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Posted: 7/8/2016 9:36:15 PM EDT
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Hi folks! I'm new to the forum. I should say right off the bat that I'm not very knowledgeable so you got to keep it simple for me.
I am a VN infantry vet who has recently retired from work. When my wife asked me what I wanted for a retirement present I said I wanted an M16 like I carried in the service. A long story followed, but I wound up with a 16" barrel AR15. I found a solid stock, short triangular hand guards and a Vietnam era suppressor. The rifle is cool, lightweight and fun to shoot. But it's not that close to an M16 in looks. I have been looking around to see what I would need to find one or build one from parts that is more like an original. Since I was warned about this I want to add I don't care about the full auto, and have no interest in any legal hassles. I just want a piece that looks like an M16. From what I have learned so far I want an AR15 A1, but I don't know if kits or buying an old one is better, plus I don't really know the best place to look. I was referred to this site so I am open to any suggestions. I hope to read up all of the provided information on this site, but I have not studied weapons that much since I left the service 40 some years ago. If this is too elementary a question for this forum, or not put in the right place, my apologies and administrators can move it if need be. |
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Welcome. Your at the right place.
Heressome good info. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/263900_So__you_are_thinking_of_a_retro_build___PICS_and_information_LIST_OF_RETRO_PARTS_SUPPLIERS.html |
| Welcome home and thank you for your service. It's more fun of course to build a rifle, and from what I've done, it's cheaper. Good luck in your search and have fun building if you choose that route. You might want to search out an early SP1 rifle if you're shying away from building. |
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Welcome to retroland. Home of the VN era semi auto clone builds.
Probably easiest for you to buy a surplus M-16 upper and pin it on your existing semi auto lower receiver since you already installed a fixed stock on it. Buy some Brownells 20 rd magazines and call it done. Can go from mild to wild depending on the actual years/ dates you were in service and how accurate you want to get with build. As stated Colt SP-1 civilian semi auto rifle is about as close as they get but these have become rather pricey. Kinda depends on wallet size also. Most here build their own from surplus components and purchase semi auto NDS lower receivers which are cosmetically correct in profile and appearance to the full auto lowers the military supplied. The earlier year conflict Colt rifle components cost today far more than the later conflict year parts, main reason I commented on what years in service. Earliest build was 601 followed by 602 then 603 and 604. 604 was basically Air Force slickside style less forward assist but they found there way into combat also. 603 is your most popular and mass produced M-16 rifle. Probably might search hometown at top of retro forum site and see if someone is close to your town that may have some parts and or be interested in helping you along. Would think in Ohio there are lots of surplus M-16 uppers floating around and possibly a deal to be had. Today on most sale sites figure $500 for a complete retro Colt upper is a steal. Most want $600 plus and that's for the common stuff. If you can tell me what years you were in I can tell you what to look for or what you probably carried and it's correct markings. At a later date if you want to get into building I can probably help you there also. I'd suggest simply buying the correct upper you want at least until after coming presidential election. More than likely going to have to register what you have as an assault rifle in very near future if not banned altogether and upper receivers don't count only the lower half. Good luck and again welcome to forum. |
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Welcome and thank you for your service.
You are in a good place and lots of helpful folks here. So you say you have a solid stock AR right now but the problem seems to be your upper? It is an easy enough swap to do a 20" light weight barrel upper swap on there as long as you are happy with what you have from the waist down so to speak. Without seeing it it's hard to say but I would guess you have an A2 lower and if you want "close enough" I would stick with it. The stock is probably a longer A2 fixed stock but once again may not bother you at all. The grip is probably an A2 with the finger bump on the front of it. Shoot me your address by private message and I will hook you up with a correct A1 if you need it. The upper I would try and find a GI takeoff on gunbroker or at a local show. They have gotten a bit pricy unless you want to build one yourself with newer parts. Nodak Spud or Brownells can get you a correct newly manufactured A1 upper and pick up your choice of 20" "pencil" or "light weight" profile barrel but then it's going to require a bit of tools and wrenching on your part but not bad. |
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Thanks guys! Sounds like some or all of you have military history, so I thank you for your service as well.
I looked over the information provided. It looks like because of cost I will be trying to build. I doubt if I would want to use the lower assembly from my short barrel AR15. It's shiny black and has a logo on it, plus some of the parts just look wrong, like the forward assist is the wrong shape. I have found a place on the internet that sells a Colt M16A1 parts kit that is shy the lower and barrel for $699. Is that a good deal? If so, where is a good place to start looking for the missing parts. I appreciate all the help. If anyone has an idea of somewhere on this site with more information other than the FAQ, I will read more and post less for now. |
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I would recommend paying the money for a genuine Colt SP1 made on or before your time in country. Yes they are the most expensive but as long as you pay fair market value you are fine. The price will do nothing but rise. An unmolested Colt will have all GI milspec parts where it counts. It will be the right color. It will go bang everytime.
Good luck in your search. |
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I have found a place on the internet that sells a Colt M16A1 parts kit that is shy the lower and barrel for $699.
Probably not but condition is key. If parts are excellent condition or un-issued it's still a little above their actual parts value. What's a good value to you might not be to me and vice versa. Convenience costs. If receiver is CH code it will be post VN era also. Again it's the small things to many. Will look right just not be right. Accurate 1967 production would generally be 603 model XM16E1, MP-12 barrel, round forge XM16E1 upper receiver, type D stock and no drain HG's, parkerized BCG and most everything else similar or same as later production. 1968-72 builds will be less pricey due to cost of receiver and barrel being higher on 67 and earlier. Look at retroblackrifle site under military weapons for parts differentiation. Still think locating a complete period accurate upper will be your best deal and better chance of getting original possibly unmolested upper vs. Bubba'd up unit or pieces. 1968 build one can get away with M-16A1 forge code upper, drain hole HG's and C MP C stamped barrel. The rest is basically the same minus a few small details. Do you remember if stock had trap door for cleaning kit or you carried one in pouch? NDS lower figure $200 after transfer. These generally require 6 monthish wait time once ordered. Most order and then start the parts gathering. Barrel depending on reproduction or original. Repro's figure $200-225 new shipped. USGI anything decent probably $300ish and MP-12 stamp or earlier will be more. Upper receiver figure $200ish today on www for USGI in excellent condition, as condition drops so should price. Repro's figure $150-175 unless on sale or blemished. Colt BCG figure $125-200 depending on XM16E1 carrier or M-16 A1 and condition. Excellent XM16E1 unmarked / large FP retainer hole/ MP bolt figure $200, used Colt M-16A1 / C carrier with MPC bolt figure $125 used and in excellent condition $150. Smalls, flat slip ring assembly $30ish complete, Colt grey buffer tube $30-40, buffer w/spring $15ish , charging handle $30ish excellent, gas tube $10-15, lower parts kit $50-125 depending on aftermarket or authentic Colt. Furniture set $75-100 should get real nice condition. Give you an idea of what you're up against and probably left out a couple smalls. I usually buy complete retro uppers at gunshows, word of mouth or shop gunbroker www or such. Auction setting adds competition and generally drives up price. As previously stated complete original authentic upper assemblies can still be had in $500 range and one can luck and get the earlier parts uppers by doing some shopping. If seller knows much figure $600 plus today. If seller is playing dumb more than likely something is wrong with items they are selling. How can one be in the firearms business and be firearm stupid in reality? Lot of gunshow sellers are ex-carnival or so it appears, slick talkers and full of poo poo also. Today it's all about the coins and mostly a used car purchase setting for most everything we purchase less fixed price items in the retail / grocery store. Got to do your homework before school if looking for deals. Some make ridiculously low offers but most sellers will except anything reasonable at end of day when all said and done. There are deals to be had and again condition is key for top coins. Hit a local gunshow on a weekend and test the H2O for $10 entry fee. If serious take $600 cash. Got to have cash in pocket when deal shows itself. Pic of complete retro style rifle I'm building for a disabled veteran friend / fishing buddy on the cheap, currently has Brownells 1-12 twist LW 20" barrel (while he gathers coins for his own barrel), Sharp Rifle Co. lower and everything else are worn but still functional USGI / Colt components that exterior condition wasn't good enough IMO to sell. It's been completely gone through, FCG massaged and functions with 100% reliability. This rifle will shoot with any retro build or better on any day and it's actual build cost as it sits was less than $500. Add in time searching for / locating parts which in most instances I enjoy and price would increase drastically even at $2 per hour for my time. Apologies on quick lousy photo but this weapon was built this year. Most every part I had laying around collecting dust. Buddy supplied the Colt upper receiver and Colt BCG he bought on sale for cheap to date. I went through them and replaced broken / worn / trashed parts. Bolt needed a complete refurb and sight was broken and needed everything but roll pin and windage screw. Rest is simply from parts gathering over the years. Specific lower was available years ago for $75 when lowers ran $125 and up. His name is Sharp so it was appropriate for this build. 
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Welcome home, Brother, and welcome to the Retro board.  I built my first clone in post war configuration since I didn't enlist until 1978. I started out intending to use a parts kit but lucked into a late complete Colt upper assembly (CH code upper receiver and C MP Chrome Bore marked barrel) with trap door stock and pistol grip. My lower is a NDS-16A1 from Nodak Spud, as mentioned by Cdenmark, the lower parts kit is modern with the exception of the mag release button and trigger guard, both new gray reproductions from AR15Sport.com). I used naval jelly on the modern steel parts to lighten them from black to gray. Unless you're in a big rush, I'd suggest trolling the Equipment Exchange here (look for retro items in the Used Upper Receiver and Used Lower Receiver forums), post an ad in the Wanted To Buy - AR Related forum and check the AR15 Complete Rifles forum as occasionally someone will sell a clone they've put together.  |
| Yes sir ,you have come to the right place. The gentlemen on this forum are some of the most knowledgeable and helpful people you will ever find. I started where you have and now I am on my fifth build. Great hobby/addiction. Good luck to you sir and thank you for your service. |
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Quoted:
you've likely embarked on a journey that starts out super small and becomes a hobby brother. Boy, you aint kidding! I started out putting one of those slip over moderators and a carry handle on my one and only 16" carbine and I thought I had a killer XM177. After a while I'm no longer happy with it, so I slowly start upgrading parts here and there. Next thing you know, I've built a completely new xm177e2 on a custom 80% lower, built another M16A1 clone, am currently putting together a 605 style build and trying to figure out what kind of "retro" I want to make a dedicated 22lr version of! Oh, and I still have that original 16" carbine. I ended up replacing every single part on that rifle to the point that it went full circle and I could put it back together again! It now wears magpul furniture and a red dot. I figure everyone needs at least one tacticool rifle. 
Welcome to the madness that is RBRD (Retro Black Rifle Disease). It's highly contagious and incurable. Symptoms include dwindling space in your gun safe and changes to your credit to debt ratio.
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Welcome to the madness that is RBRD (Retro Black Rifle Disease). It's highly contagious and incurable. Symptoms include dwindling space in your gun safe and changes to your credit to debt ratio.
I think I'll be OK if I can hide future purchases from my wife somehow. 
The help I've gotten here already is outstanding. You guys are great! Quick question, can anyone recommend a manual,complete parts list, exploded views, etc.? |
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Quoted:
I think I'll be OK if I can hide future purchases from my wife somehow.
The help I've gotten here already is outstanding. You guys are great! Quick question, can anyone recommend a manual,complete parts list, exploded views, etc.? Quoted:
Welcome to the madness that is RBRD (Retro Black Rifle Disease). It's highly contagious and incurable. Symptoms include dwindling space in your gun safe and changes to your credit to debt ratio.
I think I'll be OK if I can hide future purchases from my wife somehow.
The help I've gotten here already is outstanding. You guys are great! Quick question, can anyone recommend a manual,complete parts list, exploded views, etc.? https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/AR15-34689/AR15-34679/PartsList-43207.htm https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/AR15-34689/AR15-A1-34681/AR15-A1LowerReceiverButtstockAssembly-34698.htm http://m4carbine.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=23 A2, but still a very good reference Colt Manual CM102, M16A1 Rifle Armorer / Depot Maintenance and Repair Manual ( there may be a copy online, I haven't looked ) A scan of a poor quality reprint...https://murdercube.com/files/Firearm%20Manuals/M16A1%20Armorer's%20Manual%20-%20Colt%20CM102.pdf TM 9-1005-249-14 ( there may be a copy online, I haven't looked ) There was.... http://www.earlsstuff.com/Manuals/AR15%20M16%20Handbook%20TM%209-1005-249-14.pdf |
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