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Posted: 8/29/2012 1:55:17 PM EDT
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Im starting my first build. Goal is to build a nice simple target A2
Bought an Aero Precision lower, and it should be at my local FFL tomorrow. As im sure many of you know, there are a million AR parts and choices. This is often nice as it allows all kinds of custom build, but for a first timer it can be hard to not get caught up in a spec war and go blind with options. I dont want to say its a budget build, I think im more focused on value I am in NYS so I also have to make sure that everything meets the legal too. Here is what Im thinking and the questions I have so far -A2 stock, are they all the same? Is one better for a target rifle? -20in chrome barrel, Im thinking 1-7. Im thinking Hbar/heavy barrel. I think a bull/varmit will be to heavy and not worth it. Am I wrong? -forged A2 front sight -Not sure about muzzle brake yet. Part of me doesnt want anything at all. Other part wants a functional brake, cant have a flash hider in NYS -Would like a nice trigger, might buy a parts lower kit without a trigger....but then what trigger should I get? -Chrome bolt worth it? -Anything to look for special with sights? -No tacticool hand guards or anything. I would like something full floating though. Or my indulge myself and get triangle hand guards even though I know they are not "correct" for a A2 Are all parts kits created equal in the same way they there really is not much difference in forged lowers? Any place that can put together a custom rifle kit with my specs? Am i missing the point on some of the specs? What do you guys feel is important to have a nice |
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A2 Stock: apparently not created equal. Get a good one with metal trad door if you can.
Barrel: Maybe consider a Stainless Steel 1 in 8" twist, and personally I prefer the blackened ones (more $$$). Fulton Armory has some nice ones. So does Rock River. A2 front sight: Definitely, maybe windage adjustable if you like. Do the brake if you can get something that looks decent (or move ;) Many options for the trigger...you'll want something decent for better accuracy. Giselle is preferred on this board, but I use RRA 2 stage and love it. There are many other offerings, CMMG, Spikes, too dam many to list. And yes you can purchase your LPK with a good trigger, or with none at all. If you are building a nice gun, chrome the bolt group. Easier to clean. Up to you, many arguments can be heard on both sides. Sights: Get NM 1/4 MOA, I think they have a removable hood. Handguard: get the full float DCM type, I think White Oak has some IIRC. Looks like a normal A2, but is hidden. So in summary, yes I like National Match uppers...that is basically what I have described. You could buy it just like that, or piece it together your self if you have the tools. Not trying to start any arguments, just my opinion. Welcome to The Jungle. |
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The DPMS DCM Rifle is very close to what you want and is considered by many to be a very good value for the money.
I wouldn't use a chrome lined barrel on a "Target" AR––I'd use a good target barrel from a reputable manufacturer. What is your budget? IMO your hard earned cash is best spent on a good barrel and trigger. I like Krieger barrels and Geissele High Speed Match triggers, but they ain't cheap. ETA, you can use 5.56 in a barrel with a Wylde chamber. If you want to splurge, get a Krieger and pay them to do their "complete fitting". LINK That includes 5.56 Match or .223 Wylde chambering and assembly of your upper. You'll only be "building" the lower though, if you go that route. Again, not cheap. HERE is more information on what makes Krieger barrels special. |
| RRA NM upper or Armalite NM upper would work without breaking the bank. If getting serious about targets White Oak Armament barrel is probably the biggest bang for the bucks. Any true milspec A-2 upper will work but you will have to install NM sights if desired. Think I'd build or buy something of upper end quality and shoot it. Then decide what will compliment your advancement. A good used A-2 surplus upper would get you off the bench and in the game. Chrome BCG is nice for cleaning and Young NM is about as good as it gets. RRA AR-15 BCG in chrome can be had pretty cheap on the EE most any time. As stated A-2 stock with metal hardware is the way to go. For some the pull is a little long so you might also want to consider an A-1 stock. I personally prefer earlier A-1 stocks without the trap door. Trap door is nice for adding weight on pure target rifle. I modify my own single stage FCG's from Colt components but you will more than likely get what you pay for in a competition FCG. Real trick is to learn how to shoot what you build. Good luck. |
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Or this
http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=EMK017&ReturnUrl=Categories.aspx?Category=9f392253-7784-4324-9086-1bf1ceb2b5bb Heard the some of the buffers are better then others? In that case am I better off buying the armalite stock(not the link, same stock but just the stock) and then buying a buffer parts kit? If so what buffer? |
| Rifle buffer is a rifle buffer in my opinion. Most come from the same supplier and actually it's the same with stocks. Hardware is usually the difference. Some hardware is genuine USGI original metal and some is import. Charleyssurplus A-1 trap door govt repack is hard to beat for $29.95 with NOS hardware or mine was). Many shooters prefer the A-1 stock to the A-2 unless 6 ft plus for better length of pull and cheek weld. Really all in what one gets used to. PSA has a sale for the holiday on a milspec rifle buffer tube at $11.95 and PSA buffer would be as good as any and you will need a spacer if using A-2. Rifle length buffer is about as heavy as they get. Carbine buffer can get lots of different opinions. If A-2 is absolutely desired I wouldn't be afraid to call gunnyssurplus for authentic A-2. Personally wouldn't spend $50 plus on just an A-2 stock. |
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Surplus stock sounds like a great plan. Keeps the cost way down and I figure they are the same if not better quality, so thats in keeping with the good value plan.
Next is a LPK. A buddy has a DPMS kit that he will sell to me cheap, but I have read about the roll pins being kinda a pain in the butt? Seem to read that guys prefer the RRA LPK. Or is all this like the age old chevy vs ford debate? Ive been looking at those match/competition barrels, wow they seem nice. $5-600 for a barrel isnt really in the cards right now though. Its not so much the money aspect its more the fact that Im not sure I would even notice the difference. The way I figure I am the weak link as far as good shooting right now. No real strict budget cap at the moment. just plan to take my time and slowly build up a nice rifle. The cheap part of me wants to be sub $700, but thats just a stupid dream, realistically I assume I will be spending north of a grand by the time I am done. |
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Surplus stock sounds like a great plan. Keeps the cost way down and I figure they are the same if not better quality, so thats in keeping with the good value plan. I wouldn't monkey with that. Get the Palmetto State Armory A2 buttstock kit. It's on special for $56 or so and it's a real one.....nothing else to buy....complete kit. I just rec'd one. Next is a LPK. A buddy has a DPMS kit that he will sell to me cheap, but I have read about the roll pins being kinda a pain in the butt? Seem to read that guys prefer the RRA LPK. Or is all this like the age old chevy vs ford debate?
Don't buy the DPMS LPK. Less than 50-50 chance that you will get a good trigger with that LPK. Palmetto has the best selection of LPKs....stripped, basic, enhanced....you name it and for very reasonable prices. You can get an enhanced LPK with a Geissele trigger of your choice. Ive been looking at those match/competition barrels, wow they seem nice. $5-600 for a barrel isnt really in the cards right now though. Its not so much the money aspect its more the fact that Im not sure I would even notice the difference. The way I figure I am the weak link as far as good shooting right now.
For what you want to build, a White Oak Armament barrel would be your best bet. They are CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) specialists and just plain have the goods for that. You don't want a chrome lined barrel....that is for fighting guns....high volume....high rate of fire. For a precision gun you want stainless and WOA has stainless 20" CMP barrels. The FSB will be CMP correct in that they are windage adjustable. If you are unsure about a muzzle device, just have them thread the muzzle and provide a thread protector. John Holliger/WOA also has jazzed up rear sights and free floated A2 handguards. The floated A2 handguards are a must if you want to compete. WOA represents the price-performance sweet spot for the type of rifle that you want to build. I would keep this rig CMP compliant because someday you may want to compete with it. Make sure that your trigger pull is legal weight. Here's the CMP/DCM sub forum.... |
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Just looked at the price of the Palmetto State Armory and yes that seems like the way to go.
Also checked out the sale on the LPK and Triggers. Again Im uneducated on most of this. I was told that the LPK were mostly the same. And that the factory triggers were better then I was as a shooter. Was also told that just a polish of the factory trigger was the way to go??? But then again they did not say what factory that was out of. |
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Just looked at the price of the Palmetto State Armory and yes that seems like the way to go. Also checked out the sale on the LPK and Triggers. Again Im uneducated on most of this. I was told that the LPK were mostly the same. And that the factory triggers were better then I was as a shooter. Was also told that just a polish of the factory trigger was the way to go??? But then again they did not say what factory that was out of. With any of the "mil-spec" triggers expect a heavy pull weight....6.5 to 7 lbs or more. The crappier ones are gritty and heavier yet. Since this is a precision build you should allocate funds funds for a good trigger. |
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That is a great point and I understand what you mean.
I think any DIY modifications to the "stock" trigger would scare me a bit to much. And even more so when you think about what the prices are on the PSA enhanced lowers What would you go with? QMS or ACT QMS http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/parts-kits/enhanced-lpk-s/palmetto-state-armory-classic-qms-lpk.html ACT http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/parts-kits/enhanced-lpk-s/palmetto-state-armory-classic-act-lpk.html Or were you more talking about $200+ Geissele? I have been shooting targets for a little while, but im still learning. I would like something to "grow" into, but dont feel like I need a pro top dollar set up Thanks so much for the help and guidance |
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That is a great point and I understand what you mean. I think any DIY modifications to the "stock" trigger would scare me a bit to much. And even more so when you think about what the prices are on the PSA enhanced lowers What would you go with? QMS or ACT QMS http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/parts-kits/enhanced-lpk-s/palmetto-state-armory-classic-qms-lpk.html ACT http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/parts-kits/enhanced-lpk-s/palmetto-state-armory-classic-act-lpk.html Or were you more talking about $200+ Geissele? I have been shooting targets for a little while, but im still learning. I would like something to "grow" into, but dont feel like I need a pro top dollar set up Thanks so much for the help and guidance Either one of those but I would add a JP trigger spring set ($10.00) to get a lighter pull. The ACT and QMS are meant to be a guarantee of getting a clean breaking mil spec trigger and nothing more. |
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I would look at a NM barrel assembly from Armalite.
http://www.armalite.com/ You can get just the barrel assembly or the complete upper, Wylde chamber for both .223 and 5.56, NM sights, free-float hand guard, 1/8 twist, etc. You can build a lower, but get a target trigger. If you do not want a true NM rifle, the Armalite barrel kit for their standard A2 has a mid weight barrel which is not as heavy as a HBAR, but is more stable than a GI barrel. I have one on an otherwise standard A2 and like it very much. It is only 1/9 twist, but for range plinking 55 gr it works fine. It is a very nice, accurate barrel for a fair price. In general, I have found Armalite barrel assembly to be a good deal. They are not 1/7, but the quality of the barrels is very high for the price of the kit. I prefer 1/8 or 1/9 for target shooting. My local range only goes to 200 yards. Not much point in shooting 90 gr there. 55-68 gr bullets work fine in 1/9 barrels. Armalite barrels have M4 cuts, so you need an A2 upper with M4 cuts, if possible. Traditional A2 uppers do not have them, but they are available. Just saying - match the upper to the barrel. |
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This really looks like the way to go
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17520&cat=259&page=1 Not sure if I would be able to piece that kit or something similar to it for less or not. In my searchings around for ways to piece it together I come across alot of talk about "M4 Feed Ramps" As always please forgive my ignorance, but what are they? What do they do for the rifle and what do I need to understand about them. I ask mostly because I see stripped uppers that list them with and without the M4 ramps. So I figure I should get educated on what they are and what they mean to my build |
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Any place that can put together a custom rifle kit with my specs? my 2c for your specs i would buy a geisselle ssa-e and drop that in you your aero-p lower. get an a2 stock kit from psa or some such, then get the Armalite clamp-on a2-style fsb and a bravo bca. then call frank white at compass lake engineering and get a complete camp perry float-tube upper from him using a krieger 1/7.7 stainless blank sending him your armalite fsb and bolt for headspacing. for target use i would go with a thread protector instead of a fh, but if you have to have one, i prefer the a1 instead of the a2.... that'll be one heavy sumbitch but will drive tacks if you do your part... |
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Any place that can put together a custom rifle kit with my specs? my 2c for your specs i would buy a geisselle ssa-e and drop that in you your aero-p lower. get an a2 stock kit from psa or some such, then get the Armalite clamp-on a2-style fsb and a bravo bca. then call frank white at compass lake engineering and get a complete camp perry float-tube upper from him using a krieger 1/7.7 stainless blank sending him your armalite fsb and bolt for headspacing. for target use i would go with a thread protector instead of a fh, but if you have to have one, i prefer the a1 instead of the a2.... that'll be one heavy sumbitch but will drive tacks if you do your part... I went with the ACT trigger and A2 stock. I will have to read up on the compass lake engineering stuff. Really my research as far as uppers has only just begone. As I said I am no expert marksmen so I dont need pro equipment, but want something that I will not "out grow" fast if that makes any sense |
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Any place that can put together a custom rifle kit with my specs? my 2c for your specs i would buy a geisselle ssa-e and drop that in you your aero-p lower. get an a2 stock kit from psa or some such, then get the Armalite clamp-on a2-style fsb and a bravo bca. then call frank white at compass lake engineering and get a complete camp perry float-tube upper from him using a krieger 1/7.7 stainless blank sending him your armalite fsb and bolt for headspacing. for target use i would go with a thread protector instead of a fh, but if you have to have one, i prefer the a1 instead of the a2.... that'll be one heavy sumbitch but will drive tacks if you do your part... I went with the ACT trigger and A2 stock. I will have to read up on the compass lake engineering stuff. Really my research as far as uppers has only just begone. As I said I am no expert marksmen so I dont need pro equipment, but want something that I will not "out grow" fast if that makes any sense CLE is good stuff. They are DCM/CMP specialists as well. If I was using CLE, I wouldn't mess with the Armalite A2 FSB. Just let them do a CMP-type FSB with machined flats on the barrel.....same as WOA. A positive, windage-adjustable FSB. |
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Sounds like you're off to a decent start.
A competition FSB has both a windage adjustment and elevation adjustment. Standard military only has elevation. A-2 service competition rifle will use military style rear sights. NM= National match 1/4" adjustments opposed to military 1/2" adjustments. Makes a difference when fine tuning the ammo. White Oak Armament is high quality for pretty decent coins, Compass Lake/Krieger is very high quality for more coins. Either is better than most will ever shoot without lots and lots of practice and the preference of most going to the next level in service rifle competition. I used a BM DCM on my service rifle build but actually hadn't heard of White Oak back then and couldn't afford a Krieger. Not to say someone who really knows what they are doing can't achieve more than adequate results with most anything that isn't worn slam out but it's like most any hobby. If one has the coins they buy the better parts, if not make it work until you can afford better pieces. Same with bowling, golf, race cars, etc. Good thing about AR parts is they hold decent re-sale value and usually sell pretty quick. M-4 ramps are just a larger cut taken out of the receiver and barrel extension to accomodate the longer projectiles 75 gr and heavier usually. Depending on ammo it may or may not be important. Most anything current production is gonna have M-4 ramps/cuts. Places like RRA are back ordered because they sell a decent product for the coins. The competition barrel mfgs work the same and are busiest during the warmer months. Very limited competition shooting during inclimate weather as a general rule. Politics will be in another two months minimum and the politicians don't dare go after guns until the economy returns from it's Great Depression comparisons. Your're gonna need a vice, clam shell, high temp grease and a barrel wrench to do your own upper/barrel installs. Should already have a roll pin punch set and mallet/hammer and flat screwdriver for lower install. Can use the roll pin punch for the gas tube roll pin. Sounds more difficult than it really is. Also check the hometown section at top of page. Lots of members out there willing to lend a helping hand and make new friends. Only takes someone who knows what they are doing 1-2 hrs to build an AR from parts, function tested and many times sighted in ready to go. Again good luck. |
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Thanks for the M4 ramp and barrel info
Waiting for the lower parts to come in, so I figured it was time to start thinking about the upper. I really like that white oak set up, well everything but the price. So what are things to look at that go into a quality upper? I assume the barrel is a huge part, the white oak is $240, and that seems like a screaming deal when compared to "normal" barrels. Are all stripped uppers the same in the same way the lowers are? I see FN lowers sub $75 on gunbroker from time to time. Is that a place I can save a few bucks? Anyone have a good read or want to educate me on BCGs? Whats the difference, what to look for and what makes a difference in accuracy |
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Forged uppers are for the most part a commodity part now.
Not much difference between brands except finish and that can vary within the same brand. I would get an Aero upper for your Aero lower. Check with Surplus Arms and Ammo for an AP upper. Call. BCGs are getting the same way. Not many reports of bolt or carrier failure these days. Choose your favorite brand, coating and semi or auto. I use auto (M16) if only for the more is better theory. $120 - $240 on average depending on what you pick. |
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sounds like you have it well sorted out.
My preferences for a target AR; A1 trap stock. I can get by with an A2 but if I want to shoot service rifle match with a good shooting coat I need the A1. RRA free float tube, service rifle type stainless 1-7 or 1-8 barrel. either will work I like the A4 upper type so I can work up loads on the bench with a scope and switch back to irons. I believe RRA has a better A4 set up so you can shoot your rear sight all the way out to 800 without monkeying with the front sight post height. A non issue on the A2 rifles of any make due to more adjust |
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BCG's Whats the difference, what to look for and what makes a difference in accuracy
If true milspec not much difference and probably mfg'd at same place in many instances. Chrome is easier to clean but more pricey. I personally use Colt M-16 BCG's or FN for the most part but most all quality mfg will suffice. Look for magnetic particle inspection. A Young NM BCG, I have two and are very high quality but rather pricey. In accuracy a tighter tolerance may make a minimal difference. Kinda depends on machinery and wear of tooling at day of mfg. These are mfg to spec some on the tight side and some on the loose side. A new BCG of quality mfg will be fine in my opinion. For me a new barrel gets a new bolt and I just leave them mated. Carrier doesn't matter that much to me personally but I don't want one with a huge amount of wear. A nice FCG and quality barrel make the biggest differences in accuracy to me. A very good or better shooter can make most any AR look pretty good and good vision is a big plus in my opinion. |
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PSA parts showed up yesterday, ordered on the 1st as part of their sale. Guess its ok as the prices were low and I didnt have a great reason to have them fast.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/jaguarsurfer/AR15/C029EADC-89FA-47B5-868B-6013CE818DCC-7375-00000729DD26D8B4.jpg Read some instructions and watches a few DIY videos on youtube and the lower went together with out much fuss http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/jaguarsurfer/AR15/8C0CBA01-7577-4255-A484-5167B3EF031A-7375-00000729D909F96C.jpg Really was simple But not with out a hitch The roll pin that holds the trigger guard was not going in easily. I knew that it would not just slide in, but really though I was using to much effort. So I tried to remove it. While trying to remove it it got stuck. Not sure what was happening. Long story short I needed to remove it with pliers, and damaged it http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/jaguarsurfer/AR15/0F82A1E9-D935-4B14-8071-7CD2A15D9C6C-7375-00000729D57FDFFD.jpg Guess I need to order/find a new one This was left on the bench after I finished No idea what it is. It is not listed on any parts list I can find http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/jaguarsurfer/AR15/C281EA28-2FF3-4CB0-9D26-E11AD75BCB5B-7375-00000729D08BFD08.jpg Any ideas? |
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This is the part in question
Its not listed on all LPK http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/jaguarsurfer/AR15/Screenshot2012-09-14at54427PM.png |
| Is it the same diameter as the trigger pin/hammer? Could be a guide to help with install. Help hold everything while you install pin and tap out other side. Many trigger guard pins are rather tight. Support and have at it. Would think you could still use it. If scarred touch up with file or replace. Get it started with a little lube and drive it home. Does seem like the most tedious piece of the puzzle IMO or should I say the piece that could make or break the build. Looks like you're getting there. That trigger got some kinda finish on it? Is it a Gen II FCG? |
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