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Posted: 6/19/2006 1:35:50 PM EDT
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Hello! I was doing a little research with 733 model and got completely stuck.The problem is that some sources say it shold be with A2 lower/A1 upper reciver and some A2 lower/A2 upper(late versions). Some pictures like the one I will provide in the end shows it with A1/A1 parts. Diggin this forum for a couple of days I learned that almost any part could be changed while in service(thanks to the design of the rifle). Even in great topic regarding history of the carabines(4 hours of reading or so  ) the picture of the 733 has A2 style flash hider to my eye while reference on the same picture says it's A1 and this rifle has bayonet lug while it hasn't. Normally I'm just trying to understand which configuration comes from the factory. The closest guess for me that it started production in A1upper/A2lower an continued to the A2/A2.But what is this picture about then? It even has a bayonet lug! Please if anyone could stop me guessing I'd be very happy. Thanks. |
| The Colt Model 733 (RO733 if you want to nitpick) came from the factory in two configs from what I've seen, with A1 uppers (no case deflector) and A2 lowers, and with A2 uppers and A2 lowers. I don't find it too hard to believe they came with A1/A1 features from what I know of Colt, but these could also be XM177E2s with either birdcage or A2 FHs. I've seen that too. I'm not sure if it came from the factory with A2 uppers and A1 lowers, I would suspect not. Bayonet lugs are completely dependant on what FSB colt decided to use, and there are numerous instances of carbines having rifle FSBs with bayo lug with the concensus being that Colt had these FSBs handy and used them rather than either chop the lug or fabricate ones without it. I've definitly seen pictures of from factory 733s with A1 upper features and bayo lugs, and Ekie had confirmed a growing suspicion of mine that they were transitional, knowing what little I do about the transitional period from A1 to A2 features at Colt. |
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Deja vu? Oh yeah that was the 723 Topic! The general rule for me on the Colt 700 Series is that anyone’s guess is probably pretty good! I tried to get some definitive info on the 733 for the Carbine Guide, but I ran into the same thing that I did with many of the other Colt 700 Series which was a lot of variations in what I found and saw. These Models came along during the transition from A1 to A2 so there was a mix of components and the Models changed during the production cycle. I think Thatguy96 covered most it, but here is the run down as I could find it: Black Rifle I – Stevens & Ezell Page 354 – Colt Advertisement  Shows - Gen 2 Aluminum Stock, A1 Lower with A2 Grip, A1 Upper with Tear Drop Forward Assist (NO Brass Deflector), Flat Handguard Slip Ring, 11.5” Barrel with A1 Flash Hider. NO Bayonet Lug. This would have been the “early production configuration”. Black Rifle II – C Bartocci Page 19 – Colt Advertisement from circa 1987  Shows - Gen 3 Plastic Stock, A2 Lower with A2 Grip, A1 Upper with Round Forward Assist and Brass Deflector, Tapered Handguard Slip Ring, 11.5” Barrel with A2 Flash Hider. Bayonet Lug IS shown. This would have been the “late production configuration”. Page 273 – Military & Law Enforcement Models Listed as M16A2 Commando. The Upper is A1 with Forward Assist and Brass Deflector with a 11.5” Barrel that had an A1 profile (.625”) and a 1/7 twist rate. The front site is listed as A2. The Fire Control Group was 3-Way Auto. A1 Flash Hider. NO Bayonet Lug. It is not clear from this info if the Lower was A1 or A2. This is a prime example where the configuration does not agree even within the same reference source. Machine Gun Dealers Bible 4th Ed – Dan Shea Page 16-76  Shows - Gen 3 Plastic Stock, A2 Lower with A2 Grip, A1 Upper with Round Forward Assist (NO Brass Deflector), Tapered Handguard Slip Ring, 11.5” Barrel, shown with A1 Flash Hider (description says A2). Bayonet Lug IS shown. This would have been the “mid production configuration”. The M16 – Jean Huon Page 58  Shows - Gen 2 Aluminum Stock, A1 Lower with A2 Grip, A1 Upper with Tear Drop Forward Assist (NO Brass Deflector), Flat Handguard Slip Ring, 11.5” Barrel with A1 Flash Hider. NO Bayonet Lug. This would have been the “early production configuration”. Standard Catalog Of Military Firearms – N Schwing  (733 is the one pictured at the bottom) Shows - Gen 3 Plastic Stock, A2 Lower with A2 Grip, A1 Upper with Round Forward Assist (NO Brass Deflector), 11.5” Barrel, shown with A2 Flash Hider. Bayonet Lug IS shown. This would have been the “mid production configuration”. There are no less than 4 different configurations pictured above, which just goes to show, about anything goes! Good Luck, “Capt Richardson” PS: If it was not for the work of Alley, Bartocci, Ezell, Schwing, Shea, Stevens, then we would all be TSOL. Hopefully everyone remembers and supports the efforts of these researchers and authors. |
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I'm having fun adding all these transitional features to my huge table. Its interesting to see the patterns. I currently have five configurations in my table, and I realize I have the barrel profile listed as "A2" for all of them, but I don't think that's right. Wasn't the 733 series A1 profile? RO733: Colt M16A2 Commando, 11.5" A2 Profile (A1 profile?), .223 Remington/5.56x45mm NATO, 1-7", Short Ribbed handgaurds, Second Gen Retractable stock, A2 pistol grip, A1 lower, A1 upper, A1 rear sights, Birdcage FH, Teardrop forward assist, no case defelector, no bayo lug, S-1-F. NOTES: Early Production; may have also featured a bayo lug RO733: Colt M16A2 Commando, 11.5" A2 Profile (A1 profile?), .223 Remington/5.56x45mm NATO, 1-7", Short Ribbed handgaurds, Third Gen Retractable stock, A2 pistol grip, A2 lower, A1 upper, A1 rear sights, A2 FH, Teardrop forward assist, no case defelector, bayo lug, S-1-F. NOTES: Transitional; bayo-lug unusable; may have also featured a Birdcage FH RO733: Colt M16A2 Commando, 11.5" A2 Profile (A1 profile?), .223 Remington/5.56x45mm NATO, 1-7", Short Ribbed handgaurds, Third Gen Retractable stock, A2 pistol grip, A2 lower, A1 upper, A1 rear sights, Birdcage FH, Round forward assist, no case defelector, bayo lug, S-1-F. NOTES: Transitional; bayo-lug unusable RO733: Colt M16A2 Commando, 11.5" A2 Profile (A1 profile?), .223 Remington/5.56x45mm NATO, 1-7", Short Ribbed handgaurds, Third Gen Retractable stock, A2 pistol grip, A2 lower, A1 upper, A1 rear sights, A2 FH, Round forward assist, case defelector, no bayo lug, S-1-F. NOTES: Transitional; may have also featured a bayo-lug RO733: Colt M16A2 Commando, 11.5" A2 Profile (A1 profile?), .223 Remington/5.56x45mm NATO, 1-7", Short Ribbed handgaurds, Third Gen Retractable stock, A2 pistol grip, A2 lower, A2 upper, A1 rear sights, A2 FH, Round forward assist, case defelector, no bayo lug, S-1-F. NOTES: Late production I also realize tha this doesn't even count the current production. RO733: Colt M4 Commando, 11.5" A2 Profile (A1 profile?), .223 Remington/5.56x45mm NATO, 1-7", Short Ribbed handgaurds, Fourth Gen Retractable stock, A2 pistol grip, A2 lower, A2 upper, A2 rear sights, A2 FH, Round forward assist, case defelector, no bayo lug, S-1-F. NOTES: Current Production |
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Thank you very much guys! That's more than I expected and almost the same I suspected! In my first post the image doesn't show up for some reason so I'll give a direct link to it: www.nazarian.no/images/wep/395_commando.jpg The image quality is poor but it seems to me that it has lower A1 and upper A1 with brass deflector and bayonet lug which makes it interesting. I really think that I should stop guessing because there is no standart at all(it's much better to make a table of variants which were seen with the eyes knowing first that this variant is existing and thinking next that all other are possible with 733 h"M16A2"(sounds nonesence but still)? Also what I got from the other topic that the inscriptions on the reciver could be "M16A2" or "M16A2 property of US gov. etc." and it depends on the serial number.Could I apply this to 733? Or it was only using "M16A2" for example(or even "M16A2 COMMANDO" which I think seen only on older models). Thank you for answering. |
| There should be no property marked Model 733s. If you see a gun that looks like a 733 config of some sort and its property marked, its likely a rebuild on that lower. I would expect you would see M16A1 (early), M16A2 (mid), M16A2 Commando (mid-late) and currently M4 Commando stamps on Model 733s. |
The picture below is from Black Rifle I, page 281: What is very interesting is that it is almost identical to some of the "early" Model 733 pictures, however this one is identified as being a Model 639. I would somewhat suspect that the lines between the 2 Models were blurred in production, what made it a Model 639 versus a Model 733 may have been less about what components they were made up of, but more about when they were produced and what Model the paperwork that went along with them designated them as. Probably the biggest difference between the 2 Models would have been the Barrel Twist Rates. The Model 639 would have had the “earlier” 1/12 or 1/10 twist rate, where the Model 733 would have had the “later” 1/7 twist rate. But who is to say one could not have had the other. According to everything that I can find, the Model 733 should have had the “A1 Barrel Profile” which was .625” at the FSB. However, it would not surprise me if “late” production models were also made with the “A2 Barrel Profile” which was .750 at the FSB. Thayguy covered the markings from the standpoint that none of them should have been “Property of US Govt” marked. The markings should have been as they are shown in the Dan Shea photo above. Thanks, “Capt Richardson” |
| Also note that the 639 was intended as an export version of the 629. The birdcage FH only appears on the mid-late production guns after the Carter Administration put serious restrictions on exported sound suppressor technology abroad and that BATF had classified the 4.5" moderator as a sound suppressor. |
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Well thank you,it clears most of it. Looks like Colt wanted to summarize all it's efforts on fixed handle short commando in 733(because flat top versions 933 was near) and the main idea was in upgrading to newer barrel profile probably .Looking on the dates when production of 733 started I almost want to belive that it's ment to be like it's now with A2upper/A2lower from the begining but may be the lack of new recivers or may be huge stock of old ones made this mess.Still it's not really a problem to use teardrop forward assist instead of a round one,and it's not an issue what type your lower reciver is, even the older sights isn't a huge problem because it's a CQB weapon and one wouldn't really try to snipe something from 500 meters and that could explain that most of them were fitted with A2lower and A1upper.The only thing I didn't get about markings,sorry.I'm interested in older type A1/A1.It's a bit stupid to call it M16A2 but it might be even more stupid to call it M16A1 since it's easier to call it model 639 in this setup then.Do you think that M16A2 could be really inscripted on the lower A1?I just think i've seen it somewere on the pics. Thanks PS Thanks for all your efforts to help and answers.I definitly learned something new here.Great forum.Great members.Great answers and great pictures. |
Thanks for pointing that out, I probably should have mentioned that, here is the "Early Version" of the 639 with the 4.5" Moderator  Photo: Dan Shea I never paid any attention to any A1 Lowers being marked "M16A2", now that you pointed that out I will have to start watching for it. I guess in some cases Colt marked the Lower according to the "specs of the model" it was going on, not based on whether it was actually an "A1" or "A2" spec Lower. No question that there seems to be absolutley no rime or reason to some of the stuff that Colt did. Thanks Joe, Good Luck Vic_Bull, "Capt Richardson" |
Pretty straight forward really; here's an M733 with the A1 configuration:    Here's the variant with the brass deflector.  Here's the M933 Variant with removeable A3 Carry handle. ASI also has a very rare (Post 86 Sample, sadly) M938 Enhanced Commando Carbine with a 4 position selector (Yep, as in SAFE, SEMI, BURST & AUTO). Photos Courtesy of Armament Services International Inc. |
| I would venture to say its not so simple. The first one is an A1/A2 config, while the second is the later A1/A2 (possibly A2/A2) with case deflector. They both look like they have A2 FHs as well, and the first one sans case deflector has a round forward assist which is also an A2 feature. Both have 3rd gen stocks, not the 4th gen stocks found on current Colt production guns (and what should be featured on both of the members of the Enhanced Series - the 738 and 938). The first one looks like a mid-production gun while the second one looks like a late (not current) produciton gun. That 933 is also an early 933 because it lacks the 4th gen stock. |
Guess that kind of depends on how you want to look at it ... If it has an 11.5" Barrel with an A1 or A2 Flashhider, has an Upper with a fixed A1 or A2 Carry Handle, and has a Gen 2 or Gen 3 Collapsing Stock, then you can pretty much call it a Model 733! That may not be 100% "Technically Accurate" but it is probably pretty close. Obviously you could also find some Model 639's or 649's that would also match those specs, but for the most part anything made with a 11.5" Barrel and Fixed Carry Handle from the 1980's on would be a Model 733. I think that Colt Carbine Model may qualify as the Model that was produced with the most possible component variations. The other Model that would have come close would have been the Model 723. Thanks for everyone's input on this, it is always a great learning experience. "Capt Richardson" PS: for the Technical Record, Colt did also make a Model 734 and 735, which were basically the Model 733 Specs with a different Fire Control Group. |
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The members of this "family" are: RO733 RO733A (sub-variant with S-1-3 group, likely that the 735 is a standardization of this subvariant to a more consistant form) RO734 RO734A (as with the 733A) RO735 (with S-1-3 group and A2 features) RO738 (Enhanced series with S-1-3-F group) RO933 (Flat top 733) RO935 (Flat top 735) RO938 (Flat top 738) The 734 vexes me because it seems to be an exact copy of the 733, to no real point. I just find it odd that Colt would develop four weapons in two identical pairs. |
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In general the main difference between the 600 series and the 700 series is a change of twist from 1/12 to 1/7. While the M16A2 was made to a strict TDP other Colt products like the 733 and the SPII series were not, in that they were "commercial/export" weapons. So Colt slowly used up all their old A1 parts on the commercial/export series. Far as I can tell Colt ran out or simply quit using 600 series A1 parts in roughly this order: A1 furniture A1 port door tear drop forward assist bird cage flash hider slip ring CH A1 uppers Colt 733 were roll marked M16A2, lacked US Property markings, and are in the 8 million serial number range. Another interesting thing about the 733 series is that they used the old style handguard cap long after it was dropped on the 723 and 727 series.
The first one has a bird cage flash suppressor, you can tell because it uses a lock washer rather then a peel washer. First one is mid 1980's, middle one is late eighties or early 90's. And like you said, bottom is not a 733. |
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