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Posted: 8/1/2016 5:16:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Has the lower ever been assembled into a rifle before now?
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Posted: 8/1/2016 5:27:56 PM EDT
[#2]
First barrel on gun as a working firearm that can fire must be less than 16 inches with no stock.
Thereafter you may put 16 inch and longer barrel and add stock only with 16 and longer barrel attached. Stock must come off before 16 and longer barrel is removed. Lower still remains pistol lower as long as made working pistol first. M4 tube that can still accept stock is a bad idea. If this is still confusing the answer is Glock. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 5:31:35 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Has the lower ever been assembled into a rifle before now? |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 5:36:39 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First barrel on gun as a working firearm that can fire must be less than 16 inches with no stock. Thereafter you may put 16 inch and longer barrel and add stock only with 16 and longer barrel attached. Stock must come off before 16 and longer barrel is removed. Lower still remains pistol lower as long as made working pistol first. M4 tube that can still accept stock is a bad idea. If this is still confusing the answer is Glock. So, I can build the new, never been used stripped lower into a pistol lower....then take my carbine upper, remove the 16" barrel, install a 11.5" barrel, install upper with the now 11.5" barrel onto the pistol lower to have a legal pistol? Yes...or no? ETA: I've got a Springfield XDm .45 w/white light next to the bed. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 6:26:57 PM EDT
[#5]
A lower can go from pistol to rifle but not from rifle to pistol. Once its a rifle it can never be a pistol.
You can use your a2 upper with another barrel for it if you choose but given the price of stripped uppers I wouldnt think its worth the trouble |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 6:47:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, I can build the new, never been used stripped lower into a pistol lower....then take my carbine upper, remove the 16" barrel, install a 11.5" barrel, install upper with the now 11.5" barrel onto the pistol lower to have a legal pistol? Yes...or no? ETA: I've got a Springfield XDm .45 w/white light next to the bed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
First barrel on gun as a working firearm that can fire must be less than 16 inches with no stock. Thereafter you may put 16 inch and longer barrel and add stock only with 16 and longer barrel attached. Stock must come off before 16 and longer barrel is removed. Lower still remains pistol lower as long as made working pistol first. M4 tube that can still accept stock is a bad idea. If this is still confusing the answer is Glock. Yes...or no? ETA: I've got a Springfield XDm .45 w/white light next to the bed. Yes that is correct |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 6:51:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lower can go from pistol to rifle but not from rifle to pistol. Once its a rifle it can never be a pistol. You can use your a2 upper with another barrel for it if you choose but given the price of stripped uppers I wouldnt think its worth the trouble I'm keeping the A2 butt stock lower intact....just putting it in storage. I'm building the pistol lower so I can legally have a barreled upper in less than 16" configuration. The pistol lower and the 11.5" upper will always be stored together, if not connected. I will not keep the A2 lower anywhere near the pistol upper. I am still contemplating just buying a stripped upper and building a complete pistol upper from the ground up. But....I'm starting to get the "eye" from the little lady for the few parts that I've already purchased online. I may have to start browsing the LGS's or gun shows for any future parts so she won't know what's coming into the house  . LOL. She just don't understand the "need" for anther AR. Christ, what a shame what this BRD (in this case, BPD) is!!! |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 6:53:03 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes that is correct Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: First barrel on gun as a working firearm that can fire must be less than 16 inches with no stock. Thereafter you may put 16 inch and longer barrel and add stock only with 16 and longer barrel attached. Stock must come off before 16 and longer barrel is removed. Lower still remains pistol lower as long as made working pistol first. M4 tube that can still accept stock is a bad idea. If this is still confusing the answer is Glock. Yes...or no? ETA: I've got a Springfield XDm .45 w/white light next to the bed. Yes that is correct Thanks. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 7:34:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm keeping the A2 butt stock lower intact....just putting it in storage. I'm building the pistol lower so I can legally have a barreled upper in less than 16" configuration. The pistol lower and the 11.5" upper will always be stored together, if not connected. I will not keep the A2 lower anywhere near the pistol upper. I am still contemplating just buying a stripped upper and building a complete pistol upper from the ground up. But....I'm starting to get the "eye" from the little lady for the few parts that I've already purchased online. I may have to start browsing the LGS's or gun shows for any future parts so she won't know what's coming into the house . LOL. She just don't understand the "need" for anther AR. Christ, what a shame what this BRD (in this case, BPD) is!!!Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A lower can go from pistol to rifle but not from rifle to pistol. Once its a rifle it can never be a pistol. You can use your a2 upper with another barrel for it if you choose but given the price of stripped uppers I wouldnt think its worth the trouble I am still contemplating just buying a stripped upper and building a complete pistol upper from the ground up. But....I'm starting to get the "eye" from the little lady for the few parts that I've already purchased online. I may have to start browsing the LGS's or gun shows for any future parts so she won't know what's coming into the house . LOL. She just don't understand the "need" for anther AR. Christ, what a shame what this BRD (in this case, BPD) is!!!Just build one for her, too. Get her contaminated, with the disease, I mean. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 7:51:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Pistol>Rifle=okay
Rifle>Pistol= Not Okay It keeps people in the oppressed states from buying a rifle and shortening it up. There is no limit to barrel length on a pistol. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 8:37:23 PM EDT
[#11]
It really is as simple as stripped lower, build it up for the first time into a pistol then you can do pretty much whatever the heck you want to it afterwards and take it back down to a pistol.
Again stripped lower ----> pistol ------> rifle ------> SBR ------> pistol -------> rifle -----------> pistol -------> door stop -------> pistol. This is way over complicated. Bottom line is if the lower can not be proven to have started life in a rifle configuration turn it into a pistol and do not worry. 
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Posted: 8/1/2016 8:39:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pistol>Rifle=okay Rifle>Pistol= Not Okay It keeps people in the oppressed states from buying a rifle and shortening it up. There is no limit to barrel length on a pistol. This is what confuses me. Who in the Federal government would ever know if I turned a rifle into a pistol? I mean, when I bought all my parts to build lowers, how would any of them ever know what kind of lower I was going to build? IOW, of all the stripped lowers I have purchased, how could they possibly know what they were turned into? As far as the upper being rebarreled from 16" to 11.5".....without serial numbers, how would they be able to prove the upper was once a rifle-length upper? I and I alone knows what I used my parts to build. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 8:41:17 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is way over complicated. Bottom line is if the lower can not be proven to have started life in a rifle configuration turn it into a pistol and do not worry. Exactly. Why then are people telling me not to turn a rifle into a pistol? Unless of course they are talking about store bought complete rifles, which I have few of. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 8:49:41 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is what confuses me. Who in the Federal government would ever know if I turned a rifle into a pistol? I mean, when I bought all my parts to build lowers, how would any of them ever know what kind of lower I was going to build? IOW, of all the stripped lowers I have purchased, how could they possibly know what they were turned into? As far as the upper being rebarreled from 16" to 11.5".....without serial numbers, how would they be able to prove the upper was once a rifle-length upper? I and I alone knows what I used my parts to build. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Pistol>Rifle=okay Rifle>Pistol= Not Okay It keeps people in the oppressed states from buying a rifle and shortening it up. There is no limit to barrel length on a pistol. As far as the upper being rebarreled from 16" to 11.5".....without serial numbers, how would they be able to prove the upper was once a rifle-length upper? I and I alone knows what I used my parts to build. The Gov't wouldn't know what you did with the parts. Some states are very restrictive. We as law abiding gun guys try to follow the spirit of the law. Not that our government follows it anymore. Bottom line, you are doing it right. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 8:51:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly. Why then are people telling me not to turn a rifle into a pistol? Unless of course they are talking about store bought complete rifles, which I have few of. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is way over complicated. Bottom line is if the lower can not be proven to have started life in a rifle configuration turn it into a pistol and do not worry. Unless of course they are talking about store bought complete rifles, which I have few of. What's your Word worth to you? Lying come easy to you? 
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Posted: 8/1/2016 9:02:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, I can build the new, never been used stripped lower into a pistol lower....then take my carbine upper, remove the 16" barrel, install a 11.5" barrel, install upper with the now 11.5" barrel onto the pistol lower to have a legal pistol? Yes...or no? ETA: I've got a Springfield XDm .45 w/white light next to the bed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
First barrel on gun as a working firearm that can fire must be less than 16 inches with no stock. Thereafter you may put 16 inch and longer barrel and add stock only with 16 and longer barrel attached. Stock must come off before 16 and longer barrel is removed. Lower still remains pistol lower as long as made working pistol first. M4 tube that can still accept stock is a bad idea. If this is still confusing the answer is Glock. Yes...or no? ETA: I've got a Springfield XDm .45 w/white light next to the bed. Yes. So long as the virgin lower has never had a stock on it. You could even put the 16" upper on it and it's still a pistol. There's no arrel length restructions for pistols, only that they can't have a stock. Now, once it's first been a pistol, you can put a long upper and a stock on it and reconfigure it as a rifle. And then take the stock off it and slap that short upper back on and it's back to a pistol. You CAN'T convert a rifle into a pistol without a stamp EVER, but pistols can go back and forth so long as it's never in an SBR configuration. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 10:11:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lying come easy to you? Uhhh.....no. That's why I'm asking so many questions trying to do it legally. Duh. I'm just trying to point out something that all of you already know....that the law as it is written is absurdly easy to manipulate. So much so that the law itself concerning turning a stocked AR rifle into a pistol is redundant. I think I've got the answers I was looking for. Thanks for all the replies. Even yours sparky923. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 10:43:22 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Uhhh.....no. That's why I'm asking so many questions trying to do it legally. Duh. I'm just trying to point out something that all of you already know....that the law as it is written is absurdly easy to manipulate. So much so that the law itself concerning turning a stocked AR rifle into a pistol is redundant. I think I've got the answers I was looking for. Thanks for all the replies. Even yours sparky923. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Lying come easy to you?
I'm just trying to point out something that all of you already know....that the law as it is written is absurdly easy to manipulate. So much so that the law itself concerning turning a stocked AR rifle into a pistol is redundant. I think I've got the answers I was looking for. Thanks for all the replies. Even yours sparky923. Just remember a store bought complete rifle has at least a 4473 showing that it was transferred as a "rifle" and not as a pistol or other. This also means that the manufacturer if ever asked about the serial # also probably has a log that shows it was shipped out originally as a "rifle". So yeah that paper trail thing does come into play in this case and you wouldn't want to be the case study on how the law is applied to this situation. |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 10:46:49 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. So long as the virgin lower has never had a stock on it. ... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
First barrel on gun as a working firearm that can fire must be less than 16 inches with no stock. Thereafter you may put 16 inch and longer barrel and add stock only with 16 and longer barrel attached. Stock must come off before 16 and longer barrel is removed. Lower still remains pistol lower as long as made working pistol first. M4 tube that can still accept stock is a bad idea. If this is still confusing the answer is Glock. Yes...or no? ETA: I've got a Springfield XDm .45 w/white light next to the bed. Yes. So long as the virgin lower has never had a stock on it. ... Stock itself doesn't matter. You can buy a complete virgin lower with stock attached, still legit to make a pistol config from it, just remove stock first. 
- OS |
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Posted: 8/1/2016 10:56:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. So long as the virgin lower has never had a stock on it. You could even put the 16" upper on it and it's still a pistol. There's no arrel length restructions for pistols, only that they can't have a stock. Now, once it's first been a pistol, you can put a long upper and a stock on it and reconfigure it as a rifle. And then take the stock off it and slap that short upper back on and it's back to a pistol. You CAN'T convert a rifle into a pistol without a stamp EVER, but pistols can go back and forth so long as it's never in an SBR configuration. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
First barrel on gun as a working firearm that can fire must be less than 16 inches with no stock. Thereafter you may put 16 inch and longer barrel and add stock only with 16 and longer barrel attached. Stock must come off before 16 and longer barrel is removed. Lower still remains pistol lower as long as made working pistol first. M4 tube that can still accept stock is a bad idea. If this is still confusing the answer is Glock. Yes...or no? ETA: I've got a Springfield XDm .45 w/white light next to the bed. Yes. So long as the virgin lower has never had a stock on it. You could even put the 16" upper on it and it's still a pistol. There's no arrel length restructions for pistols, only that they can't have a stock. Now, once it's first been a pistol, you can put a long upper and a stock on it and reconfigure it as a rifle. And then take the stock off it and slap that short upper back on and it's back to a pistol. You CAN'T convert a rifle into a pistol without a stamp EVER, but pistols can go back and forth so long as it's never in an SBR configuration. The real cluster F is the question of pistol to form 1 SBR to can it go back to being a pistol is the best to argue with folks. Different parts of the ATF will give you different answers and depending on the day of the week you could be told yes it can and the next day no it can not...... by the same agent.
I don't think there has ever been anyone charged with the pistol to SBR back to pistol whether legal or not so until the day this ever happens I do not legally see why you couldn't go back to a pistol configuration. Just because you send in a form 1 and engrave some extra writing onto a "pistol" doesn't magically make it a brand new firearm by definition that is now magically starting life as a rifle with it's first breath of air. |
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Posted: 8/2/2016 12:25:46 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First barrel on gun as a working firearm that can fire must be less than 16 inches with no stock. Thereafter you may put 16 inch and longer barrel and add stock only with 16 and longer barrel attached. Stock must come off before 16 and longer barrel is removed. Lower still remains pistol lower as long as made working pistol first. M4 tube that can still accept stock is a bad idea. If this is still confusing the answer is Glock. Not exactly according to federal law there is no maxium barrel length for a pistol. So as long as a stock is not attached and no forward grip. He can use any barrel length and it would still qualify as a pistol in initial configuration. Then he can do as he pleases. Also he can use a M4 tube no issues there. |
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Posted: 8/2/2016 12:30:21 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lower can go from pistol to rifle but not from rifle to pistol. Once its a rifle it can never be a pistol. You can use your a2 upper with another barrel for it if you choose but given the price of stripped uppers I wouldnt think its worth the trouble Yes and no. A pistol can go from pistol to rifle to pistol as long as it was originally built as pistol. This is the whole Thompson center arms ruling. However a rifle can never become a pistol if it was originally configured as a rifle. |
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Posted: 8/2/2016 12:36:24 PM EDT
[#23]
OP to your question the upper is not a firearm therefore it does not matter how it was originally configured.
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Posted: 8/2/2016 1:42:25 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
I've got a spare Anderson multi-cal. stripped lower (new) in the safe. I also have a pistol tube/spring/buffer, etc. I have a rifle complete upper that is installed on an A2 rifle lower. I'm wanting to swap the 16" barrel on that upper out for an 11.5" or 12.5" carbine length barrel to put on the Anderson once I get a LPK for it to make the pistol. Am I legal to do it this way? FWIW, I'm in Texas (not that it would affect Federal laws). If doing it this way is not legal, then how must I do it? Thanks in advance for any replies. An upper is not a firearm. As long as it is not pinned to a lower you can put whatever barrel length you want on it. If you bought the stripped upper and it has never been built into a rifle with a 16" barrel on it then you are G2G to build it into a pistol, and can even change it back to a rifle if you so choose. Pistol -> Rifle -> Pistol = OK Rifle -> Pistol -> Rifle = NO |
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Posted: 8/2/2016 2:21:10 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The real cluster F is the question of pistol to form 1 SBR to can it go back to being a pistol is the best to argue with folks. Different parts of the ATF will give you different answers and depending on the day of the week you could be told yes it can and the next day no it can not...... by the same agent.
I don't think there has ever been anyone charged with the pistol to SBR back to pistol whether legal or not so until the day this ever happens I do not legally see why you couldn't go back to a pistol configuration. Just because you send in a form 1 and engrave some extra writing onto a "pistol" doesn't magically make it a brand new firearm by definition that is now magically starting life as a rifle with it's first breath of air. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
First barrel on gun as a working firearm that can fire must be less than 16 inches with no stock. Thereafter you may put 16 inch and longer barrel and add stock only with 16 and longer barrel attached. Stock must come off before 16 and longer barrel is removed. Lower still remains pistol lower as long as made working pistol first. M4 tube that can still accept stock is a bad idea. If this is still confusing the answer is Glock. Yes...or no? ETA: I've got a Springfield XDm .45 w/white light next to the bed. Yes. So long as the virgin lower has never had a stock on it. You could even put the 16" upper on it and it's still a pistol. There's no arrel length restructions for pistols, only that they can't have a stock. Now, once it's first been a pistol, you can put a long upper and a stock on it and reconfigure it as a rifle. And then take the stock off it and slap that short upper back on and it's back to a pistol. You CAN'T convert a rifle into a pistol without a stamp EVER, but pistols can go back and forth so long as it's never in an SBR configuration. The real cluster F is the question of pistol to form 1 SBR to can it go back to being a pistol is the best to argue with folks. Different parts of the ATF will give you different answers and depending on the day of the week you could be told yes it can and the next day no it can not...... by the same agent.
I don't think there has ever been anyone charged with the pistol to SBR back to pistol whether legal or not so until the day this ever happens I do not legally see why you couldn't go back to a pistol configuration. Just because you send in a form 1 and engrave some extra writing onto a "pistol" doesn't magically make it a brand new firearm by definition that is now magically starting life as a rifle with it's first breath of air. Seems to me that ATF has been pretty consistent with their stand on this -- they have always stated that retention of any of the parts that made it an SBR would keep it under NFA purview. And a short barrel is one of those parts, so how could it not still be an SBR with a short barrel not only "retained" but actually attached? They even say that if the SBR is sold in GCA configuration as rifle or receiver, the new owner cannot put a short barrel on it without a new tax stamp. The Thompson Decision by SCOTUS and ATF's belated "ruling" (acknowledgement) of it both hinged on that fact that a NFA firearm was NOT made by going GCA pistol-rifle-pistol, so the ruling cannot necessarily encompasses NFA firearms, only GCA ones. - OS |
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Posted: 8/3/2016 8:03:34 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussions of criminal activity
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