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early commercial retro sticky. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/14/2015 2:11:23 PM EDT
| Can we start one for reference. |
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Originally Posted By HKILLER:
Can we start one for reference. Are you wanting to reference early complete commercial built retro rifles/carbines or retro part? Retro rifles/carbines built by individual's? Expand please on what your asking for. Ron |
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Originally Posted By HKILLER:
For example you find one at gun show or pawn shop that has not been modified heavyly . Posting pictures and details. After all there was a few other companies making ar15s other than colt. I think they have there place in the retro section. I agree, it would be good to have a thread describing non-Colt ARs. Where would we draw the line? A1 profile lowers? Pre-ban? Non ARs? (Bushmaster M17S, Daewoo?) |
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You mean like early PWA, or Sendra, stuff like that? Might be good to have a resource for when someone stumbles across something like that. I don't know that much about the pre "Retro-Fad" stuff.
(This is a "fad" you know. It will blow over soon). 
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Thanks, M.
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Originally Posted By yankee-V:
You mean like early PWA, or Sendra, stuff like that? Might be good to have a resource for when someone stumbles across something like that. I don't know that much about the pre "Retro-Fad" stuff. (This is a "fad" you know. It will blow over soon). yes, like purple anodize parts, lone star grips,hgs and many variations. |
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The problem is that even Colt was not consistent with what they used as they often had older parts on newer rifles just to use up old parts.
Imagine that with somebody like Sendra that was building with whatever they could get their hands on. I have owned one and it was all colt parts from what I remember but the next one coming down "the line" may have had almost no Colt parts or a mix of different era parts. |
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Originally Posted By Banshee35:
The problem is that even Colt was not consistent with what they used as they often had older parts on newer rifles just to use up old parts. Imagine that with somebody like Sendra that was building with whatever they could get their hands on. I have owned one and it was all colt parts from what I remember but the next one coming down "the line" may have had almost no Colt parts or a mix of different era parts. Good point. I get that a lot of the retro commercial items are problematic. But info about the lowers, and other parts the early manufs did make, and to the point, information such as you just provided might be useful to someone. |
Thanks, M.
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the variants in the little parts i've noticed over the years
found these on PWA, Olympic Arms, SGW, Essential Arms etc... plastic trigger guards plastic mag buttons with dots near the top and bottom cheap plastic A1 grips w/ molded A2 bump there are the sendra specific parts like sight wheels steel buffer tubes no pad port doors see my archived thread for pistol grip variations https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=534003 |
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Originally Posted By somebob:
I'll start, here's a J15 I just sold. http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9415.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9418.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9420.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9421.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9422.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9423.jpg~original Nice pics. Are those EAs very much in demand? Aside from it being pre-ban, I would think they are becoming retro-collectibles. |
Thanks, M.
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The only problem with this endeavor is that any possible combination of parts can be found on these early non-Colt lowers. As such, you really can't compile a useful database.
With the exception of SGW/Olympic Arms and Bushmaster, all the other A1 profile lowers were sold as stripped lowers. The fact that SGW and Bushmaster also sold stripped lowers further complicates matters. EA and PWA sold stripped lowers, not complete rifles. 99% of Sendra's were also sold as stripped lowers and a complete rifle could be a mix of anything. Just as today, people bought these to build into rifles from a parts kit. Quality wise, if you couldn't get Colt or, NIW GI parts the pecking order was pretty much as follows: Quality Parts (Bushmaster); they were the only game in town if you wanted a chrome lined barrel. Olympic Arms; despite the hate of the last decade from their super cheap offerings, Olympic was the go to place for quality kits and had the most options for barrels. Most match guns of the day had an Olympic barrel. Nesard; (Drasen's sister company to Sendra); they were the cheapest option out there for parts kits. Unfotunately the quality varied from OK (if you got lucky), to horrid with many parts being someone else's rejects or worn out surplus. Many uninformed used them as the basis for their builds and then wondered why their rifle had so many malfuctions. I honestly believe this helped to stoke the fires of "the AR is a jam-o-matic" in the eyes of the public. This rightfully made Colt the smart choice for reliability and helped them retain their resale value. Other than putting together a pictorial guide to A1 spec lowers with some time frames of production, this is a fools errand. YMMV, Wpns Man |
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Originally Posted By WpnsMan:
The only problem with this endeavor is that any possible combination of parts can be found on these early non-Colt lowers. As such, you really can't compile a useful database. With the exception of SGW/Olympic Arms and Bushmaster, all the other A1 profile lowers were sold as stripped lowers. The fact that SGW and Bushmaster also sold stripped lowers further complicates matters. EA and PWA sold stripped lowers, not complete rifles. 99% of Sendra's were also sold as stripped lowers and a complete rifle could be a mix of anything. Just as today, people bought these to build into rifles from a parts kit. Quality wise, if you couldn't get Colt or, NIW GI parts the pecking order was pretty much as follows: Quality Parts (Bushmaster); they were the only game in town if you wanted a chrome lined barrel. Olympic Arms; despite the hate of the last decade from their super cheap offerings, Olympic was the go to place for quality kits and had the most options for barrels. Most match guns of the day had an Olympic barrel. Nesard; (Drasen's sister company to Sendra); they were the cheapest option out there for parts kits. Unfotunately the quality varied from OK (if you got lucky), to horrid with many parts being someone else's rejects or worn out surplus. Many uninformed used them as the basis for their builds and then wondered why their rifle had so many malfuctions. I honestly believe this helped to stoke the fires of "the AR is a jam-o-matic" in the eyes of the public. This rightfully made Colt the smart choice for reliability and helped them retain their resale value. Other than putting together a pictorial guide to A1 spec lowers with some time frames of production, this is a fools errand. YMMV, Wpns Man This is very true, but just cause they were sub par parts doesn't mean they weren't on early commercial ar15s. Another thing I have noticed is some nice colt parts on these early creations. |
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My point was that you can encounter anything on a rifle built from a stripped lower and a parts kit. As such, a database will be worthless to someone trying to ascertain the history/quality of a rifle they encounter based on who manufactured the lower.
Sendra lower XXXX1 could have been built into a rifle by a discriminating individual from only new in the wrap GI or Colt comercial parts and be a quality rifle. The next Sendra lower off the line, XXXX2 may have been put together by an idiot using the cheapest, out of spec kit Nesard had to offer. Any potential buyer or, someone researching Sendra's today cannot draw an accurate conclusion as to the quality or definitive parts identification to a "Sendra AR15" from either example. Compiling a guide to commercial A1 Lowers would be a better direction to take. Wpns Man |
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Originally Posted By WpnsMan:
My point was that you can encounter anything on a rifle built from a stripped lower and a parts kit. As such, a database will be worthless to someone trying to ascertain the history/quality of a rifle they encounter based on who manufactured the lower. Sendra lower XXXX1 could have been built into a rifle by a discriminating individual from only new in the wrap GI or Colt comercial parts and be a quality rifle. The next Sendra lower off the line, XXXX2 may have been put together by an idiot using the cheapest, out of spec kit Nesard had to offer. Any potential buyer or, someone researching Sendra's today cannot draw an accurate conclusion as to the quality or definitive parts identification to a "Sendra AR15" from either example. Compiling a guide to commercial A1 Lowers would be a better direction to take. Wpns Man I think your right on the a1 lowers. |
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Originally Posted By boywonder777:
mag button and trigger guard probably plastic as well. the safeties have that raised circular part on the right side too. Originally Posted By boywonder777:
Originally Posted By HKILLER:
the lines on the upper and lower look good, lso handguards too? is that delta ring plastic? mag button and trigger guard probably plastic as well. the safeties have that raised circular part on the right side too. I had a plastic trigger guard with a part number one it I should have kept it. |
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Originally Posted By delete:
If you guys keep posting and showing pictures this thread will work itself out. Hkiller has a good idea going here. I support this. The Nay Sayers will move on soon, so just let them rant on and try not to encourage them much. LOL. Thanks Ron actually boywonder777 sparked this idea with a very well known person we know,that has lots of history with early ar15 commercial history. |
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Originally Posted By yankee-V:
Nice pics. Are those EAs very much in demand? Aside from it being pre-ban, I would think they are becoming retro-collectibles. Originally Posted By yankee-V:
Originally Posted By somebob:
I'll start, here's a J15 I just sold. http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9415.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9418.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9420.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9421.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9422.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9423.jpg~original Nice pics. Are those EAs very much in demand? Aside from it being pre-ban, I would think they are becoming retro-collectibles. Thanks. I don't think they are very collectable, I was into mine when I found it but got bored of it. I put it on GB and got what I wanted out of it, I don't know if that was a high or low price. In general I don't see complete rifles with BS parts sell for much more than a comprable stripped lower. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=481732177 Originally Posted By KYGun:
http://<a href=http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u660/KYGun/Essential%20Arms/EAafter11_zpsb34a4154.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u660/KYGun/Essential%20Arms/EAafter3_zps64903148.jpg</a>" /> I won this by a local online real estate auction. J15 essential arms lower with PM complete upper. I believe it to be an early 80s build. All a2 furniture, the rest is a1. It looks like someone spray painted the underside / inside of the upper receiver, there is black overspray on all the lower surfaces of the upper receiver. I know I sound like a broken record, but you might try hitting that with some lacquer thinner or paint stripper. I don't know what either of those will do to the plastic delta ring though! What kind of selector is that, I've been seeing ones that weren't sanded down very well on the left side like that. I have a neutered full auto selector that looks very similar to that one but haven't had time to try to identify it. I have recently seen pictures of selectors like that in Colt rifles but I can't remember the details, I think one was an early 70s SP1. |
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Originally Posted By somebob:
Thanks. I don't think they are very collectable, I was into mine when I found it but got bored of it. I put it on GB and got what I wanted out of it, I don't know if that was a high or low price. In general I don't see complete rifles with BS parts sell for much more than a comprable stripped lower. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=481732177 It looks like someone spray painted the underside / inside of the upper receiver, there is black overspray on all the lower surfaces of the upper receiver. I know I sound like a broken record, but you might try hitting that with some lacquer thinner or paint stripper. I don't know what either of those will do to the plastic delta ring though! What kind of selector is that, I've been seeing ones that weren't sanded down very well on the left side like that. I have a neutered full auto selector that looks very similar to that one but haven't had time to try to identify it. I have recently seen pictures of selectors like that in Colt rifles but I can't remember the details, I think one was an early 70s SP1. Originally Posted By somebob:
Originally Posted By yankee-V:
Originally Posted By somebob:
I'll start, here's a J15 I just sold. http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9415.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9418.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9420.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9421.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9422.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/J15/IMG_9423.jpg~original Nice pics. Are those EAs very much in demand? Aside from it being pre-ban, I would think they are becoming retro-collectibles. Thanks. I don't think they are very collectable, I was into mine when I found it but got bored of it. I put it on GB and got what I wanted out of it, I don't know if that was a high or low price. In general I don't see complete rifles with BS parts sell for much more than a comprable stripped lower. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=481732177 Originally Posted By KYGun:
http://<a href=http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u660/KYGun/Essential%20Arms/EAafter11_zpsb34a4154.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u660/KYGun/Essential%20Arms/EAafter3_zps64903148.jpg</a>" /> I won this by a local online real estate auction. J15 essential arms lower with PM complete upper. I believe it to be an early 80s build. All a2 furniture, the rest is a1. It looks like someone spray painted the underside / inside of the upper receiver, there is black overspray on all the lower surfaces of the upper receiver. I know I sound like a broken record, but you might try hitting that with some lacquer thinner or paint stripper. I don't know what either of those will do to the plastic delta ring though! What kind of selector is that, I've been seeing ones that weren't sanded down very well on the left side like that. I have a neutered full auto selector that looks very similar to that one but haven't had time to try to identify it. I have recently seen pictures of selectors like that in Colt rifles but I can't remember the details, I think one was an early 70s SP1. I do believe the dark spots are some kind of funky lighting/maybe oily spots. This one needs shooting. It's not made it there yet. |
| I just scored an early SGW this morning, the one with the receiver milled from bar stock. Built as an a1, it has a nice purplish LM (lar Martin Marietta) upper, CMP barrel. Oddly it has a Colt manufactured ar15 bolt carrier, and the rest is the usual vintage mix of surplus parts. Even came with the cleaning kit in the buttstock and a period bipod and case. All circa 1982, and in pretty nice shape. |
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Originally Posted By herd118:
I just scored an early SGW this morning, the one with the receiver milled from bar stock. Built as an a1, it has a nice purplish LM (lar Martin Marietta) upper, CMP barrel. Oddly it has a Colt manufactured ar15 bolt carrier, and the rest is the usual vintage mix of surplus parts. Even came with the cleaning kit in the buttstock and a period bipod and case. All circa 1982, and in pretty nice shape. Nice post pics when u can. |
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Originally Posted By delete:
If you guys keep posting and showing pictures this thread will work itself out. Hkiller has a good idea going here. I support this. The Nay Sayers will move on soon, so just let them rant on and try not to encourage them much. LOL. Thanks Ron I assume this was meant to counter my responses to the OP, FWIW, I'm not a Nay-Sayer, I was only stating that he needed to define where he wants to go with this. I was just pointing out that his original route wouldn't lead anywhere truly useful based on the variables when dealing with rifles built from parts kits. That is a far cry from compiling a data base of factory assembled rifles that others could use as a reliable reference. That is why I suggested a Retro lower guide as the two subjects are mutually exclusive in most cases unless you are discussing Colt products. As Oly and Bushmaster both sold stripped lowers in addtion to complete rifles, it muddies the waters as to what is "correct" for either manufacturer. See my point? I would agree that compiling a guide to commercial parts would be useful in its own right. It could educate new members on how to ID non-military parts from back in the day and potentially help them avoid making a bad purchase. The A2'ish Oly pistol grip was used on a lot of factory assembled rifles, though it was also included in Oly parts kits for some time. In my experience, plastic trigger guards, mag-catch buttons and later on, slip rings are a 99% indication that a parts kit originated from Nesard. At that point all other parts should become suspect and require further inspection. Another key indicator of a Nesard parts kit is barrels with the FSB attached with roll pins as opposed to taper pins. I repaired or replaced numerous Nesard barrels back in the day that wouldn't run right because the barrel had an out of spec chamber, gas port or, a loose FSB. The "Frugal" owners that thought they got a screaming "Good deal" were never happy to hear they had to spend some money to replace the barrels with something of quality from Oly, Quality parts or, find a serviceable GI. YMMV, Wpns Man |
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this thread needs more pics of this early non-colt commercial stuff, so I'll just leave these here
Sendra/Nessard early commercial port door these are archived pics from another member 
Lone Star Ordnance 
I didn't buy this as a NIB compete upper, so can't confirm was factory built this way, but was told this is an early RRA ban era 723 clone 
receiver is Anchor Harvey with no proof marks..barrel and hg's are definitely RRA |
the A2 is not now, nor will it ever be, retro......but I still like 'em
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Originally Posted By somebob:
This is an early SGW lower, machined from a billet. http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/sgw_billet/IMG_9451.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/sgw_billet/IMG_9453.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/sgw_billet/IMG_9455.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/sgw_billet/IMG_9463.jpg~original http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l626/somebob/lowers/sgw_billet/IMG_9465.jpg~original Yep, this is the lower I got. Took it home, and replaced the FCG, back in the day Olympic used "unmodified" surplus parts... |
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i've always thought the early ones before everyone standardized on the forgings were cool. like the early SGW/Palmetto/Frankford billet lowers.
The EA and DPMS cast ones were kind of interesting as well. this one i really like, not many people know about this one M-15 from Advanced Armament out of Lingleville, TX 
more pics here: https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=409816 |
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Originally Posted By hoverflt:
Billet SGW lower also marked Frankford Arsenal. The upper appears to be a copy of the GI A1 upper and marked FA on the carrying handle. http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr23/hoverflt/SGW_zpski8dnvcx.jpg ETA: Isn't that one of the Norinco upper receivers? Look at the contour above and in front of the port door. Originally Posted By boywonder777:
i've always thought the early ones before everyone standardized on the forgings were cool. like the early SGW/Palmetto/Frankford billet lowers. The EA and DPMS cast ones were kind of interesting as well. this one i really like, not many people know about this one M-15 from Advanced Armament out of Lingleville, TX http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/whitedingo/IMG_1795.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/whitedingo/IMG_1799small.jpg more pics here: https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=409816 Originally Posted By herd118:
In all it's purple glory: http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c286/herd118/image.jpg1_3.jpg http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c286/herd118/image.jpg3_2.jpg Hey guys, want to contribute some more but I'm going to be on the road for a month or so. Don't let this thread die! Here's an old purple shot of mine. Sendra lower, upper and buffer tube that were said to come off an old Sendra, I'm not sure where the charging handle came from. 
More purple parts, the purple carbine buffer is filled with shot. 
ETA: Slowly migrating to new image hosting. 
ETA: More pictures 
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| Wow, look at that Advanced Armaments lower...I thought I've seen most preban lowers living in CT, but that thing is crazy looking! I love all the old Colt small parts on these lowers, namely the pins, mag buttons, and selectors. The Frankfurt Arsonal Lower appears to have an in house made mag catch. |
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Originally Posted By boywonder777:
one thing i noticed on the frankford arsenal upper. doesn't that look like the no forge code/no proof mark square forge uppers often attributed to norinco? http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr23/hoverflt/SGW%20rec2_zpsasdwydjr.jpg It does indeed, except with U.S. Site Wheel, FA, and port door. |
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Originally Posted By boywonder777:
one thing i noticed on the frankford arsenal upper. doesn't that look like the no forge code/no proof mark square forge uppers often attributed to norinco? http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr23/hoverflt/SGW%20rec2_zpsasdwydjr.jpg Protect that upper with a shell deflector! |
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Originally Posted By KYGun:
Protect that upper with a shell deflector! Originally Posted By KYGun:
Originally Posted By boywonder777:
one thing i noticed on the frankford arsenal upper. doesn't that look like the no forge code/no proof mark square forge uppers often attributed to norinco? http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr23/hoverflt/SGW%20rec2_zpsasdwydjr.jpg Protect that upper with a shell deflector! Or at least stick on velcro patch! 
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RBRD is a pain - ever searching for the elusive dimpled safety or mag catch! It never ends!
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Originally Posted By HKILLER:
Sgw lower a1. <a href="http://s304.photobucket.com/user/sergio762951/media/20150528_155751_zpsqjlgqjdq.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn163/sergio762951/20150528_155751_zpsqjlgqjdq.jpg</a> Had two of those. Sold them for a hefty profit. |
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Originally Posted By Pro2ndAm:
Pics of a DPMS cast A1 lower that I sold a while back to someone in CT. I don't know who did the castings before machining, but these looks exactly like the Essential Arms A1 lowers, down to the casting imperfections. <a href="http://s1271.photobucket.com/user/pro2ndam/media/Sold%20Stuff/P1010144.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj634/pro2ndam/Sold%20Stuff/P1010144.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1271.photobucket.com/user/pro2ndam/media/Sold%20Stuff/P1010145.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj634/pro2ndam/Sold%20Stuff/P1010145.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1271.photobucket.com/user/pro2ndam/media/Sold%20Stuff/P1010151.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj634/pro2ndam/Sold%20Stuff/P1010151.jpg</a> Essential Arms sold the tooling to DPMS before the ban. DPMS didn't use the cast ones for very long before moving to forged ones but a lot of the DPMS ones are postban. |
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Mostly a lurker here, but another user pointed this thread out to me last night over a beer.
Always wanted a CAR15ish retro, stumbled into the barrel assy, scrounged the rest from various sources. No all correct, but correct enough for me. Since I don't see Eagle Arms represented yet, here you go... SGW CAR-AR barrel assy, Eagle Arms A1 lower that was stripped, Colt A1 BCG, Bushmaster (I think) six-hole hand guards and plastic CAR stock, unknown grip. Unknown A1 upper (no forge markings). Pins, FCG, buffer tube and other lower parts are all current production. 
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beer and Retro sounds good to me.
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Originally Posted By ID-shooting: Mostly a lurker here, but another user pointed this thread out to me last night over a beer. Always wanted a CAR15ish retro, stumbled into the barrel assy, scrounged the rest from various sources. No all correct, but correct enough for me. Since I don't see Eagle Arms represented yet, here you go... SGW CAR-AR barrel assy, Eagle Arms A1 lower that was stripped, Colt A1 BCG, Bushmaster (I think) six-hole hand guards and plastic CAR stock, unknown grip. Unknown A1 upper (no forge markings). Pins, FCG, buffer tube and other lower parts are all current production. http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s363/boiseguy69/IMG_20150531_085408881_zpsnaqb9hdt.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s363/boiseguy69/IMG_20150531_084538852_zpsn1xpwglp.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s363/boiseguy69/IMG_20150502_053150454_zpskehpgmgk.jpg http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s363/boiseguy69/IMG_20150502_053120910_zpswsnvaklw.jpg Nice looking carbine. My first personally owned AR was a pre-ban A2 HBAR style rifle with the same lower. I sold it to someone (I think in NY) in early 2005 after the ban expired and I was able to buy new stuff. I kind of wish I'd held onto it now that I'm more into retros, but selling it at the time allowed someone to buy an "assault weapon" who didn't have the option to buy new.  |
early commercial retro sticky. (Page 1 of 2)
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