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With all due respect to the OP and anyone else who have done the same,I'm bothered that after all the HARD WORK,and RESEARCH of these folks who created the original RBR>
M Richardson aka "Capt Richardson" Original Site Administrator S Siebler aka "ScottRyan" Colt Historian J Trevithick aka "ThatGuy" Black Rifle Historian D Watters aka "DEWatters" Timeline Historian M. Eklund aka "Ekie" Information and Photographs I'll add Tgus who is VERY generous with pics of his original "real deal" rifles,,I'm bothered when folks take parts that are a generation off and call their build something it's not. To me,that's a bit of a slap in the face to the above folks who devoted so much time and effort to to break down each rifle to it's bare bones. Ekie's guides are tacked here for a reason,to help us ID each model and model component as they were. |
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With all due respect to the OP and anyone else who have done the same,I'm bothered that after all the HARD WORK,and RESEARCH of these folks who created the original RBR> M Richardson aka "Capt Richardson" Original Site Administrator S Siebler aka "ScottRyan" Colt Historian J Trevithick aka "ThatGuy" Black Rifle Historian D Watters aka "DEWatters" Timeline Historian M. Eklund aka "Ekie" Information and Photographs I'll add Tgus who is VERY generous with pics of his original "real deal" rifles,,I'm bothered when folks take parts that are a generation off and call their build something it's not. To me,that's a bit of a slap in the face to the above folks who devoted so much time and effort to to break down each rifle to it's bare bones. Ekie's guides are tacked here for a reason,to help us ID each model and model component as they were. I think he is trying to get it closer to a correct 602 I don't think he is trying to offend anyone by not being 100 percent correct. |
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Might be worth reading and researching.Your upper receiver is a late (post 1974) 604 round forge receiver with forge codes,,,602s were 1963-64 and have no forge code and are very early square forge,,,you have the raised UP and arrow whereas the 602 is engraved,just to start.Look close at that RBR ID pic,the charging handle is a triangle one.The area above the charging handle will have 3 flats,just like a 601,and there will be a tiny hole (about the size of a number 69 drill bit) for the port door cover spring. Barrel will be either a vp-12,,M vp-12 with cast FSB,or M vp-12 with forged FSB. PS,you need not remind me what a 602 is,or has in it as it's my holy grail of M16 types,and my original upper is just that,,original. And before someone jumps in and talks about late 602s with the round area above the charging handle,,the old timers tell me those are transitional 604s. If you would like close ups of a 602 receiver,I'll be happy to post some in the same spirit that Tgus did for me when I was researching 602s. |
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I think he is trying to get it closer to a correct 602 I don't think he is trying to offend anyone by not being 100 percent correct. Quoted:
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With all due respect to the OP and anyone else who have done the same,I'm bothered that after all the HARD WORK,and RESEARCH of these folks who created the original RBR> M Richardson aka "Capt Richardson" Original Site Administrator S Siebler aka "ScottRyan" Colt Historian J Trevithick aka "ThatGuy" Black Rifle Historian D Watters aka "DEWatters" Timeline Historian M. Eklund aka "Ekie" Information and Photographs I'll add Tgus who is VERY generous with pics of his original "real deal" rifles,,I'm bothered when folks take parts that are a generation off and call their build something it's not. To me,that's a bit of a slap in the face to the above folks who devoted so much time and effort to to break down each rifle to it's bare bones. Ekie's guides are tacked here for a reason,to help us ID each model and model component as they were. I think he is trying to get it closer to a correct 602 I don't think he is trying to offend anyone by not being 100 percent correct. Correct. It is extremely difficult to build a RBR with 100% correctness. I try to get as close as I can to suit me. I would still like to get an Edgewater buffer for my 602 build, but the price on them prevents me from getting one. I have multiple builds (727 rebuild, 753, 607, and two non-RBR ARs) going on right now along with a car project (modified MINI COOPER). I have to disperse my money as I see fit. SEMPER FI |
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Might be worth reading and researching.Your upper receiver is a late (post 1974) 604 round forge receiver with forge codes,,,602s were 1963-64 and have no forge code and are very early square forge,,,you have the raised UP and arrow whereas the 602 is engraved,just to start.Look close at that RBR ID pic,the charging handle is a triangle one.The area above the charging handle will have 3 flats,just like a 601,and there will be a tiny hole (about the size of a number 69 drill bit) for the port door cover spring. Barrel will be either a vp-12,,M vp-12 with cast FSB,or M vp-12 with forged FSB. PS,you need not remind me what a 602 is,or has in it as it's my holy grail of M16 types,and my original upper is just that,,original. And before someone jumps in and talks about late 602s with the round area above the charging handle,,the old timers tell me those are transitional 604s. Quoted:
Might be worth reading and researching.Your upper receiver is a late (post 1974) 604 round forge receiver with forge codes,,,602s were 1963-64 and have no forge code and are very early square forge,,,you have the raised UP and arrow whereas the 602 is engraved,just to start.Look close at that RBR ID pic,the charging handle is a triangle one.The area above the charging handle will have 3 flats,just like a 601,and there will be a tiny hole (about the size of a number 69 drill bit) for the port door cover spring. Barrel will be either a vp-12,,M vp-12 with cast FSB,or M vp-12 with forged FSB. PS,you need not remind me what a 602 is,or has in it as it's my holy grail of M16 types,and my original upper is just that,,original. And before someone jumps in and talks about late 602s with the round area above the charging handle,,the old timers tell me those are transitional 604s. Truth be known, the upper is a repurposed SP1 large hole upper. |
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OP don't take offense to the comments. I think everyone is just trying to help you get it closer to looking like a 602. If I were you I would dremel the directional arrow off and send it to John Braceman to be engraved. After that send it to US Anodizing or John Thomas to be anodized. As far as the edge water buffer goes, I wouldn't even worry about getting one. It can't be seen and I have 2 of them and they are just for looks. I put a modern buffer in when I shoot.
This shouldn't cost you over a $100. After that get a type C stock and then you can call it a 602. I know this seems like a lot of $ but just take your time and do it as funds allow. Hell you don't even have to worry about the early bend gas tube. I tell you what. If you do all of this, I will pay it forward and send you a free 602 grip, free of charge. ETA: I forgot to add that it also needs to be reprofiled. That will cost you a little more than $100. IM me and I can offer you a faux 601 upper. All you would have to do is get the directional arrow engraved and re anodized. You could sell your current upper to recover some of your funds. The upper I'm offering has already been reprofiled. Hope this helps and let me know. |
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Us "ole timers" are here to help too. We're (Rob & I and I'm sure many of the hive) just trying to help point out the misinformation and or misunderstanding in identifying the original rifles and what goes on or in them. It took a LOT of research, much of which is still ongoing, to compile what each model was and is. If I was new to the forum and saw this post, I would assume this nice rifle to be a 602. As M1 pointed out, it is far from a 602. Those of us who have done our best to build the holy grail, with all original parts but the lower, have spent years in the process. Those who have done reproductions with various other parts have at least attempted to make a newer model part look like an original 602 part. As M1 pointed out, Ekie's guide is tacked at the top and should be studied. Another way to study is by searching the archives for other members 602 builds. Here you'll find detailed pictures/descriptions of each and every part that went into recreating this very early model Colt.
We don't want to deter building or restoration of old Colt rifles but we do want the information to stay factual and historically correct. |
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Us "ole timers" are here to help too. We're (Rob & I and I'm sure many of the hive) just trying to help point out the misinformation and or misunderstanding in identifying the original rifles and what goes on or in them. It took a LOT of research, much of which is still ongoing, to compile what each model was and is. If I was new to the forum and saw this post, I would assume this nice rifle to be a 602. As M1 pointed out, it is far from a 602. Those of us who have done our best to build the holy grail, with all original parts but the lower, have spent years in the process. Those who have done reproductions with various other parts have at least attempted to make a newer model part look like an original 602 part. As M1 pointed out, Ekie's guide is tacked at the top and should be studied. Another way to study is by searching the archives for other members 602 builds. Here you'll find detailed pictures/descriptions of each and every part that went into recreating this very early model Colt. We don't want to deter building or restoration of old Colt rifles but we do want the information to stay factual and historically correct. Well said sniper,,better job then I did.  I certainly don't want the OP or ANYONE to be discouraged,or insulted for that matter, by what I wrote,,we all want the same thing.The best possible historic replica of some important rifles,and present them as correctly as possible.
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I appreciate all of the offers. HKILLER is hooking me up with a few goodies he and I have talked about.
In regard to the comments a few of you have made, I am in no way insulted. I will say this, I like my RBRs built as close to the real thing as I can within my budget. I am not a purist like some of you. I do not build museum pieces. I build them to appease me. My opinion is the only one that matters. Like I said earlier, I have a lot of projects going on and all of this without a job right now. I am trying to build five ARs right now. Builds are going very slowly right now because of the wait on NDS receivers and money. On top of all of this, I am going to have to wait for months to get my Form 1 back for my 607 build. I can't even start that until I get the lower from NDS. My 1911 sales have slowed down to a standstill. That means that my AR pot is drying up a little bit at a time. Again, thanks for your input. I know where you guys are coming from. |
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I appreciate all of the offers. HKILLER is hooking me up with a few goodies he and I have talked about. In regard to the comments a few of you have made, I am in no way insulted. I will say this, I like my RBRs built as close to the real thing as I can within my budget. I am not a purist like some of you. I do not build museum pieces. I build them to appease me. My opinion is the only one that matters. Like I said earlier, I have a lot of projects going on and all of this without a job right now. I am trying to build five ARs right now. Builds are going very slowly right now because of the wait on NDS receivers and money. On top of all of this, I am going to have to wait for months to get my Form 1 back for my 607 build. I can't even start that until I get the lower from NDS. My 1911 sales have slowed down to a standstill. That means that my AR pot is drying up a little bit at a time. Again, thanks for your input. I know where you guys are coming from. I wish you the best of luck in finding a job. At least you are prior military an that will help. I have 16 years in the Army come October. I'm a small arms repairer. I think that's a 2111 in the Marines. We had Marine instructors in school. My offer still stands whenever you get ready. |
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... And before someone jumps in and talks about late 602s with the round area above the charging handle,,the old timers tell me those are transitional 604s. ... Quoted:
... And before someone jumps in and talks about late 602s with the round area above the charging handle,,the old timers tell me those are transitional 604s. ... This interests me, and I'd love to see some evidence to support the idea. Have we ever seen an early M16-marked rifle with the engraved arrow upper--or an original Model 02 with the round-tang upper? I realize anything could have been replaced with anything over the years, so older photos or documented original rifles might be the best evidence we can find. And I realize that it's a longshot hoping to find solid proof, but we always strive here for historical authenticity and accurate documentation. I have a round-tang, engraved arrow upper and I've always considered it a late 602, but if we can document otherwise, I'd certainly appreciate the correction. |
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While I appreciate all the effort that's gone into the rifle, and understand that the desire is to build a 602, until the rifle has the signature piece of the 602 (an engraved directional arrow upper with early profile) I still consider it a 604. A very NICE 604, but a 604. You can call it a 601 if you like, but that doesn't make it one.
Please understand, I am not trying to be insulting, but I have to side with m1sniper on this. I think it's wonderful all the help you are getting from the forum, but that doesn't really surprise me much. I do understand that you are going for a 602 build, but the upper receiver detail is the primary difference between a 604 and a 602. A 1966 Chevelle may have shared engine and drive train components with a '66 vette, but that doesn't make it one...see what I mean?
I think m1sniper's motive here is he doesn't want to see newer members look at your rifle and consider it a 602. Each model has definitive features - to me, the XM16E1 would have had three-prong, partial fence lower and chrome, serrated BCG for example. These are things which set it apart from an M16A1 build. Yes, there were full-fence Xm16E1's, and later , transitional ones used parked BCGs and possibly (probably) birdcages, but what fun is that? Why build an M16A1 with nothing but Xm16E1 markings? You see where I'm going with this. Very nice 604 BTW, and I hope you find or modify the upper and find an Edgewater to make your 602 dream come true.
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If you do decide to swap out the upper receiver, you might start with a NDS-604 "Retro" upper receiver because it has very "square" forge forging lines already. (Look at the tacked retro upper guide if you don't know what that means) That receiver will need some modifications to make it look more like a 602 upper receiver, member braceman may be able to engrave the "R ->" but don't quote me on that. You will also want to re-profile the lower edge under the rear part of the port like your SP1 upper receiver already is. (Doesn't it suck that 1/2 the features you want are on one upper receiver, and the other 1/2 you want are on another!!!) I like the mix of worn / not so worn parts, can you tell us something about where everything came from / if you scuffed things up?
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Since your inspiration was the 602,and you have the NDS slabside lower,and you are working towards a 602 with the help of HKiller and others,,hows this sound,"field level re-furbished 602 mixmaster"????As in the original 602 upper was destroyed in battle,the lower was salvaged and a later upper assembly was installed??? And they re-used the chrome BCG
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Since your inspiration was the 602,and you have the NDS slabside lower,and you are working towards a 602 with the help of HKiller and others,,hows this sound,"field level re-furbished 602 mixmaster"????As in the original 602 upper was destroyed in battle,the lower was salvaged and a later upper assembly was installed??? And they re-used the chrome BCGThat is a creative idea. 
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Since your inspiration was the 602,and you have the NDS slabside lower,and you are working towards a 602 with the help of HKiller and others,,hows this sound,"field level re-furbished 602 mixmaster"????As in the original 602 upper was destroyed in battle,the lower was salvaged and a later upper assembly was installed??? And they re-used the chrome BCGThis is something that the Air Force would do. |
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