AR Sponsor
Posted: 4/14/2009 9:49:51 PM EDT
|
I'm thinking of putting together a Vietnam, pre-1965, US advisor uniform to complement my almost-finished retro AR. I really like the photos of the US advisors wearing "frogskin" (aka "duck hunter") camouflage, as seen on RetroBlackRifle.com.
WWII Impressions offers the following "Bay of Pigs" uniform. Did US advisors in Vietnam wear anything like this, or is the layout of the pockets all wrong? 
Photos from RetroBlackRifle: 
|
| apparently vietnamgear.com is not working right now but the info you are looking for might be on that website when it comes back up.. here is a decent one in the meantime that has a few pics, none with that pattern of camo tho http://david.brubakers.us/Vietnam/index.html |
|
The stuff worn by advisors early on was all 'private purchase' type stuff, although the army did make some large lot contracts through Okinawa. As such really anything goes but BY FAR the most common were two-pocket tops and four pocket trousers, basically camo versions of the then current fatigues or similar to the world war two Army HBT's. I have a set of Mitchell Patern Fatigues that are a stich by stich copy of the 1947 pattern fatigues but made out of a camo shelter half and with vietnamese made plastic buttons (I know it is real because I got it from the vet). Most of the duck-hunter pattern stuff was like this or procured from comanies, such as KAMO, that were big in the sporting goods market at the time. For a good read and reference try to find Shelby Stanton's now out of print book on Uniforms and Equipment of the Vietnam War.
The best places to find duck hunters is eBay, and they can usually be had for a lot less than the WWII Impressions uniforms... check the militaria and Vintage clothing sections. FWIW, I have double the money and time into military uniforms and equipment than I do in guns, and I have a lot in guns... -RainierHooker, resident uniform geek ETA: Picts of the Michell madness... 
|
| That mitchell pattern uniform is very cool!! There is a seller on ebay now selling different "baseball" type hats in mitchell pattern,and some boonies.If I find the auction I'll post the link later.http://cgi.ebay.com/VIETNAM-7th-AIRBORNE-DIV-CAP-100-ORIGINAL_W0QQitemZ230336336113QQihZ013QQcategoryZ36062QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
|
Quoted:
That mitchell pattern uniform is very cool!! There is a seller on ebay now selling different "baseball" type hats in mitchell pattern,and some boonies.If I find the auction I'll post the link later.http://cgi.ebay.com/VIETNAM-7th-AIRBORNE-DIV-CAP-100-ORIGINAL_W0QQitemZ230336336113QQihZ013QQcategoryZ36062QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I'm pretty sure thats an ARVN ERDL knockoff pattern. I didn't see any Mitchell ? |
| It may have closed already,I saw it sometime last week.It definatly was mitchell..Yea,I just went back,it definatly closed,,he also had a short brimmed utility cap made very similiar to the WW2 army short brim cap that's no longer up.I think that one was also mitchell.I just put that link up so guys could find the seller and then "view other items".. Hal,you may want to write him and ask if still available,I'm pretty sure they both had $25.00 start price,no reserve but also no bids at the time.. |
Yea,pretty cool... I just question one thing tho,,is it ALL genuine original,period made stuff?? I liked the short brimmed utility as I have 3 of the WW2 ones I use for our WW2 displays at FD Roosevelts...Looked nice and I like the short brimmed "baseball" type caps.
|
|
My take on it is this:
It's rare for a seller to have one of each perfect condition items like these and even more rare for them to be regular sizes like Large-Xlarge etc. Most period items like those sold today are small or at best medium. I'm not saying they're fakes, but I'm suspicious. Another great place that I have had luck with is a site called Vintage Trends. They always have some original "KAMO" duck and frog suits, etc. Hal |
| + 1 for what you say!!! On the other hand,it is possible he's a collector who is liquidating his collection,kinda like what I'm doing with WW2 stuff.I have some stuff that folks have questioned,but I often have some kind of provanance to back up my descriptions...So it's hard to say for sure...He's just got ALOT of "special intrest" items,ya know... But even if they're fakes,look at what a common baseball hat goes for...At 15-20 I would probably buy from him,,at the 25,I'll wait till AFTER I get my carbine finished...... |
|
It is true that a large fraction of what is on eBay is reproduction or fake. If it is exotic (and any Viet-Nam era camo short of ERDL is exotic), in pristine condition and with a low price it is time to get into the reference books. Look at the seller's other items and if even one repro or fake is in there you have to be suspicious of the lot of it. Also take into note that camo items were meant to be worn in the field and most of them will be devoid of any insignia (oddly enough the mitchel pattern fatigues shown above had name tapes and shoulder insignia in the pockets, it is as if Sgt O'Neil was going to badge it up, but cooler heads prevaled). If you see American camo that has insigia on it, especially from 'elite' units, again time to get into the reference books. As with Retro AR collecting, there is no substitute for experience and a good amout of reference materials.
YMMV, -RainierHooker ETA: grammar |
|
Quoted:
I wonder if any of the "duck hunter" camo' in the pics' was the one piece "overalls" that was also made in WWII? Hmmm....I have only seen that stuff in pics' though and not for sale.... Somewhere I saw a really early photo of Navy SEALs wearing the one-piece coveralls. I own a reproduction of these made by WWII Impressions. Here's a photo of me doing an Alamo Scout impression (New Guinea, 1944): 
EDIT: Here's the SEAL photo I was thinking of: 
As for the 2-piece uniforms, I found an interesting link here: http://www.baystatemilitaria.com/vietnam/vietnamuniforms.htm Check out the first item; looks very similar to the "Bay of Pigs" uniform offered by WWII Impressions: 
|
|
There's a pretty good thread about Vietnam era uniforms over at www.militaryphotos.net
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125381&highlight=Vietnam |
|
It is true that a large fraction of what is on eBay is reproduction or fake. If it is exotic (and any Viet-Nam era camo short of ERDL is exotic), in pristine condition and with a low price it is time to get into the reference books. Look at the seller's other items and if even one repro or fake is in there you have to be suspicious of the lot of it. Also take into note that camo items were meant to be worn in the field and most of them will be devoid of any insignia (oddly enough the mitchel pattern fatigues shown above had name tapes and shoulder insignia in the pockets, it is as if Sgt O'Neil was going to badge it up, but cooler heads prevaled). If you see American camo that has insigia on it, especially from 'elite' units, again time to get into the reference books. As with Retro AR collecting, there is no substitute for experience and a good amout of reference materials.
Hya Rainierhooker.... Yes agreed BUT the other day you said YES to a combat ,in country soldier wearing a bright "colored CIB" patch in country... It doesn't make sense to me,,yea he was wearing OD's and not cammo,but man that CIB stuck out like a sore thumb..I even thought it was a stirling badge,not a patch. |
|
There's a big difference between a line sergeant in the 1st cav wearing jungle fatigues (thats what the guy in the photo wih the 607 was) and a sneeky-peeky LRRP, SF, SOG or whatever type and his patrol-the-boonies-and-screw-with-the-injuns-in-their-own-backyard cammies or flower-powers or tigers. Remember that prior to late 1967 subdued insignia of any type was a no-go by regulation and when subdued insignia was introdued officially it took almost two years to field it which is why you see guys running around during the Tet offensive in 1968 in full colored everything. Yet you rarely see full colored insignia, or insignia of any type, on camo uniforms as a rule because most of the folks wearing them either don't want to be found or if they are they don't want to be identified. For the non-camo'ed line troops concealment of one's unit or whatnot really didn't matter as it is pretty hard to hide a 240-man Airmoble company that just flew in on 16 hueys, and you'll probably figure out one way or another of who it is (think death-cards). There is always an exception, afterall a good friend of mine that may be the subject matter in a few LRRP books wore his 101st LRRPs scroll in full color on his ERDLs (which he still has) when on fire-bases, but never in the boonies.
-RainierHooker |
|
Quoted:
There's a pretty good thread about Vietnam era uniforms over at www.militaryphotos.net http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125381&highlight=Vietnam Awesome link, thanks for posting. Here are some more early Vietnam "frogskin" pics (from the above link): 
Very large images: http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1135/usspecialforcescaptvernus7.jpg http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/4756/junglecamouflageuniformbo7.jpg http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8837/patrolofusspecialforcesis3.jpg |
Here's a very good and detailed photo of duck hunters in use very early on. It was from, of all places, the January 1965 issue of National Geographic:
Notice a few things: It is a two-chest-pocket shirt cut roughly in the pattern of the 1947 Fatigue uniform except that the pockets have an outside gusseted bellows, in other words the inner edge of the pocket is sewn flat while the bottom and outside edges have added matterial (the gusset) between the face of the pocket and the body of the shirt allowing it to bellow, so you can put bulky items in it. It is worn tucked into the matching trousers, most early photos show this meathod of wear. This is why it is important to have a two-pocket design, unlike the Bay Of Pigs uniform which was three-pocket and meant to be worn outside the trousers. The buttons appear to be the same metal buttons as seen on WWII HBTs and some fatigues through the early 1950s. These buttons seemed to be popular on civilian hunting camo garments through the early sixties, I'm sure because they were cheap surplus left over from the big war. Also note the camouflage pattern. It is completley unlike the Bay of Pigs uniform which is a copy of the 'frogskin' pattern from WWII. The spots do not overlap and are on a much more yellow base. This to me is the classic advisor pattern which is the most often seen one early in the war. -RH |
|
Awesome info, thanks rainierhooker. After browsing that thread from Military Photos, I did come across this image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/rhurst1945/nam_converse.jpg I think this is the same pattern of shirt as the "Bay of Pigs" shirt; note the low-set pockets (partially obstructed by his belt). Also note the Converse All-Stars and M1A1 Carbine. |
AR Sponsor