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Posted: 10/7/2011 6:26:35 AM EDT
| In Vietnam, did the FAC draw his weapon from AF stocks or was he issued a weapon from the Army unit he was assigned to? |
| I believe the ground FAC arrangement was not as well integrated then as it is today, with USAF Tactical Air Control Parties being attached to US Army units pretty far up the food chain and US Army units in the field being largely responsible for communicating with the aerial FAC. Army pathfinder units would have shared a certain amount of the duties with TACPs during operations requiring airdrops. The USAF units would have drawn weapons from their own supply chain. |
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Are we talking about the weapons that FAC pilots and observers would carry in the air as survival weapons? There's a page-turner called The Ravens, which is about the "Other Theatre" experience from a FAC perspective. Highly recommended...
In the "Other Theatre", they had XM177's, Swedish-K's, 602's, SKS's, Type 56's...basically whatever was in the region. I'll ask one of the FAC vets I know from the "Steve Canyon" program. |
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One of my friends was an A F. combat controller in SE Asia in early 70s and had a GAU. My pard was dropped in by parachute, and called in strikes in places we weren't (officially). He was not the FAC in a plane. He was a CCT (Combat Control Team) "first there". |
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I may have the wrong term. Not the guys coordinating from the air, but the ones assigned to a ground unit with radios. Quoted:
I believe the ground FAC arrangement was not as well integrated then as it is today, with USAF Tactical Air Control Parties being attached to US Army units pretty far up the food chain and US Army units in the field being largely responsible for communicating with the aerial FAC. Army pathfinder units would have shared a certain amount of the duties with TACPs during operations requiring airdrops. The USAF units would have drawn weapons from their own supply chain. I was also wrong in calling them TACPs. That's the current name. As imarangemaster noted, these units were called Combat Control Teams (CCTs) during this time frame. |
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http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/halpark/e25.jpg http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj149/halpark/e2_00012.jpg Not quite a FAC but maybe interesting An Air Force buddy gave me a set of those cammies way back when. I gave them away when they got too small on me. I wish I still had them for my retro collection. :-( |
| I could be way out of line here, but I would assume a FO would draw his weapon from his direct command, not from AF. I just don't see the big green machine saying 'Hey, we don't have a carbine for this guy do you?' I'd be surprised if the standard for FO's was any different than SF personnel. (I say that because in early years, LRRPs for example, used full-length A1's.) I think an XM177 for a guy on the ground would be appropriate, E1 or E2 given the correct year, A1 if early on. Just my .02 and based on no good info. For all I know, they could have been armed with Red Ryder BB guns... |
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Radios, ComSec Equipment and Weapons would be unit TO&E, ie Air Force parent squadron. I imagine as the teams were tasked out, all that gear would be secured in the attached unit's arms room, drawn as needed, weapon retained on person, depending on base or camp assignment. Forward assist not being an Air Force specification, CC would be humpin 602s, 610s (GAU-5/A) and 649s (GAU-5/A/A) alongside the Army's 603s and XM177s/XM177E2s. |
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Welcome to the Wilderness of Acronyms, where snarling packs of capital letters stalk the darkness.
TAC = Tactical Air Controller ETAC == Enlisted Tactical Air Controller (post-Vietnam, first heard of them in 1990s) TACP = Tactical Air Control Party. May be officer TAC or an enlisted ETAC (second much more common on the ground). Some USAF/ANG TACP units have had special training and are certified to support special operations forces. A small unit has a TACP of one guy who walks or rides with the command element. A large unit has a team, usually with their own vehicle(s). CCT = Combat Control Teams –– special units that can control weapons drops, air drops, and airfield operations, and conduct airfield surveys and establish hasty airfields. Descended from the Kennedy-era Air Commandos.Wear a gaudy red beret with a badge that would do a Bolivian Admiral justice (in the rear, not the field, obviously). JTAC = Joint Terminal Attack Controller. SOF members trained at Eglin AFB to guide dropping of ordnance. USAF supports this program with extreme reluctance and ill humor. However, USAF does not provide enough, cannot provide enough, terminal weapons controllers. essential doctrinal difference between CCT and TACP is that the TACP just drops lethal stuff. And while they may support Special Operations, they are not "owned" by special operations commands. On the ground, CCT gives priority of effort to Tier 1 / JSOC units. All these distinctions postdated the VN war. In Vietnam, the controller on the ground was called a FAC, and was a commissioned, rated aviator, usually a tactical (fighter or fighter-bomber) pilot. If you got a B-52 or transport pilot, the backstory probably involved a colonel's wife and too much alcohol. The Marines still depend on commissioned FACs as JTACs. Other USAF guys who might be on the ground with grunt or SOF units include combat weathermen (some of whom are special ops qualified) and Pararescue Jumpers (PJs) which are a SOF asset. They will sometimes be on raids, etc, as medics as they do the same excellent trauma training as SF, Ranger, Delta and SEAL medics. (SEALs have additional dive medical training, SF gets infectious diseases and epidemiology). Again, the joint medical training happened after Vietnam, in the 1990s IIRC. Before that everybody trained his own and the Rangers barely had medics. These guys are all armed by the USAF, and always were, and show up to their supported Army unit (occasionally a MArine or Navy unit) with their weapons and gear. Any of them might scrounge some other weapon but they came from Big Blue and went back to Big Blue with an M16 or GAU from Big Blue. They are armed with defensive intent: if your guy is firing a rifle when he should be dropping JDAMs there is something wrong with the picture. It's a dangerous business. Both CCTs and ETACs have bombed themselves or their own units... entirely apart from the enemy's constant efforts to kill them. Last –– they tend to be really good guys and bond intensively with their supported Army bro's. |
| My buddy was boots on the ground in Cambodia and Laos in early to mid 70s. Generally where there were no other assets to eyeball bad guys and call in strikes. He did say they worked with SF at times. Also, he did know Charlie Beckwith. I know this because I was light duty and using his desk at the station taking phone reports, when Beckwith called for him and left a message. When I asked who was calling, and he told me, I asked if he was THE Charlie Beckwith. He answered in the affirmative. I was impressed and realized then that their was more to my friend than meets the eye, or that he admitted. After he ETS, he became an Air Traffic Controller for the FFA, but was fired with the rest of them when Regan broke their strike. After that, he got into law Enforcement, where I met him. |
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Great info HOGNOSE!
Slight corrections. ETAC changed to JTAC around 2002. JTAC is the main job for TACP members. It is an additional qualification that some CCT, SOF, SEAL attain. Very few SOF attain it. TACP also teach Army counterparts how to control Air, to make them better at ECAS (emergency close air support). |
| I sent my uncle an e-mail but have yet to hear from him. That said, the more I think about it, I think he once told me he carried an M2 carbine - he inherited or bought it off a pilot who was rotating home when he arrived, and when he left, he gave/sold it to his replacement, something like that. I'm not positive though, I might be mixing this up with something I read once. |
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Quoted:
I sent my uncle an e-mail but have yet to hear from him. That said, the more I think about it, I think he once told me he carried an M2 carbine - he inherited or bought it off a pilot who was rotating home when he arrived, and when he left, he gave/sold it to his replacement, something like that. I'm not positive though, I might be mixing this up with something I read once. That sounds about right. My best friend was an O-3 commanding a company in a Ranger battalion in Vietnam. He inherited the XM177E2 of the Captain he replaced, and passed it on to the Captain that replaced him. This is the same guy that fired the 606 Heavy Barreled AR with a bipod at Ft. Benning when he was there. |
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http://www.amazon.com/No-Room-Error-Operations-Afghanistan/dp/0345453336 This covers later Air Force operations but is an interesting book about their special tactics units.
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In Vietnam, did the FAC draw his weapon from AF stocks or was he issued a weapon from the Army unit he was assigned to? Can't speak for Vietnam but while stationed at Ft Wainwright, the TACP's weapons were stored and maintained at the 4th BN 9th INF HHC armory (mutual support agreement). At Ft Bragg, the weapons were stored and maintained at CATMS on Pope. That was in the 80's. eta: all weapons were "owned" by the USAF. |
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Quoted:
Welcome to the Wilderness of Acronyms, where snarling packs of capital letters stalk the darkness. TAC = Tactical Air Controller ETAC == Enlisted Tactical Air Controller (post-Vietnam, first heard of them in 1990s) TACP = Tactical Air Control Party. May be officer TAC or an enlisted ETAC (second much more common on the ground). Some USAF/ANG TACP units have had special training and are certified to support special operations forces. A small unit has a TACP of one guy who walks or rides with the command element. A large unit has a team, usually with their own vehicle(s). CCT = Combat Control Teams –– special units that can control weapons drops, air drops, and airfield operations, and conduct airfield surveys and establish hasty airfields. Descended from the Kennedy-era Air Commandos.Wear a gaudy red beret with a badge that would do a Bolivian Admiral justice (in the rear, not the field, obviously). JTAC = Joint Terminal Attack Controller. SOF members trained at Eglin AFB to guide dropping of ordnance. USAF supports this program with extreme reluctance and ill humor. However, USAF does not provide enough, cannot provide enough, terminal weapons controllers. essential doctrinal difference between CCT and TACP is that the TACP just drops lethal stuff. And while they may support Special Operations, they are not "owned" by special operations commands. On the ground, CCT gives priority of effort to Tier 1 / JSOC units. All these distinctions postdated the VN war. In Vietnam, the controller on the ground was called a FAC, and was a commissioned, rated aviator, usually a tactical (fighter or fighter-bomber) pilot. If you got a B-52 or transport pilot, the backstory probably involved a colonel's wife and too much alcohol. The Marines still depend on commissioned FACs as JTACs. Other USAF guys who might be on the ground with grunt or SOF units include combat weathermen (some of whom are special ops qualified) and Pararescue Jumpers (PJs) which are a SOF asset. They will sometimes be on raids, etc, as medics as they do the same excellent trauma training as SF, Ranger, Delta and SEAL medics. (SEALs have additional dive medical training, SF gets infectious diseases and epidemiology). Again, the joint medical training happened after Vietnam, in the 1990s IIRC. Before that everybody trained his own and the Rangers barely had medics. These guys are all armed by the USAF, and always were, and show up to their supported Army unit (occasionally a MArine or Navy unit) with their weapons and gear. Any of them might scrounge some other weapon but they came from Big Blue and went back to Big Blue with an M16 or GAU from Big Blue. They are armed with defensive intent: if your guy is firing a rifle when he should be dropping JDAMs there is something wrong with the picture. It's a dangerous business. Both CCTs and ETACs have bombed themselves or their own units... entirely apart from the enemy's constant efforts to kill them. Last –– they tend to be really good guys and bond intensively with their supported Army bro's. Just want to add that the CCT distinction from the others providing CAS is that they can actually take ownership of the airspace from AWACS and stack aircraft, they are FAA cert'd controllers.. Also PJ's come in two flavor's one is SOF and the other is ACC. |
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