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One thing about that rotation point. We have to keep in mind the law of conservation of angular momentum. Once the bullet leaves it will be spinning at exactly the turns ratio the barrel imparts, no more no less. Even if the barrel is not a multiple of the twist rate (7" here) it will still be rotating at that speed regardless of the number of turns it actually achieves in the barrel. And due to the conservation of angular momentum, will maintain that spin rate until acted on by external forces. Those forces will be the same whether the bullet has completed one rotation or 50 inside the barrel. The external forces are drag and friction of the air, possibly Coriolis but that doesn't really play into a shot of 500 yards. The only way that changes is if you have a graduated twist rate. In other words it slowly ramps from no twist to a higher speed twist at the crown, but I doubt these barrels have that. To simplify, it doesn't matter if the bullet goes through one full twist or 1 half of a twist. The bullet will continue twisting at the final twist rate (1:7) until drag and air friction sufficiently slow it down. If that weren't true, then the bullet would have to be spinning at a slower rate in the barrel than the rifling. Which would mean serious smearing of copper. Essentially an entire layer of metal would be sheared off the bullet. Which could happen if the rifling isn't aggressive enough, but that's a shot out barrel.
Think about this, how long inside a barrel does it take for the bullet to catch up to the rifling? Until that point, there is copper on barrel smearing. As soon as the bullet has caught up, it's spinning at the twist rate of the barrel and will continue to do so. The only way this doesn't work is with a non-solid projectile. One where the internal is not solid and can free float independent of the skin. then it will take time for the internal to be spinning at the same speed as the external. But we don't have that problem. I have a LOT of theories as to the reasoning behind the changes in accuracy based on physics of the system. But I doubt people want to be bored to death about that. But back to the laws, think of this. If you are a long distance shooting competitor (even a 3 gun guy works here) are you going to file for and get a tax stamp for an SBR to take around the country for your competitions? It's a hassle. You have to file all kinds of paperwork every time you take it out of state. So it's easier to just use a barrel that meets the laws. So you probably aren't going to find a lot of data on competitions using less than 16" barrels anywhere. If you ever get bored, look into bench rest unlimited division rail guns. Those guys shoot 0.108 MOA! Unreal. ETA: Lilja makes barrels for the unlimited guns. Here's a great article that explains a LOT of fascinating stuff. http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/rifle_barrel_accurate.htm |
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If I avg them out 2-4" MOA @100yds but I am also shooting XM193 and 62 gr FMJ, not match ammo, I could probably do a bit better if I was. 5 shots per group. I don't usually shot much past 100yrds I have a few times, I can hit a 9" paper plate at 200yds. But my primary goal for the pistol was short range HD accuarcy Its a 11.5" BCM Chrome lined BFH 14.7" PSA Chrome lined FN Machine gun steel 16" DPMS Phosphate 20" DMPS Phosphate I will agree that super short barrels are probably not going to do do well. But as long as you are over the 10.5" having shot 10.5" barrels with similar results it doesn't really seem to matter. Both the 10.5" and my 11.5" are pistols with a sig brace. You also realize cttb that M855 is probably one of the least accurate ammos to test, other than maybe Wolf or TULA. This thread has seemed to get awfully technical for a basic question forum? Quoted:
Quoted:
RogueSpear2023, what kind of groups do you get from your short barrels (the 11.5" and 10.5") at 100 and beyond? And how many shots do you put in your groups? I've always been curious about just how much you can wring out of a short barrel. If I avg them out 2-4" MOA @100yds but I am also shooting XM193 and 62 gr FMJ, not match ammo, I could probably do a bit better if I was. 5 shots per group. I don't usually shot much past 100yrds I have a few times, I can hit a 9" paper plate at 200yds. But my primary goal for the pistol was short range HD accuarcy Its a 11.5" BCM Chrome lined BFH 14.7" PSA Chrome lined FN Machine gun steel 16" DPMS Phosphate 20" DMPS Phosphate I will agree that super short barrels are probably not going to do do well. But as long as you are over the 10.5" having shot 10.5" barrels with similar results it doesn't really seem to matter. Both the 10.5" and my 11.5" are pistols with a sig brace. You also realize cttb that M855 is probably one of the least accurate ammos to test, other than maybe Wolf or TULA. This thread has seemed to get awfully technical for a basic question forum? Sorry. LOL. I'm a physics nerd at heart. It tends to leak out frequently. |
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So that said I've done some research and found a couple of options I like. Colt makes the AR15A4 and there is the new FN15's. They are each right at $1000.Though I'm worried the colt will have a strange pin system. I've found it hard to find other 20" complete rifles for sale. So now I'm thinking about buying a complete lower and a complete upper. Does anyone have any tips on that? Can I buy a lower with a good trigger ready to go or are they typically just standard? I live not far from pallmetto arms and they have good deals on complete lowers. But I would like to have a good brand on my rifle. Any thoughts on that? Thanks all for helping me learn more and more about these. Nate Nate, we kind of went down the fun barrel length rabbit hole. But to get back to some of your original questions, if I were you I would go get the cheapest complete lower Palmetto State Armory has, put a good trigger in it (Geissele G2S is nice one at a decent price), and get whatever complete upper floats your boat the most. Personally, I would get a flat top upper with a decent barrel and free float handguard with a rail and put some flip up iron sights on the rails. You'll shooting a very nice rifle right away for $1,000 or so that you can easily continue to upgrade with optics, better stocks, grips, and other fun accessories. |
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