User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 11/27/2012 10:00:54 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Quoted:
*looks some more* So, after managing to pry my size 12EEE boot out of my mouth, I'm seeing now that what I thought was an M27 is actually a LWRC (is that correct?) I'm still interested in how that closed to open bolt mechanism functions, if someone could point me in the right direction I'd be mighty appreciative. LWRC was one of the entrants for the IAR and have retained the IAR designation for the weapon. Colt, FN (which fires both open and closed bolt depending on temperature), and Ultimak, among others also develop and sell "IARs". The LWRC IAR has both open and closed bolt modes, but I am unsure of the mechanism to achieve this. The M27 HK IAR is a closed bolt rifle; in essence it's a standard HK416 with a 16" heavy barrel and long handguard. Nothing more. i like that Ultimak, looks a lot better than the IAR. the open bolt system is the same one Colt or maybe Stoner came up with in like 1965 or another old gun and nothing really "new". it uses a special hammer, sear and modded bolt, the sear becomes a bolt hold open similar to the standard on already on it. you pull the trigger and it works like a normal FA gun locking into the barrel and tripping the sear/hammer at the same time. just when you let go of the trigger the sear pops up and catches on the bolt holding it open. i really like that idea better than the closed bolt IAR. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/27/2012 10:01:07 PM EDT
[#2]
edit...
DAMMIT |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/28/2012 8:26:10 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
The M27 HK IAR is a closed bolt rifle; in essence it's a standard HK416 with a 16" heavy barrel and long handguard. Nothing more. Actually M27 uses standard barrel (heavier profile than barrels used in M16 or M4 - close to SOCOM profile, but not "heavy profile") from HK416D165RS with longer handguard and some small changes (that are now standard in all 416, like new charging handle or captive/solid firing pin retainer) and some accessories. "Heavy barrel" is used in civilian "Match Rifle" series (MR223/MR556) to validate "sporting purpose" of those rifles (to make German media, officials and anti-guns happy, that HK is not selling assault weapons to civilians). Shooting from closed bolt is preferably over open bolt for accuracy, safety and reliability. HK met (with big margin) USMC required sustained fire rate without open bolt shooting, so good for them. BTW Within one belt capacity, belt fed weapon will deliver higher sustained fire rate tha 30rd magazine fed IAR, but when we go over that, and add belt change time into account.... Basically IAR will not replace belt feds when truly high volume of fire is required, like fixed defensive positions, but as full auto capability in fast maneuver and assault situation it is much better. That is why we had here (Warsaw Pact) magazine fed automatic rifles (RPK, RPK-74) to compliment our belt feds (still lighter than NATO counterparts). |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/28/2012 4:45:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The M27 HK IAR is a closed bolt rifle; in essence it's a standard HK416 with a 16" heavy barrel and long handguard. Nothing more. Actually M27 uses standard barrel (heavier profile than barrels used in M16 or M4 - close to SOCOM profile, but not "heavy profile") from HK416D165RS with longer handguard and some small changes (that are now standard in all 416, like new charging handle or captive/solid firing pin retainer) and some accessories. "Heavy barrel" is used in civilian "Match Rifle" series (MR223/MR556) to validate "sporting purpose" of those rifles (to make German media, officials and anti-guns happy, that HK is not selling assault weapons to civilians). Shooting from closed bolt is preferably over open bolt for accuracy, safety and reliability. HK met (with big margin) USMC required sustained fire rate without open bolt shooting, so good for them. BTW Within one belt capacity, belt fed weapon will deliver higher sustained fire rate tha 30rd magazine fed IAR, but when we go over that, and add belt change time into account.... Basically IAR will not replace belt feds when truly high volume of fire is required, like fixed defensive positions, but as full auto capability in fast maneuver and assault situation it is much better. That is why we had here (Warsaw Pact) magazine fed automatic rifles (RPK, RPK-74) to compliment our belt feds (still lighter than NATO counterparts). we still were required to keep all of our SAWs for that purpose, bunkers, watch towers, vehicles and so on or other fixed positions. the USMC is not just throwing out all the SAWS. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/28/2012 4:58:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Dumb question moment: What about something akin to the shrike? Compact, light weight, M16 manual of arms, and optional belt or mag feed. Combine this with LWRC's closed-to-open bolt FCG.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/29/2012 4:37:09 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
we still were required to keep all of our SAWs for that purpose, bunkers, watch towers, vehicles and so on or other fixed positions. the USMC is not just throwing out all the SAWS. I know that. But there is a lot of headless chickens running around the web, crying that USMC is dumping belt fed in favor of mag fed, and world end will closely follow 
AFAIK IAR is to compliment and/or partially replace SAW, per mission profile requirements. SAW is not going any were, just will be used for task that it does great, not those it does poorly or mediocre. Quoted:
Dumb question moment: What about something akin to the shrike? Compact, light weight, M16 manual of arms, and optional belt or mag feed. Combine this with LWRC's closed-to-open bolt FCG. This one is easy. Shrike did not enter competition (you need to buy ticket, to win prize at lottery) and LWRCi offering did not make to final stage of tender (HK, Colt, FN did). |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/29/2012 4:43:56 AM EDT
[#7]
pics showing barrel profile?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/29/2012 5:31:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
pics showing barrel profile? AFAIK standard HK416D165RS barrel profile. That means (approximately) 22.5mm straight profile under handguard and 17mm straight profile in front of gas block. There is "light" profile 16.5" barrel for 416 with (if i remember correct) 19mm/15mm respectively. Good write on M27 in Small Arms Defense Journal: HERE (part 1) and HERE (part 2) |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/29/2012 6:27:16 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Dumb question moment: What about something akin to the shrike? Compact, light weight, M16 manual of arms, and optional belt or mag feed. Combine this with LWRC's closed-to-open bolt FCG. Did the Shrike ever become a real thing that people could get a hold of? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/29/2012 10:20:57 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dumb question moment: What about something akin to the shrike? Compact, light weight, M16 manual of arms, and optional belt or mag feed. Combine this with LWRC's closed-to-open bolt FCG. Did the Shrike ever become a real thing that people could get a hold of? If by people, you mean someone with $5,000 to burn, then yes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/29/2012 2:02:18 PM EDT
[#11]
Just saw this gem on gunbroker from someone selling a Colt LMG upper...granted it is a NICE NEW COMPLETE ORIGINAL upper, but still
"This auction is for a Colt Light Machine Gun (LMG) A2 complete upper which is New In the Bag from Colt. This is a factory original item which is no longer produced. From what I understand these are no longer being produced by Colt since they no longer have the Marine contract on these rifles that are being replaced by the M27. This may be the last new original factory A2 LMG you ever see offered for sale. Comes complete with BCG and charging handle." 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/29/2012 6:15:58 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
pics showing barrel profile? AFAIK standard HK416D165RS barrel profile. That means (approximately) 22.5mm straight profile under handguard and 17mm straight profile in front of gas block. There is "light" profile 16.5" barrel for 416 with (if i remember correct) 19mm/15mm respectively. Good write on M27 in Small Arms Defense Journal: HERE (part 1) and HERE (part 2) HAHA no shit!!! that was my unit. first and only reserve unit to deploy with them. (I was prior service active duty so i only went reserve to go to afghan) |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/29/2012 6:18:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
pics showing barrel profile? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/2/2012 8:56:57 AM EDT
[#14]
I got off active duty about a year ago, and my functional issues with the M27 have already been discussed here. i do have a few ergonomic issues though:
the buttstock sling swivels in the back always dug into my neck. i feel as though they are very poorly placed, and could use a redesign. the clamp holding on the rail system digs into the hand when utilizing a magwell grip. the ambi selector right side (for lefties) should have been made a short lever, or at least thin, to avoid digging into the hand of righties. id also like to see the M16A5 have an ambi selector. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/2/2012 6:58:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
I got off active duty about a year ago, and my functional issues with the M27 have already been discussed here. i do have a few ergonomic issues though: the buttstock sling swivels in the back always dug into my neck. i feel as though they are very poorly placed, and could use a redesign. the clamp holding on the rail system digs into the hand when utilizing a magwell grip. the ambi selector right side (for lefties) should have been made a short lever, or at least thin, to avoid digging into the hand of righties. id also like to see the M16A5 have an ambi selector. that is up to the unit armorers to install. we had probably like 500+ ambi selectors laying around in the cages of extra parts, not sure why or where they came from. if the unit wanted to install them they can be ordered. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2012 3:28:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
i do have a few ergonomic issues though: the buttstock sling swivels in the back always dug into my neck. i feel as though they are very poorly placed, and could use a redesign. the clamp holding on the rail system digs into the hand when utilizing a magwell grip. the ambi selector right side (for lefties) should have been made a short lever, or at least thin, to avoid digging into the hand of righties. id also like to see the M16A5 have an ambi selector. Apparently you were not only one. HK addressed some of those in HK416A5 with new stock (no sling loops on back of stock, exactly for reasons you stated) and new safety levers. Plus lot of other thing as well: 
More pictures and description on MY BLOG (clicky). |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2012 3:47:36 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
i do have a few ergonomic issues though: the buttstock sling swivels in the back always dug into my neck. i feel as though they are very poorly placed, and could use a redesign. the clamp holding on the rail system digs into the hand when utilizing a magwell grip. the ambi selector right side (for lefties) should have been made a short lever, or at least thin, to avoid digging into the hand of righties. id also like to see the M16A5 have an ambi selector. Apparently you were not only one. HK addressed some of those in HK416A5 with new stock (no sling loops on back of stock, exactly for reasons you stated) and new safety levers. Plus lot of other thing as well: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Oberndorf/image006_zps4b04a6d4.jpg More pictures and description on MY BLOG (clicky). That's all good and well - if it were issued to me, the first thing to go would be that hideous HK stock - either one, for a SOPMOD stock, but the Marine Corps tends to be a little more "ornery" about individual initiative and equipment modification than our side of the house.
~Augee |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2012 5:03:45 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
That's all good and well - if it were issued to me, the first thing to go would be that hideous HK stock - either one, for a SOPMOD stock, but the Marine Corps tends to be a little more "ornery" about individual initiative and equipment modification than our side of the house.
Come on! :) This new HK stock is not that bad at all. Very comfy. That being said, I still like the old one, but I do not take my HK for mountain hikes in warmer parts of the world. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2012 8:36:48 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's all good and well - if it were issued to me, the first thing to go would be that hideous HK stock - either one, for a SOPMOD stock, but the Marine Corps tends to be a little more "ornery" about individual initiative and equipment modification than our side of the house.
Come on! :) This new HK stock is not that bad at all. Very comfy. That being said, I still like the old one, but I do not take my HK for mountain hikes in warmer parts of the world. That must be some of that weird "Euro-Ergonomics," because I couldn't stand it!
I've tried the HK stocks, and just have not liked them at all - not the cheek weld, not the adjustment, not the pad design, it just feels clunky and unrefined, the whole sliding and storage thing is meh to me... Again - it tends not to be a huge deal to me, because it's as simple as a stock change - and I usually have more stocks on hand than rifles to put them on, so "stuck with OEM" with regards to furniture is not something I've worried about in a long while. The only possible issue would be if the chain of command were remarkably resistant to "user adaptation" and prohibited such an ergonomic adjustment. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2012 9:37:40 AM EDT
[#20]
For the cost of that eurocrap stock they could have bought an EMOD for every M27 that will ever be made and a Porsche for the CEO.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2012 9:40:05 AM EDT
[#21]
Montrala, the LWRCI entry was not downselected, it was withdrawn by LWRCI. They felt they couldn't risk the expenditure on R&D with the uncertainty about how many rifles they could sell if they didn't receive the contract.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/3/2012 11:56:02 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
i do have a few ergonomic issues though: the buttstock sling swivels in the back always dug into my neck. i feel as though they are very poorly placed, and could use a redesign. the clamp holding on the rail system digs into the hand when utilizing a magwell grip. the ambi selector right side (for lefties) should have been made a short lever, or at least thin, to avoid digging into the hand of righties. id also like to see the M16A5 have an ambi selector. Apparently you were not only one. HK addressed some of those in HK416A5 with new stock (no sling loops on back of stock, exactly for reasons you stated) and new safety levers. Plus lot of other thing as well: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Oberndorf/image006_zps4b04a6d4.jpg More pictures and description on MY BLOG (clicky). I am very happy to see those changes, as well as the increased size of the backstrap of the pistol grip. that was my other complaint, as the M27 and standard A2 pistol grips both cause the shooter to overreach the trigger in most scenarios. but is there any storage in the stock at all? why no QD sling mounts? i cannot understand why companies refuse to include common features like that. I try to only use QD swivels, so I would still want to replace that stock. and i desire stocks with at least SOME storage for gear. and it seems like there are still no built in front sling mounts or QD cups. sigh. I am not sure how i feel about that front sight either. seems like it would be easy to break off by accident. and im still angered by the silly magwell though. what a terrible idea. i had to sell all of my PMag G2s to avoid incompatibility in my unit. i have M3s on the way solely for this reason. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/4/2012 1:06:16 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Montrala, the LWRCI entry was not downselected, it was withdrawn by LWRCI. They felt they couldn't risk the expenditure on R&D with the uncertainty about how many rifles they could sell if they didn't receive the contract. If that was the case, it means company is not prepared for serving serious military market and do not posses R&D capability needed to become serious competitor on military market. Bad, but only for them. At the end of the day result is same - theirs design is irrelevant. Quoted:
I am very happy to see those changes, as well as the increased size of the backstrap of the pistol grip. that was my other complaint, as the M27 and standard A2 pistol grips both cause the shooter to overreach the trigger in most scenarios. but is there any storage in the stock at all? why no QD sling mounts? i cannot understand why companies refuse to include common features like that. I try to only use QD swivels, so I would still want to replace that stock. and i desire stocks with at least SOME storage for gear. and it seems like there are still no built in front sling mounts or QD cups. sigh. I am not sure how i feel about that front sight either. seems like it would be easy to break off by accident. and im still angered by the silly magwell though. what a terrible idea. i had to sell all of my PMag G2s to avoid incompatibility in my unit. i have M3s on the way solely for this reason. Inside pistol grip there is universal tool for weapon service and maintenance. QD sling mounts are not worldwide military standard. Most militaries thread slings directly to weapon, without any kind of quick disconnect. If USMC would require it, HK would provide. Not huge fan of this flip up sight myself. At least they moved it from gasblock. HK magwell is few years older than PMag. It was designed in time when only choice was either USGI or HK HRM magazines. USMC did not specify requirement for IAR candidate to be compatible with PMag, only with USGI. M27 is fully compatible with USGI and there was no reason for HK to change design for unofficial accessory. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/5/2012 10:13:56 PM EDT
[#24]
i don't see why people care about stock storage or pistol grip storage, in real combat or military use no one uses that. for my personal guns it is nice so i can keep my NFA papers in there or what not.
storage places on the rifle it's self are more of a concept idea than one that is actually used by real life shooters. as for putting a different stock on your rifle... im my USMC unit some guys did while we were deployed or on long field ops where the rifle was in their possession for days at a time. as the armorers we pretty much said if you do not need tools to change it then we won't say anything.... BUT if you need a tool to changed it ASK ME FIRST, i'll 90% of the time not care and actually do it for you just check. now if you put a $100 stock on your M4 then turn i back into the Armory there will be problems, 1 your shit may go missing, 2 WTF happened to the original stock? the main problem with the user changing out shit on the gun is they loose the original parts, it has to be 100% correct when we get inspected, non colt M4 stock suck when you are inspecting 200+ M4s and you use that sling mount thing on the stock to hang them off the cage. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/6/2012 6:07:37 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Montrala, the LWRCI entry was not downselected, it was withdrawn by LWRCI. They felt they couldn't risk the expenditure on R&D with the uncertainty about how many rifles they could sell if they didn't receive the contract. If that was the case, it means company is not prepared for serving serious military market and do not posses R&D capability needed to become serious competitor on military market. Bad, but only for them. At the end of the day result is same - theirs design is irrelevant. Doesn't make it any less capable of a product though. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/6/2012 6:21:51 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Montrala, the LWRCI entry was not downselected, it was withdrawn by LWRCI. They felt they couldn't risk the expenditure on R&D with the uncertainty about how many rifles they could sell if they didn't receive the contract. If that was the case, it means company is not prepared for serving serious military market and do not posses R&D capability needed to become serious competitor on military market. Bad, but only for them. At the end of the day result is same - theirs design is irrelevant. Doesn't make it any less capable of a product though. For consumer market? No, it does not make product any less capable for average shooter. I think LWRCi is making great consumer products, with big potential in future, when company will accumulate some experience and grow up. But if company is unable to back it with level of experience and capabilities required by big military contracts, then it is like product did not exist in first place. For (small arms) military market, manufacturer capabilities and abilities are sometimes (often) more important than product itself. That is why this market is dominated with big boys like Colt, FN or Beretta and only selected, smaller companies like HK or KAC manage to cut themselves some niche. There are of course "national" manufacturers in different countries, but they usually do not have large footprint outside of their country (HK being exception here). |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/6/2012 1:57:18 PM EDT
[#27]
And what of the SOF/SOCOM and other smaller gov't departments and units that make LWRC rifles standard issue? I'm trying to determine if you're saying they're not good enough, or that they just don't have the production capability to fill an overtly large contract.
They're breaking their ass on a 35,000 unit contract right now... |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/6/2012 2:01:46 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
And what of the SOF/SOCOM and other smaller gov't departments and units that make LWRC rifles standard issue? I'm trying to determine if you're saying they're not good enough, or that they just don't have the production capability to fill an overtly large contract. They're breaking their ass on a 35,000 unit contract right now... I think he means this. LWRC are well regarded and tested, but even they admit they don't have the production ability. When it comes to gov contracts, half the product is the physical product, the other half is manufacturing ability and sustainment |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/6/2012 2:14:56 PM EDT
[#29]
LWRCI contracted with Anniston to provide service for the IC. It's the only way they could afford to have the capacity.
Montrala the European model of national champions in the arms industry stunts growth and saddles militarized with shit rifles regularly. We should encourage another model. FWIW HK took nearly $40,000,000 in DoD money to restock the G36 into the equally shit XM8. Maybe they aren't ready to play in the big leagues with Colt. After all, the M4 was developed privately. |
|
|
|
Posted: 12/7/2012 12:42:36 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Montrala the European model of national champions in the arms industry stunts growth and saddles militarized with shit rifles regularly. We should encourage another model. European? You kidding me? Can you say Colt (or Boeing). European countries buy from US companies, but when European company tries to sell to US, then it so happens that their product is no longer needed or tender gets restarted. Or when Bushmaster "accidentally" got M4 contract - corrected very swiftly in Colt favor. Look at IC stunt - it is designed in way to secure US "national champions" interests, even if they will not provide valid offer. And, frankly, I do not expect it to change. Move further away from monitor, do not observe "pixels", look at whole picture. US can buy gizmos and gimmicks from small or even foreign companies, but important stuff is aways coming from selected "national champions". FNH decided to "play by the book" and established most of their manufacturing capabilities in US and become "national champion" (come one, company with right to Browning(tm) must be US one! - even if from Belgium). And I'm not sure if it is bad. It just works this way. Defence industry is not same as any other one and if country can afford (and US can, or at least could in the past) to base solely on own, "national champions" it gives better control. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
.jpg)
