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Posted: 5/11/2015 8:46:42 AM EDT
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http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=483071129
looks like welded up sear pin holes to me. 
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Sure does look welded, but the selector doesn't look like it ever had "auto" or "burst" engraving. It is/was a converted SP1, not a factory M16. Converted SP1's wouldn't have those markings unless added. That right there is a machinegun, no matter the degree of ignorance. Bad news for all parties involved. |
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Removed sear block ? That is what it appears to be, unless someone had taken this lower and had an auto sear installed at some time. I have heard of some of the early Colt SP1s having legal full-auto conversions done. I have also seen some Sporter lowers with sear blocks removed, which is also legal (according to a letter the ATF had written to an individual back in 1997) as long as the holes were filled or blind pins were installed. It is hard to say what the case is with this lower, but I suspect that someone did, or try to, convert this to a full-auto lower at sometime and the hole was later filled in order to make the lower sellable as a non-NFA item. |
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SP1 production was over before the advent of sear blocks. Unless someone added a sear block during the ban for some stupid reason, I can't see it beeing a removed sear block, and neither would the Alphabet Boys.
Unless the seller takes the auction down and cuts that bad boy up, I see nothing butt asspain in someone's future. 
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That is what it appears to be, unless someone had taken this lower and had an auto sear installed at some time. I have heard of some of the early Colt SP1s having legal full-auto conversions done. I have also seen some Sporter lowers with sear blocks removed, which is also legal (according to a letter the ATF had written to an individual back in 1997) as long as the holes were filled or blind pins were installed. It is hard to say what the case is with this lower, but I suspect that someone did, or try to, convert this to a full-auto lower at sometime and the hole was later filled in order to make the lower sellable as a non-NFA item. Quoted:
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Removed sear block ? That is what it appears to be, unless someone had taken this lower and had an auto sear installed at some time. I have heard of some of the early Colt SP1s having legal full-auto conversions done. I have also seen some Sporter lowers with sear blocks removed, which is also legal (according to a letter the ATF had written to an individual back in 1997) as long as the holes were filled or blind pins were installed. It is hard to say what the case is with this lower, but I suspect that someone did, or try to, convert this to a full-auto lower at sometime and the hole was later filled in order to make the lower sellable as a non-NFA item. Prior to 1986 you could convert your AR15s to full auto with an ATF form 1 and a $200 tax stamp, but once it's in the registry and reclassified as a MG, I don't think there is any going back. So I would say this was a non registered attempt, failure & cover up. I would also like to see inside the lower to see if the sear holes are visible and all the way through. Then again it could actually just be discolored for some reason in those spots. |
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Interesting that the auction has pictures from all angles except looking down into the receiver. I don't think that SP-1's had a sear block so the hole probably wasn't from that. However, the weld also looks too far back to be for an auto sear. Either way, no point in messing with this auction and I'd stay clear. |
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I would have no problem placing a bid on this lower, if I could get it cheap. If it is or was drilled, I would just jb weld the inside holes and Norrells the whole thing. I would run the ser number through my LEO buddy and if it's clean it's clean. If it comes back as stolen, your LEO buddy had better be able to produce the gun he just ran or he could be in trouble. |
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Quoted: I would have no problem placing a bid on this lower, if I could get it cheap. If it is or was drilled, I would just jb weld the inside holes and Norrells the whole thing. I would run the ser number through my LEO buddy and if it's clean it's clean. The problem with that is if it was once illegally converted to a mg and converted back, then under the "once a mg, always a mg" rule, if you buy it, you would be in possession of an illegal mg. |
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You are kidding, right? So what you're saying is that you have no problem buying an illegal machinegun?
Good luck with that. Quoted:
I would have no problem placing a bid on this lower, if I could get it cheap. If it is or was drilled, I would just jb weld the inside holes and Norrells the whole thing. I would run the ser number through my LEO buddy and if it's clean it's clean. |
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You are kidding, right? So what you're saying is that you have no problem buying an illegal machinegun? Good luck with that. Quoted:
You are kidding, right? So what you're saying is that you have no problem buying an illegal machinegun? Good luck with that. Quoted:
I would have no problem placing a bid on this lower, if I could get it cheap. If it is or was drilled, I would just jb weld the inside holes and Norrells the whole thing. I would run the ser number through my LEO buddy and if it's clean it's clean. It is only an illegal MG if it was actually converted and there is no way of knowing that unless there is documentation to prove it. It could be that someone was trying to convert it, but never did and they just had the holes filled. Just drilling holes does not constitute making a MG. Anyone could write down the SN and call the ATF to see if it was ever registered as a MG. |
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It is only an illegal MG if it was actually converted and there is no way of knowing that unless there is documentation to prove it. It could be that someone was trying to convert it, but never did and they just had the holes filled. Just drilling holes does not constitute making a MG. Anyone could write down the SN and call the ATF to see if it was ever registered as a MG. Quoted:
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You are kidding, right? So what you're saying is that you have no problem buying an illegal machinegun? Good luck with that. Quoted:
I would have no problem placing a bid on this lower, if I could get it cheap. If it is or was drilled, I would just jb weld the inside holes and Norrells the whole thing. I would run the ser number through my LEO buddy and if it's clean it's clean. It is only an illegal MG if it was actually converted and there is no way of knowing that unless there is documentation to prove it. It could be that someone was trying to convert it, but never did and they just had the holes filled. Just drilling holes does not constitute making a MG. Anyone could write down the SN and call the ATF to see if it was ever registered as a MG. No. Drilling those holes is EXACTLY what makes it an MG. Paperwork has nothing to do with it. If the holes were EVER there, even if they are filled in, it is, and always will be a machinegun, until properly demiled. Period. |
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Interesting that the auction has pictures from all angles except looking down into the receiver. I don't think that SP-1's had a sear block so the hole probably wasn't from that. However, the weld also looks too far back to be for an auto sear. Either way, no point in messing with this auction and I'd stay clear. 
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No. Drilling those holes is EXACTLY what makes it an MG. Paperwork has nothing to do with it. If the holes were EVER there, even if they are filled in, it is, and always will be a machinegun, until properly demiled. Period. Quoted:
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You are kidding, right? So what you're saying is that you have no problem buying an illegal machinegun? Good luck with that. Quoted:
I would have no problem placing a bid on this lower, if I could get it cheap. If it is or was drilled, I would just jb weld the inside holes and Norrells the whole thing. I would run the ser number through my LEO buddy and if it's clean it's clean. It is only an illegal MG if it was actually converted and there is no way of knowing that unless there is documentation to prove it. It could be that someone was trying to convert it, but never did and they just had the holes filled. Just drilling holes does not constitute making a MG. Anyone could write down the SN and call the ATF to see if it was ever registered as a MG. No. Drilling those holes is EXACTLY what makes it an MG. Paperwork has nothing to do with it. If the holes were EVER there, even if they are filled in, it is, and always will be a machinegun, until properly demiled. Period. This. For example, an AK receiver with the extra hole for the auto sear is a machine gun. BATFE even seized a batch of Saigas that had the Y stamping for the sear hole. |
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Seller added a couple pics of the inside. Also added this to the description:
"By request, I have added pictures of the Fire Control parts. They appear to be the Original Colt. This is a Semi Auto -not- FA. I don't know what caused the discoloration, it was there when I bought. The metal in not warped or corroded. The discoloration is on the inside also, but not as much. About 1/2 as much. Thanks for looking at my Auction. " |
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Looking at the new pic's of the Fire Control Pocket & the FCG, it does not appear to have been modified to accept an auto-sear. It is strange, however, where the only discoloration's are. But it might just be worth watching this auction, to see where the price goes. |
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The seller says "the discoloration is on the inside also, but not as much. About 1/2 as much." Sounds to me like the holes went through.
Doesn't matter if the pocket has been milled out, you can modify an auto sear to fit and function in a semi auto lower with no mods to the lower other than the sear pin holes. |
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Hmmmmm.........I don't know what's been done to that lower. First thing I see is that the "hole" on the left side, if there ever was actually one, is not in the correct location for a sear pin. Looks like the "hole" was placed to the rear of centerline of the selector hole......closer to where the pinned block hole would have been, had that lower had a block. (which it did not from the factory) Pinned blocks were only pinned from one side also, correct?
Of course, that is just speculation on my part, as you can't actually tell where the "hole" was......just going off of the approx. center of the heat signature. Another question I would have is this......let's say it was a through hole, but it's in an incorrect location for a sear pin......is that a machine gun? I realize that if the hole were in the correct location it would be a machine gun, even if the hole were welded shut, as the ATF considers a receiver "once a machine gun always a machine gun". How close to the correct location can a hole be and not be a MG? |
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Hmmmmm.........I don't know what's been done to that lower. First thing I see is that the "hole" on the left side, if there ever was actually one, is not in the correct location for a sear pin. Looks like the "hole" was placed to the rear of centerline of the selector hole......closer to where the pinned block hole would have been, had that lower had a block. (which it did not from the factory) Pinned blocks were only pinned from one side also, correct? Of course, that is just speculation on my part, as you can't actually tell where the "hole" was......just going off of the approx. center of the heat signature. Another question I would have is this......let's say it was a through hole, but it's in an incorrect location for a sear pin......is that a machine gun? I realize that if the hole were in the correct location it would be a machine gun, even if the hole were welded shut, as the ATF considers a receiver "once a machine gun always a machine gun". How close to the correct location can a hole be and not be a MG? Some colt lowers had a sear block with pins on both ends. |
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Hmmmmm.........I don't know what's been done to that lower. First thing I see is that the "hole" on the left side, if there ever was actually one, is not in the correct location for a sear pin. Looks like the "hole" was placed to the rear of centerline of the selector hole......closer to where the pinned block hole would have been, had that lower had a block. (which it did not from the factory) Pinned blocks were only pinned from one side also, correct? Of course, that is just speculation on my part, as you can't actually tell where the "hole" was......just going off of the approx. center of the heat signature. Another question I would have is this......let's say it was a through hole, but it's in an incorrect location for a sear pin......is that a machine gun? I realize that if the hole were in the correct location it would be a machine gun, even if the hole were welded shut, as the ATF considers a receiver "once a machine gun always a machine gun". How close to the correct location can a hole be and not be a MG? I see your point here, but the correct place for the auto sear hole on both sides is definitely covered by the JB weld, or whatever it is. Would be nice to get better pics of the inside walls. |
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Some colt lowers had a sear block with pins on both ends. Quoted:
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Hmmmmm.........I don't know what's been done to that lower. First thing I see is that the "hole" on the left side, if there ever was actually one, is not in the correct location for a sear pin. Looks like the "hole" was placed to the rear of centerline of the selector hole......closer to where the pinned block hole would have been, had that lower had a block. (which it did not from the factory) Pinned blocks were only pinned from one side also, correct? Of course, that is just speculation on my part, as you can't actually tell where the "hole" was......just going off of the approx. center of the heat signature. Another question I would have is this......let's say it was a through hole, but it's in an incorrect location for a sear pin......is that a machine gun? I realize that if the hole were in the correct location it would be a machine gun, even if the hole were welded shut, as the ATF considers a receiver "once a machine gun always a machine gun". How close to the correct location can a hole be and not be a MG? Some colt lowers had a sear block with pins on both ends. Some Colt lowers did have sear blocks, but SP1's did not and the ad states this is an SP1 lower.. |
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Is it an MG? No. Was it ever an MG? There is no way to know, all evidence is circumstantial. I'd own it and not bat an eye. If you come upon a half eaten blueberry pie in your kitchen, and your 3 year old is standing there with his hands and mouth covered in blueberry pie filling, that is also limited to circumstantial evidence. Kid's still getting punished. I guess if the ATF of the local popo is out for you, they will get you regardless for something else if they can't pin an NFA violation on you. It's still not worth the risk to me, unless there is something super desirable about that particular firearm. |
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If you come upon a half eaten blueberry pie in your kitchen, and your 3 year old is standing there with his hands and mouth covered in blueberry pie filling, that is also limited to circumstantial evidence. Kid's still getting punished. I guess if the ATF of the local popo is out for you, they will get you regardless for something else if they can't pin an NFA violation on you. It's still not worth the risk to me, unless there is something super desirable about that particular firearm. Quoted:
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Is it an MG? No. Was it ever an MG? There is no way to know, all evidence is circumstantial. I'd own it and not bat an eye. If you come upon a half eaten blueberry pie in your kitchen, and your 3 year old is standing there with his hands and mouth covered in blueberry pie filling, that is also limited to circumstantial evidence. Kid's still getting punished. I guess if the ATF of the local popo is out for you, they will get you regardless for something else if they can't pin an NFA violation on you. It's still not worth the risk to me, unless there is something super desirable about that particular firearm. Totally different analogy. A more accurate one would be if If you come upon a untouched blueberry pie in your kitchen, and your 3 year old is standing there with his hands and mouth covered in blueberry pie filling. |
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Totally different analogy. A more accurate one would be if If you come upon a untouched blueberry pie in your kitchen, and your 3 year old is standing there with his hands and mouth covered in blueberry pie filling. Quoted:
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Is it an MG? No. Was it ever an MG? There is no way to know, all evidence is circumstantial. I'd own it and not bat an eye. If you come upon a half eaten blueberry pie in your kitchen, and your 3 year old is standing there with his hands and mouth covered in blueberry pie filling, that is also limited to circumstantial evidence. Kid's still getting punished. I guess if the ATF of the local popo is out for you, they will get you regardless for something else if they can't pin an NFA violation on you. It's still not worth the risk to me, unless there is something super desirable about that particular firearm. Totally different analogy. A more accurate one would be if If you come upon a untouched blueberry pie in your kitchen, and your 3 year old is standing there with his hands and mouth covered in blueberry pie filling. True. But if I am the ATF I will testify to the likelihood that the child machined a small hole in the bottom of the pie plate, sucked out the filling, and then welded it up again. |
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True. But if I am the ATF I will testify to the likelihood that the child machined a small hole in the bottom of the pie plate, sucked out the filling, and then welded it up again. Quoted:
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Is it an MG? No. Was it ever an MG? There is no way to know, all evidence is circumstantial. I'd own it and not bat an eye. If you come upon a half eaten blueberry pie in your kitchen, and your 3 year old is standing there with his hands and mouth covered in blueberry pie filling, that is also limited to circumstantial evidence. Kid's still getting punished. I guess if the ATF of the local popo is out for you, they will get you regardless for something else if they can't pin an NFA violation on you. It's still not worth the risk to me, unless there is something super desirable about that particular firearm. Totally different analogy. A more accurate one would be if If you come upon a untouched blueberry pie in your kitchen, and your 3 year old is standing there with his hands and mouth covered in blueberry pie filling. True. But if I am the ATF I will testify to the likelihood that the child machined a small hole in the bottom of the pie plate, sucked out the filling, and then welded it up again. But the pie still has its filling. 
Did he take some filling out? Yeah, probably. But which filling did he take? Was it filling from this one tiny spot and he just put it back or did he take a bunch of filling, resulting not in a hole, but in large void that he then refilled?
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But the pie still has its filling.
Did he take some filling out? Yeah, probably. But which filling did he take? Was it filling from this one tiny spot and he just put it back or did he take a bunch of filling, resulting not in a hole, but in large void that he then refilled?
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Is it an MG? No. Was it ever an MG? There is no way to know, all evidence is circumstantial. I'd own it and not bat an eye. If you come upon a half eaten blueberry pie in your kitchen, and your 3 year old is standing there with his hands and mouth covered in blueberry pie filling, that is also limited to circumstantial evidence. Kid's still getting punished. I guess if the ATF of the local popo is out for you, they will get you regardless for something else if they can't pin an NFA violation on you. It's still not worth the risk to me, unless there is something super desirable about that particular firearm. Totally different analogy. A more accurate one would be if If you come upon a untouched blueberry pie in your kitchen, and your 3 year old is standing there with his hands and mouth covered in blueberry pie filling. True. But if I am the ATF I will testify to the likelihood that the child machined a small hole in the bottom of the pie plate, sucked out the filling, and then welded it up again. But the pie still has its filling.
Did he take some filling out? Yeah, probably. But which filling did he take? Was it filling from this one tiny spot and he just put it back or did he take a bunch of filling, resulting not in a hole, but in large void that he then refilled?
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