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Posted: 2/17/2016 12:39:25 PM EDT
| I just bought an M16A1 type upper with teardrop forward assist, brass deflector, anodized black. I don't have it in hand yet, but it has no forge marhings. Did any of the Canadian uppers come without forge codes? It was advertised as Canadian C7. |
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I just bought an M16A1 type upper with teardrop forward assist, brass deflector, anodized black. I don't have it in hand yet, but it has no forge marhings. Did any of the Canadian uppers come without forge codes? It was advertised as Canadian C7. No. The first C7 were built at Colt had CH forge markings, then after that had CH with a Devtek stamped between the CH. Everything after that had the Devtek on it. It still might be Colt, check by the ejection port for markings. |
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I have an unmarked round forge C7 upper receiver (on the rifle in my avatar), and it's either Bushmaster or Colt as far as I can tell, but I lean more towards Bushmaster.
This! No. The first C7 were built at Colt had CH forge markings, then after that had CH with a Devtek stamped between the CH. Everything after that had the Devtek on it. It still might be Colt, check by the ejection port for markings. and this! Think everyone had that in favorites. Lot of BS info in those ads. Salesmanshit! One doesn't collect all that stuff by playing dumbass. |
| I have to disagree - I have understood for a long time that unmarked C7 uppers are Colt. I had a couple, definitely not Bushmaster. Maybe this has been disproven since then, but this was always my understanding, and held up by a number of experts. (Not me.) Mine definitely looked like Colt. Typically Colt grey. |
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It was the other guy  . Was that you? Ya, I bought it. Using it for a lightweight carbine build.No. Had been watching the auction for a few days. Checked in at 6 PM, and it had already blew past what I was willing to shell out. Nice upper though. Congratz. (sort of) 
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Update: the seller now thinks this is a commercial receiver and is going to refund my money. Seller, if you're on here, thanks again for your integrity and positive interactions. WTF? Perfectly good upper, assuming you didn't pay through the roof on false pretenses. 
Did it have the carbine/M4 feedramps? |
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Glad it worked out. PM he's got isn't Colt either and probably not USGI. A few other flags on his stuff also.
As stated above if it doesn't have verified proofs on it more than likely it's not a Colt. Possibly an exception or few but not an abundance like the commercial stuff. Today even the replacement part stuff had better have govt cage baggie or provenance is doubtful at best, expert or not unless stolen right off the base and even the cage bags are now being reproduced with crap inside. There is a reason Colt started having forge codes and C put on their stuff around 1969. It was for differentiation. Ask yourself why would any Colt M-16A1 produced since 1970ish have a forge code and every M-16A2 have a forge code but not a Colt M-16A1E or C-7 in between the two? C-7 = Canadian generally has a D plus forge M16A1E1 = USA generally has a C plus forge A few govt subs with A-2 forward but they also have forge codes. H&R & GM had identifiers but not forge codes. Bushmaster and DPMS sold tons of those things in both grey and black with and without codes but no proofs or Colt code. Is nice to find the grail pieces but generally they aren't without a grail price tag today and generally not on the www. Going to have to go in the boonies or underground more than likely for grail or have one fine looking little sister. Seller does have a couple nice pieces mixed in. M VP barrel looks a little Bubba'd but could easily be the pics. At least it's advertised as trashed. I understand why you didn't post before auction as your best buddy would have knifed you in the back for a deal and it's no different here. I get a lot of mails weekly / confidentially to check a lot of this stuff in question. Some are grateful and some aren't. When one gets in the mood to buy good judgement can easily become blinded. Same as doing home inspections, buyer or seller isn't going to like choking on a few coins. Hard to sell all NOS provenance authenticated retro but a few try harder than others. Generally if a barrel and receiver are split up it isn't because they shoot lights out either, regardless of what they are going to tell you. Ever notice 9 out of 10 used cars were driven by little old ladies or an elderly couple. |
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The easiest way to identify a real C7 upper is the "R" on the rear sight is always ground off because it doesn't translate into french. I have one that isn't "R" marked, but it looks just like any other new production C7 upper receiver to me. Only markings are the "l" by the sight wheel and the Anchor Harvey forge mark. 
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I have one that isn't "R" marked, but it looks just like any other new production C7 upper receiver to me. Only markings are the "l" by the sight wheel and the Anchor Harvey forge mark. <a href="http://s212.photobucket.com/user/dieselpowrguy85/media/AD6F8821-7B0F-43E7-A25A-FE0A96441345-19189-00001533F6165128_zpso044fb0k.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc145/dieselpowrguy85/AD6F8821-7B0F-43E7-A25A-FE0A96441345-19189-00001533F6165128_zpso044fb0k.jpg</a> Quoted:
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The easiest way to identify a real C7 upper is the "R" on the rear sight is always ground off because it doesn't translate into french. I have one that isn't "R" marked, but it looks just like any other new production C7 upper receiver to me. Only markings are the "l" by the sight wheel and the Anchor Harvey forge mark. <a href="http://s212.photobucket.com/user/dieselpowrguy85/media/AD6F8821-7B0F-43E7-A25A-FE0A96441345-19189-00001533F6165128_zpso044fb0k.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc145/dieselpowrguy85/AD6F8821-7B0F-43E7-A25A-FE0A96441345-19189-00001533F6165128_zpso044fb0k.jpg</a> He's referring to true Canadian C7 and C8 uppers. |
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Glad it worked out. PM he's got isn't Colt either and probably not USGI. A few other flags on his stuff also. As stated above if it doesn't have verified proofs on it more than likely it's not a Colt. Possibly an exception or few but not an abundance like the commercial stuff. Today even the replacement part stuff had better have govt cage baggie or provenance is doubtful at best, expert or not unless stolen right off the base and even the cage bags are now being reproduced with crap inside. There is a reason Colt started having forge codes and C put on their stuff around 1969. It was for differentiation. Ask yourself why would any Colt M-16A1 produced since 1970ish have a forge code and every M-16A2 have a forge code but not a Colt M-16A1E or C-7 in between the two? C-7 = Canadian generally has a D plus forge M16A1E1 = USA generally has a C plus forge A few govt subs with A-2 forward but they also have forge codes. H&R & GM had identifiers but not forge codes. Bushmaster and DPMS sold tons of those things in both grey and black with and without codes but no proofs or Colt code. Is nice to find the grail pieces but generally they aren't without a grail price tag today and generally not on the www. Going to have to go in the boonies or underground more than likely for grail or have one fine looking little sister. Seller does have a couple nice pieces mixed in. M VP barrel looks a little Bubba'd but could easily be the pics. At least it's advertised as trashed. I understand why you didn't post before auction as your best buddy would have knifed you in the back for a deal and it's no different here. I get a lot of mails weekly / confidentially to check a lot of this stuff in question. Some are grateful and some aren't. When one gets in the mood to buy good judgement can easily become blinded. Same as doing home inspections, buyer or seller isn't going to like choking on a few coins. Hard to sell all NOS provenance authenticated retro but a few try harder than others. Generally if a barrel and receiver are split up it isn't because they shoot lights out either, regardless of what they are going to tell you. Ever notice 9 out of 10 used cars were driven by little old ladies or an elderly couple. The unmarked Colt C7s were produced, IIRC, for the M16A1E1 - the 'filler' for the A2 uppers which they were behind on. Remember, this was an entirely different casting, and it does not surprise me that they didn't have forge codes. The splintered A is a commercial C7. The no forge code C7s are Colt, but not Diemaco. Does it have the FA BCG relief cuts? If so, then Colt. I would buy one in a heartbeat. In fact, is it now for sale again? |
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I'm all for learning something new. Thanks! I've seen no forge code proto's in museum with A-2 rear sight and I've seen no codes, A-1 sight, shell deflector BM's and DPMS without proofs. Also seen DK Bushy's less Colt proofs. Maine is close to Canada. Never been to Canada myself but Rebel is kinda leading authority on those. New info also says Dixie Machine / Kaiser for USA for A-1 603 style replacements and not Diemaco Canada which was always assumed by me anyway. Guy just posted cage info substantiating this.
We know BM and DPMS had to get them from somewhere as they probably weren't made in house early on.. Too much surplus and coins flying. Keep in mind in early years both companies as far as platform was related depended on govt subs to get there parts and pieces. We were buying BM grey surplus into mid 2000's. DPMS was founded in 1985 right smack in the middle of A-1 to A-2 or M-16A1E1 timeline. BM founded earlier but thinking AR platform late 80's mfg off memory as they had space guns so both companies right in the middle of production over run by whom ever mfg'd them. Did Colt even machine no code pieces? I don't know! If not C code marked logical assumption would be they didn't machine them after 1969 regardless of new or old casting as A-2 was new also. Colt still would have proofed them upon assembly and there are C H Code proofed M-16A1E1 pieces. Personally I missed out on the Colt M16A1E1's in real time but late 80's CAR-15 has codes, A-1 sight, shell deflector. Would make sense that if DPMS and BM had no code then Colt or their sub machined them. Still find it hard to fathom there were more than a few Colts for replacement without proofs for replacement due to introduction of A-2 but I believe Ol Gunner said he trained with or on them and may remember markings if any or both. This I could be wrong but if he did you would know. The pics I usually see of M-16A1E1's have codes on them but they may have been early shell deflector delete CH 603 with A-2 barrel and A-2 furniture. Getting old and I never really looked at the small stuff like some do, even today with retro as my hobby. I know if lugs aren't black on grey receiver something is up on the early stuff. Then I start looking for other things not quite right. When I see two or more I start questioning authenticity. Then I see things on a few different items more flags fly. Don't think many spending coins today really care like we did back when surplus parts were readily available and not reproduced. Most every mfg today has done a XM177?ish whether with Hbar or incorrect FH as long as it's 16". Now it's a copy of something they like with what's available to them within their monetary means. When I was really into them it was because parts were cheap surplus and 1/2 the cost of store bought Colt civilian models and I knew how to put them together correctly. Think of the tools used in 90's compared with today. Knew someone they stole an armorers kit and one had exactly what the armorer had. but not what Colt had. Only USGI I was going to see was generally stolen during this time frame. Some got surplused but most was dumpster dived or simply carried right off the base. Short window of use for the M16A1E1 platform in USA in comparison to other models. Not so in Canada. As stated true Canadian mfg C-7 isn't going to have the R at the arrow it will have been machined off. Another flag! This I didn't know until today. First Canadian's I'm pretty sure were Colt USA mfg CH code until up and running. Same as PM in Phillippines. First Elisco pieces were CH code with Colt internals. Pretty sure they were proofed also just like Canadian licensed Colts. Colt machined generally had a C in forge code since 1969ish and was proofed since initial introduction of more than just M-16 models. My Savage and Springfield's are factory proofed and high quality mfging has been doing it since 1600's throughout the world. Not like there is much info on M-16A1E1 except features (furniture, barrel etc) or should I say I look for much on them. It's a model that means little to me and I'm even left handed. I finally made a cheapo shell deflector out of a commercial battery post cover around 46 yrs old. Still use it on my slicksides. I actually prefer 604 models before forge codes and there are also some of those once the no codes were expired. Not in abundance but they exist with proofs also none the less. Most became SP-1 large pivot pin due to civillian purchase ability and US Govt reduced spending through all branches but all factory assembled are proofed. It's really good food for thought and kinda want to thank OP. Augee probably knows plenty about the CAR-15 carbines with A-1 sight and shell deflector. Not sure about Weapnsman and marine corp with M-16A1E1 but he doesn't miss much and has very good accounting. I remember my marine buddies getting A-1 sight Hbars but couldn't tell you code or any markings for that matter. Assumption would be C code on upper and barrel. We know the internals were C marked. Maybe time for more M-16A1E1 information as it's pretty much deemed retro by all of us. Regardless upper is back up for sale. #543121308 at $75 1 bid, ends in 5 days. Seller has done very good for present market and has some alright stuff. Might even be a member here. Seems to like retro. I was really only looking at the refinished 604 1/2 stripped and MVP 604 but ended up too rich for my blood and didn't want to spike price. The 602 barrel would have been in favorites if they hadn't mucked it all up removing the early bend gas tube. Obviously someone didn't know what they were doing. Had pieces to fix 604 and kinda wouldn't have minded giving the MVP 604 a run or two and then probably sending down the road as I don't need one and I really only care about busting the 10 ring out of a target when it's all said and done. I do like having some of the cool stuff but one really only needs so much of it. |
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I'm all for learning something new. Thanks! I've seen no forge proto's in museum with A-2 rear sight and I've seen no codes, A-1 sight, shell deflector BM's and DPMS without proofs. Also seen DK Bushy's less proofs. Maine is close to Canada. Never been to Canada myself but Rebel is kinda leading authority on those. BM and DPMS had to get them from somewhere. Missed out on the M16A1E1's in real time but late 80's CAR-15 has codes. Still find it hard to fathom there were more than a few for replacement without proofs due to introduction of A-2 but I believe Ol Gunner said he trained with or on them. This I could be wrong but if he did you would know. The pics I usually see of M-16A1E1's have codes on them but they may have been early shell deflector delete with A-2 barrel and A-2 furniture. Getting old. Short window of use for the platform in USA in comparison to other models. Not like there is much on them or should I say I look for much on them. Colt generally has a C and is proofed and I prefer models before forge codes personally. Regardless upper is back up for sale. #543121308 at $75 1 bid, ends 5 days. Seller has done good for present market and has some alright stuff. Might even be a memeber here. Seems to like retro. I was really only looking at refinished 604 1/2 stripped and MVP 604 but ended up too rich for my blood and didn't want to spike price. He was or still is a member here with user name rayjay. |
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"C7" style uppers were bought by the US mil in the mid/late-80s for arsenal refit onto old M16A1s. FN made some, and that's likely what we now know to be Dixie (D K forge codes) were as well.
This website has a lot of info on contracts and other interesting tidbits of you have the time to pour through it. http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw.html ETA: Colt also sourced Splintered A "C7" uppers in the late 90s/early 2000s. 733 uppers with them or with partial forge codes ground off aren't uncommon. As well, the Colt AR6320 exclusive to SAW used a splintered A upper that still had an "A-1" forge mark above the ejection port. |
| I have 2 C7 uppers that are Olympic cast blems they used to sell on their gun show tables years ago. These are anodized satin black with no markings. The blems are obvious flaking of the aluminum under the anodizing. I have another K code C7 with a grind mark under the anodizing where another letter was removed. |
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