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Posted: 9/19/2017 11:48:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Why?
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Posted: 9/19/2017 11:53:21 PM EDT
[#2]
You mean why modify it, or why have one in the first place?
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Posted: 9/20/2017 12:04:18 AM EDT
[#3]
Yes, just remove the "sharks fin" and you are good to go. I have used original selectors in all of my builds.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 12:07:47 AM EDT
[#4]
Excellent, thanks a bunch!
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Posted: 9/20/2017 12:22:57 AM EDT
[#5]
The "sharks fin" can be easily removed with a dremel tool. Using a cut off wheel, it takes about half a minute.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 7:13:06 AM EDT
[#6]
Well, a sharks fin a cuttin I will do! Thanks M16indiana!
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Posted: 9/20/2017 7:18:33 AM EDT
[#7]
I need to get a dremel tool to slightly reshape some of my lowers to make them look more "A1" around the pivot lug area. What is a good brand to do the job for the selector and the reshaping? Don't need anything elaborate. I can borrow one, but would love to just have my own.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 8:29:15 AM EDT
[#8]
Don't know how you feel about tools.
Some types of tools I buy cheap from Harbor Freight or mail order and expect a few uses out of them before they need replacing. Other tools I spend the money on quality brands because I expect to need them forever and use them regularly. You can get a Chinese rotary tool for about $10 or a basic single -speed Dremel rotary tool for $30. Can't speak to the Harbor Freight model, but I've been using my Dremel for over 15 years and I'm happy with it. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 8:33:17 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I need to get a dremel tool to slightly reshape some of my lowers to make them look more "A1" around the pivot lug area. What is a good brand to do the job for the selector and the reshaping? Don't need anything elaborate. I can borrow one, but would love to just have my own. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 9:13:12 AM EDT
[#10]
The most terrifying thing an RO hears is, "I used a Dremel on my gun to..."
A Dremel is a fine tool for some jobs and a passable tool for other jobs but too many basement gunsmiths make messes out of guns with Dremels, more than any other tool commonly available. As long as you have a standard semi-auto trigger the full auto "shark fin" is not going to do anything. You could safely run it as-is. Not sure I see any good reason to run a full auto selector in a semi auto gun other than because you can. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 9:21:54 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure I see any good reason to run a full auto selector in a semi auto gun other than because you can. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 9:25:05 AM EDT
[#12]
M16 selector with other AR15 lower parts installed results in a safe, fire, safe condition. BTDT and still doing it.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 9:27:41 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The most terrifying thing an RO hears is, "I used a Dremel on my gun to..." A Dremel is a fine tool for some jobs and a passable tool for other jobs but too many basement gunsmiths make messes out of guns with Dremels, more than any other tool commonly available. . |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 9:59:19 AM EDT
[#14]
Richard-ar15 and M16indiana - Guys, thanks for the great feedback on the tools. I have stuff to practice on before I ever get near a receiver.
Mcb - just because the selector is A1 config, and it can rotate to the Auto position for show only. Tangochaser - makes sense since the sharks fin probably impacts the closed rear part of the trigger and prohibits its movement. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 10:55:48 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tangochaser - makes sense since the sharks fin probably impacts the closed rear part of the trigger and prohibits its movement. You could get the same functionality by using an M16 trigger. The M16 selector cannot engage (hold down) a semi-auto disconnector. It's easier to open the rear of your semi-auto trigger than to grind off the fin. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 10:58:56 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M16 selector with other AR15 lower parts installed results in a safe, fire, safe condition. BTDT and still doing it. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 11:48:20 AM EDT
[#17]
I have had a multispeed Dremel for over 20 years now and it works great, I was out of town once and had to cut a bearing race out of a car that broke down on me, so I ran over the local Harbor Freight, picked up one of their version and it didn't last 20 minutes. So when it comes down to this type of tool, stick with the brand name.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 11:58:01 AM EDT
[#18]
Yup KitBuilder, this make sense as well! I have been building these things since 1985....never really thought about it in depth until now. Scary!
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Posted: 9/20/2017 12:02:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's easier to open the rear of your semi-auto trigger than to grind off the fin. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 12:10:57 PM EDT
[#20]
Any good ideas on Dremel brands? I saw a HomeDepot Dremel brand multispeed for $67.99... good? I really want to also work on some of my cheap 80% receivers, and do some reshaping.
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Posted: 9/20/2017 12:20:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any good ideas on Dremel brands? I saw a HomeDepot Dremel brand multispeed for $67.99... good? I really want to also work on some of my cheap 80% receivers, and do some reshaping. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 12:23:35 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you "open the rear of your semi-auto trigger" then you have just turned it into a full auto part. I am no lawyer, but I think in certain curcumstances that could be construed as an attempt at full auto conversion. I knew a guy in high school who tried to make a silencer. It did not work, but the ATF prosecuted him for his ATTEMPT. If you remove the sharks fin from a full auto selector, you are destroying a full auto part by making it semi auto only. I don't see any way that "constructive intent" could be implied from THAT scenario. Was your high school guy convicted? It would be the same if he bought an M16 trigger and used it instead. I don't believe either is unlawful. If equipped with a semi-auto disconnector and hammer, it won't be firing fully automatically. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 1:10:41 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Constructive intent" does not exist. The term is "constructive possession". Was your high school guy convicted? It would be the same if he bought an M16 trigger and used it instead. I don't believe either is unlawful. If equipped with a semi-auto disconnector and hammer, it won't be firing fully automatically. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 1:51:58 PM EDT
[#24]
If the rifle never fires fully automatically, I doubt the parts will ever be examined at all. There's never been a requirement that each part be physically different from its select-fire counterpart. Just look at what Zenith/MKE was allowed to do with their trigger packs, and those are BATFE-approved imports. My opinion isn't worth any more than yours.
What was the guy's name? I'd like to read his case summary. |
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Posted: 9/20/2017 2:31:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Hey guys, yeah I spent some time looking at old posts while I was trying to get more information on modifying the M16 selector. I actually went on to the BATF website and found information that I will post later. Basically they tell you that if you have M16 FCG parts that you should modify them to SP1 config. It sounded like if you have a combination of M16 parts that could double or fire full auto then you are in possession of a machine gun and thus subject to the NFA laws. The M16 selector has 3 things different than the AR15:
1. It has an extra detent hole to allow the selector to rotate to the Auto position. 2. It has material removed from one of its cams closest to the left side of the receiver that rotates the arm of the automatic sear forward to catch the hammer. 3. It has a sharks fin that presses down on the long M16 disconnector and rotates it upward so it can no longer retain the hammer. Removing the sharks fin makes it impossible to engage any type of disconnector, and allows for the free travel of the trigger. This makes the selector rotated in the auto position fire semi automatic. If the sharks fin is not removed it will press down on the closed back end of the trigger and act as a safe mode. By removing the sharks fin you are actually following the suggestion of the BATF by modifying the full auto part to semi auto. Either way the selector cannot cause a slam fire, double fire, or full auto if used in conjunction with semi auto FCG parts, or at least a semi auto disconnector in my opinion. Now if the BATF felt it was still sort of an M16 part because it can be rotated to the Auto position then the Echo trigger would be illegal because it also rotates to the Echo mode (Auto position) I would presume. |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 3:35:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any good ideas on Dremel brands? I saw a HomeDepot Dremel brand multispeed for $67.99... good? I really want to also work on some of my cheap 80% receivers, and do some reshaping. |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 6:44:48 PM EDT
[#27]
If it aint broke, don't fix it. M16 trigger requires no mods to function fine in a semi auto, legally and factually.
No need for laws if they scare us into self regulating ourselves. |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 8:19:41 PM EDT
[#28]
Unless any of the information above comes from a Lawyer who is VERY familiar with AR15/M16 rifles and who is willing to defend you IF an ATF or other LEO decides to press you, I would not listen to any of them. Here is diagram of what parts need to be neutered if YOU chose to do it.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 9:16:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You mean why modify it, or why have one in the first place? |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 9:20:56 PM EDT
[#30]
For show.....make it look more authentic.
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Posted: 9/21/2017 9:22:08 PM EDT
[#31]
Thanks m1sniper!
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Posted: 9/21/2017 9:26:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Thanks Pothole, I think I'm going to pull the trigger on that dremel tool (no pun)
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Posted: 9/21/2017 9:36:04 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For show.....make it look more authentic. 
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Posted: 9/21/2017 9:52:17 PM EDT
[#34]
With out a full auto disconnector, the selector works no different than any other selector except it has a safe and two fire pisitions.
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Posted: 9/21/2017 9:54:23 PM EDT
[#35]
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/ATF%20M16%20Letter.pdf
The link is cold, cause I don't know how to make it hot. This letter from ATF says M16 BCG is ok, but M16 FCG isn't. There are pages on the ATF site that explains this. There are also pages alleging there was a court case and that the ATF has to prove intent to construct a full auto gun. They consider installing unmodified M16 parts as intent. Ergo, unless you got the bucks to pay a lawyer, it's probably best to avoid unmodified M16 FCG parts. And if you can afford a lawyer to fight ATF, you can prolly afford a Title II M16
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Posted: 9/21/2017 10:20:39 PM EDT
[#36]
I would also like to thro this out as it amazes me how quickly people forget. It was only a few months ago that a member sent a completed 80% lower to get anodized. The lower had been engraved to include a fake sear pin circle that is purposely engraved a tiny bit off of the correct spot. Nevertheless, that lower was confiscated by BATF at the anodizers.
Play it safe and do all the mods shown in that pic above. |
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Posted: 9/21/2017 11:03:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Hey M1sniper - so all highlighted in red needs to be remove (sharks fin on the selector). With my luck I would order one and the ATF would deliver it to me before I had a chance to modify it to AR config!
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Posted: 9/22/2017 12:08:29 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey M1sniper - so all highlighted in red needs to be remove (sharks fin on the selector). With my luck I would order one and the ATF would deliver it to me before I had a chance to modify it to AR config! There is a member here on the forum that usually has already neutered fire control groups for sale on gunbroker. He is well known and a very respected member. If you chose to go that route I'll be happy to PM you one of his auctions so you can contact him. He may or may not have that specific item listed right now but he can get them. |
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Posted: 9/22/2017 1:31:02 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would also like to thro this out as it amazes me how quickly people forget. It was only a few months ago that a member sent a completed 80% lower to get anodized. The lower had been engraved to include a fake sear pin circle that is purposely engraved a tiny bit off of the correct spot. Nevertheless, that lower was confiscated by BATF at the anodizers. Play it safe and do all the mods shown in that pic above. I can confiscate stuff too, but that doesn't mean I'm right. Most guys will give up their property rather than fight. I understand. If you're worried about people taking your guns, it's safest not to own any. There was a time when ATF wrote letters stating it wasn't wise to have an M16 bolt carrier in a semi-auto. Now they say it's fine. Did the law change? Nope, only their opinion. The law states that possession of an unregistered MG is prohibited. |
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Posted: 9/22/2017 8:58:21 AM EDT
[#40]
m1sniper, that would be fantastic if you could PM me with the information on the auctions. If I could get an M16A1 already modified selector it would save me the trouble. Thanks a bunch!
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Posted: 9/22/2017 9:54:40 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didn't forget. I can confiscate stuff too, but that doesn't mean I'm right. Most guys will give up their property rather than fight. I understand. If you're worried about people taking your guns, it's safest not to own any. There was a time when ATF wrote letters stating it wasn't wise to have an M16 bolt carrier in a semi-auto. Now they say it's fine. Did the law change? Nope, only their opinion. The law states that possession of an unregistered MG is prohibited. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I would also like to thro this out as it amazes me how quickly people forget. It was only a few months ago that a member sent a completed 80% lower to get anodized. The lower had been engraved to include a fake sear pin circle that is purposely engraved a tiny bit off of the correct spot. Nevertheless, that lower was confiscated by BATF at the anodizers. Play it safe and do all the mods shown in that pic above. I can confiscate stuff too, but that doesn't mean I'm right. Most guys will give up their property rather than fight. I understand. If you're worried about people taking your guns, it's safest not to own any. There was a time when ATF wrote letters stating it wasn't wise to have an M16 bolt carrier in a semi-auto. Now they say it's fine. Did the law change? Nope, only their opinion. The law states that possession of an unregistered MG is prohibited. As for all other arguments, I won't get involved. Bottom line, regardless of "right or wrong", "legal or illegal", in this day and age, it appears that if a BATFE agent had a bad night at home, he can cause 2A supporters a major headache if he wants to. Confiscation or pressing charges. Even if he looses, the only ones that win are the lawyers who get paid. In the case of the sear circle, that member spent money to buy the 80%er, spent money to get it engraved, spent time finishing it out only to have it taken away. I don't believe charges were filed but don't know for sure. All because that agent didn't like seeing that lil offset circle. |
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Posted: 9/22/2017 11:05:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Don't forget to check your state laws also. Here in WA we cannot own any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun so we have to modify any trigger parts that are not also used on ar15's. Federally it's fine to own them, just not build an unregistered machine gun.
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Posted: 9/22/2017 11:18:17 AM EDT
[#43]
I think we can all agree that the leeway that a Federal Agent can potentially have with the backing of the US Government, and their resources puts some people at ill ease. I think we can all agree that a circle at or near where the automatic sear hole would be, or a part that will absolutely not function in any way shape or form the way it would in a full auto config would not constitute a violation of the NFA rules. I think the government knows this as well. Bullying a private citizen who may or may not have the resources to fight a Federal agency is easier to get away with than maybe a corporation, or group of corporations that may have the resources and connections needed to push back on the agency. Since the reasoning on the part of the Government is flimsy at best (engraved circles and selectors), this may explain why Troy gets away with putting a fax auto sear pin engraving in place with a bar blocking where the auto sear would sit (semi auto receivers already partially block this area).
The people that I know in law enforcement are good people, but human. You will get a bad apple from time to time, or just someone having a bad day. The question is a matter of what battles to fight and when. I will fight to the ends of the earth for my Second Amendment rights, as well as any law that would stop me from owning a semi automatic weapon that I have owned since 1985. Is it worth the time, and money for me to fight over a $40.00 part when I can modify it to get the same functionality of (turning into the 3rd position) so I can say that looks just like a full auto version without actually being full auto? I applaud those who have very little fear, or would be happy to challenge a rogue agent. I'm not the guy in this case. I will modify a selector so it does what I want, but stays Semi Auto. This way I know there is no question of legality. Just my 1 and a half cents. |
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Posted: 9/22/2017 12:51:08 PM EDT
[#44]
A very reasonable conclusion, OP.
If you owned it in 1985, why didn't you just make it a legal MG then?
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Posted: 9/22/2017 3:12:47 PM EDT
[#45]
Hey KitBuilder, because I'm an idiot!
No, it gets even worse....I had the opportunity to purchase a brand new Colt M16A1 for around $2,000 around 1986 before the ban, and I decided not to do it!!! That decision costed me what....almost $40,000?
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Posted: 9/22/2017 3:39:00 PM EDT
[#46]
Bares repeating. Who needs the ATF when we self regulate ourselves into complying with rules and regulations that do not exist. An entire M16 LPK will not produce a MG without the auto sear. A selector in an of itself will not produce a MG.
Recommendations are fine but irrational fear is not. 
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Posted: 9/22/2017 4:52:39 PM EDT
[#47]
"What we have here is failure to communicate.....some men you just can't reach" LOL
 Cool Hand Luke (1967) - The Captain's speech " What we've got here is failure to communicate" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=452XjnaHr1A
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Posted: 9/22/2017 6:48:14 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bares repeating. Who needs the ATF when we self regulate ourselves into complying with rules and regulations that do not exist. An entire M16 LPK will not produce a MG without the auto sear. A selector in an of itself will not produce a MG. Recommendations are fine but irrational fear is not. So, better safe then sorry is how I tread the waters. |
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