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Posted: 9/13/2011 10:15:05 AM EDT
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I still don't get it.
I want to put together an AR Pistol. I'm not sure of the barrel length yet. I'd like to use a B Co upper and lower. 1. Do I need to buy a "pistol" lower? How do I go about getting a lower to build a pistol? 2. Is there a maximum barrel length limit? Thanks |
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Quoted:
Handguns have to be registered in PA. Why wouldn't an AR Pistol. AR pistols have to be registered as a handgun in Pa. I have an FFl so I did my own. If you're going to register the lower as a pistol I assume you'll have to do it when you pick it up from your FFL. I may be wrong. |
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again, THERE IS NO REGISTRY IN PA. registration is illegal, as per state law.
but since you guys clearly don't believe me (and clearly don't bother to even look it up), do whatever you'd like. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4: Registration of firearms
Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon. |
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Do I have to register my firearms in Pennsylvania?
No, in fact in Pennsylvania it is actually illegal for any government or police agency to keep a registry of firearms per 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 (Registration of firearms). If you legally possess bring your firearms into the Pennsylvania or come into possession of the firearms legally, no further action is required. It should be noted however that all transfers of handguns in Pennsylvania are required to go through the Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS) and as such the Pennsylvania State Police keep a "Sales Database" of all handguns purchased within the Commonwealth. While almost any casual observer can see that this database clearly violates the spirit of 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 (Registration of firearms), in the Pennsylvania Supreme Court agreed with the Pennsylvania State Police that because the database is not a complete record of all handgun ownership (as people bringing handguns into the state do not have to register them), it does not. |
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Quoted: Well there you go OP. When you buy the lower it sells as other, not handgun. Therefore it shouldn't need to go through the PICS (if in fact it is only handguns) so it won't be on the pseudo legal database at all.Do I have to register my firearms in Pennsylvania? No, in fact in Pennsylvania it is actually illegal for any government or police agency to keep a registry of firearms per 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 (Registration of firearms). If you legally possess bring your firearms into the Pennsylvania or come into possession of the firearms legally, no further action is required. It should be noted however that all transfers of handguns in Pennsylvania are required to go through the Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS) and as such the Pennsylvania State Police keep a "Sales Database" of all handguns purchased within the Commonwealth. While almost any casual observer can see that this database clearly violates the spirit of 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 (Registration of firearms), in the Pennsylvania Supreme Court agreed with the Pennsylvania State Police that because the database is not a complete record of all handgun ownership (as people bringing handguns into the state do not have to register them), it does not. |
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The red section is what is applicable to this issue. The bold section, whether they call it registration or not, is just that. If you think it isn't you are sorely mistaken. I recently took temporary possession of a pistol from a person who was having some issues coping. From what occured during the incident ( I will not elaborate) I determined the pistol probably wasn't his. I contacted the Pennsylvania State Police PICS and gave them the serial number. They gave me the owner information. I contacted the owner, the person's brother, and the pistol was returned to him. This is only the most recent time I've used PICS to identify the owner of a weapon. If it isn't registration then what is it? Title 18 § 6111b1 has led to the development of a pistol/firearm registration that is quite accessible by Law Enforcement and other .gov agencies whether for good or not. Long-guns do not require the Application/Record of Sale in Pennsylvania.They only require the dealer complete the 4473 and background check.
§ 6111. Sale or transfer of firearms. (a) Time and manner of delivery.–– (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), no seller shall deliver a firearm to the purchaser or transferee thereof until 48 hours shall have elapsed from the time of the application for the purchase thereof, and, when delivered, the firearm shall be securely wrapped and shall be unloaded. (2) Thirty days after publication in the Pennsylvania Bulletin that the Instantaneous Criminal History Records Check System has been established in accordance with the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Public Law 103-159, 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq.), no seller shall deliver a firearm to the purchaser thereof until the provisions of this section have been satisfied, and, when delivered, the firearm shall be securely wrapped and shall be unloaded. (b) Duty of seller.––No licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer shall sell or deliver any firearm to another person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector, until the conditions of subsection (a) have been satisfied and until he has: (1) For purposes of a firearm as defined in section 6102 (see below) (relating to definitions), obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of the sale, one copy to be retained by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for a period of 20 years and one copy to be provided to the purchaser or transferee. The form of this application/record of sale shall be no more than one page in length and shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer. The application/record of sale shall include the name, address, birthdate, gender, race, physical description and Social Security number of the purchaser or transferee, the date of the application and the caliber, length of barrel, make, model and manufacturer's number of the firearm to be purchased or transferred. The application/record of sale shall also contain the following question: § = Section/subsection § 6102. Definitions. "Firearm." Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable. |
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yes, if it's a FIREARM, it would need to go through pics or etc...
but a receiver can be sold ftf. receiver =/= firearm. If it isn't registration then what is it? Title 18 § 6111b1 has led to the development of a pistol/firearm registration that is quite accessible by Law Enforcement and other .gov agencies whether for good or not it's an illegal attempt at registry that's under the guise of an incomplete database. the psp has constantly been over-stepping. hence, their recent 'must transfer all receivers as firearms' bullshit memo, despite state law and the batfe clearly disagreeing. and you should know the result of that one, at least... |
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Quoted: yes, if it's a FIREARM, it would need to go through pics or etc... but a receiver can be sold ftf. receiver =/= firearm. (1) For purposes of a firearm as defined in section 6102 , obtained a completed .... § 6102. Definitions. "Firearm." Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable. So am I missing something? Where does a stripped receiver fall in that definition? By your post wouldn't ALL firearms be required to go through PICS? Fudd guns and all? |
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Quoted:
yes, if it's a FIREARM, it would need to go through pics or etc... but a receiver can be sold ftf. receiver =/= firearm. If it isn't registration then what is it? Title 18 § 6111b1 has led to the development of a pistol/firearm registration that is quite accessible by Law Enforcement and other .gov agencies whether for good or not it's an illegal attempt at registry that's under the guise of an incomplete database. the psp has constantly been over-stepping. hence, their recent 'must transfer all receivers as firearms' bullshit memo, despite state law and the batfe clearly disagreeing. and you should know the result of that one, at least... And that I don't argue. I was pointing it out in fact. I have used tools that are available to me. When I looked at it recently I realized what it was. So what's next? |
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Quoted: a receiver doesn't fall under that. which is why they can legally be sold ftf with proof of residence, along with (non-short barreled) rifles/shotguns. it has no barrel... I realize that but my question is: This is the definition of firearms that are required to go through the PICS. So why is a lower also required to go through PICS when it does not meet the definition of a firearm as defined for the purpose of the statute? I'm not saying your wrong, I don't live in PA nor have I ever bought a firearm there. I'm just wondering why the statute includes a firearm that is not defined as such for that statute. If you buy a long gun from a FFL does it also go through PICS? |
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yes, if it's a FIREARM, it would need to go through pics or etc... but a receiver can be sold ftf. receiver =/= firearm. (1) For purposes of a firearm as defined in section 6102 , obtained a completed.... § 6102. Definitions. "Firearm." Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable. So am I missing something? Where does a stripped receiver fall in that definition? By your post wouldn't ALL firearms be required to go through PICS? Fudd guns and all? For a background check yes. Shotguns over 18 inch barrel and rifles over 16 inch barrels are not registered in Pa. Personal sales of long guns and sales or gifts between family members. There is also a definition for Firearms under 6105. It is for this section only. I have it boldened. § 6105. Persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms. (a) Offense defined.–– (1) A person who has been convicted of an offense enumerated in subsection (b), within or without this Commonwealth, regardless of the length of sentence or whose conduct meets the criteria in subsection (c) shall not possess, use, control, sell, transfer or manufacture or obtain a license to possess, use, control, sell, transfer or manufacture a firearm in this Commonwealth. (2) (i) A person who is prohibited from possessing, using, controlling, selling, transferring or manufacturing a firearm under paragraph (1) or subsection (b) or (c) shall have a reasonable period of time, not to exceed 60 days from the date of the imposition of the disability under this subsection, in which to sell or transfer that person's firearms to another eligible person who is not a member of the prohibited person's household. (ii) This paragraph shall not apply to any person whose disability is imposed pursuant to subsection (c)(6). The enumerated offenses are to many to list. (i) Firearm.––As used in this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapons which are designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon. When the Pa Title 18 does not cover the issue the only rule of law is the federal law. Page 2 Block 18 of the 4473 listed the receiver as Other Firearm and directs the seller to see the instructions for block 18. Question 18. Type of Firearm(s): Check all boxes that apply. "Other" refers to frames, receivers and other firearms that are not either handguns or long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms. If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun), it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However, they still are "firearms" by definition. and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearms. See Section 92 I(a)(3)(b). 18 U.S.C. Section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun or rifle to any person under the age of 21. Since a frame or receiver for a firearm, to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or rifle." it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21, Also, note that multiple sales forms are not required for frames or receivers of any firearms, or pistol grip shotguns, since they are not "pistols or revolvers" under Section 923(g)(3)(a). So where does this leave us? |
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All of that I understand. Federal gun laws I am very well versed in. What I am trying to understand is the PA Title 18 § 6111, which from what I can gather is what you are referring to as PICS. We all know that different definitions apply for different sections or sub sections of any statute. The definition you posted: (i) Firearm.––As used in this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapons which are designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon. Is only used for § 6105 as it so states. However Title 18 § 6111 states: "(1) For purposes of a firearm as defined in section 6102 (see below) (relating to definitions), obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via... § 6102. Definitions. "Firearm." Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable. So this is the definition of firearm that is used by Title 18 § 6111. So... my question stands that if I am correct that Title 18 § 6111 is the coding of PICS, and this statute outlines in a subsection 1602 the definition of the firearms subject to this statue then it would reason that if that definition, as it is, does not cover a bare receiver why is the receiver still subject to the statute? |
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Quoted:
So... my question stands that if I am correct that Title 18 § 6111 is the coding of PICS, and this statute outlines in a subsection 1602 the definition of the firearms subject to this statue then it would reason that if that definition, as it is, does not cover a bare receiver why is the receiver still subject to the statute? For that you'll have to contact the Pennsylvania State Police. They only way I can see them covering a bare receiver under the definition is to cover it under the bold clause. Other then this I don't know. I've bought lower receivers before getting an FFL and went through the hoops with the FFL. Maybe it is past practice and has become custom. It hasn't come up with me yet. I have my lowers in my bound book as "Other". If I sell a stripped lower it will be as "Lower" unless the buyer wants it registered as a pistol. It will be up to the buyer to register it as a pistol when built (In Pa.). It is confusing. I suppose if the issue comes up I will ask PICS. The state can defer to the Federal Definition in block 18 of the 4473. The fed considers the stripped lower as a firearm. § 6102. Definitions. "Firearm." Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable. US Code 18 § 921. Definitions (a) As used in this chapter— (3) The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm. |
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a receiver doesn't fall under that. which is why they can legally be sold ftf with proof of residence, along with (non-short barreled) rifles/shotguns. it has no barrel... I realize that but my question is: This is the definition of firearms that are required to go through the PICS. So why is a lower also required to go through PICS when it does not meet the definition of a firearm as defined for the purpose of the statute? I'm not saying your wrong, I don't live in PA nor have I ever bought a firearm there. I'm just wondering why the statute includes a firearm that is not defined as such for that statute. If you buy a long gun from a FFL does it also go through PICS? it DOESN'T have to go through pics. again, they can be sold ftf, simply with proof of residence/age (and no reason to suspect that the buyer is prohibited). everything (firearms, long arms, lower receivers) bought from a dealer has to go through pics, though. And that I don't argue. I was pointing it out in fact. I have used tools that are available to me. When I looked at it recently I realized what it was. So what's next? hopefully, another challenge before the pa supreme court. |
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Well its all very contradicting. On one side you have 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 which clearly forbids "any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth." Then you have Title 18 § 6111b1 which lays out the procedure PICS which in fact creates a registration of firearm ownership via sales records. The PA Supreme Court has ruled it does not violate 6111.4 because it is not a "complete" registry. But 6111.4 forbids not just "complete" registries, but any registry, which 6111b1 in fact is. Then you have Title 18 § 6102 which defines the firearms which are subject to § 6111b1. However those definitions are not followed and ALL firearms sold through a FFL are now subject to PICS, not just the ones clearly defined, so as to make it an even more complete registry then originally codified in 18 § 6111b1 which, as originally written, was undoubtedly was the basis of the SC ruling. Somebody needs to get this back to the PA Supreme Court. Good luck. |
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Well the .gov is good at one thing. Contradiction.
Quoted:
Well its all very contradicting. On one side you have 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 which clearly forbids "any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth." Then you have Title 18 § 6111b1 which lays out the procedure PICS which in fact creates a registration of firearm ownership via sales records. The PA Supreme Court has ruled it does not violate 6111.4 because it is not a "complete" registry. But 6111.4 forbids not just "complete" registries, but any registry, which 6111b1 in fact is. Then you have Title 18 § 6102 which defines the firearms which are subject to § 6111b1. However those definitions are not followed and ALL firearms sold through a FFL are now subject to PICS, not just the ones clearly defined, so as to make it an even more complete registry then originally codified in 18 § 6111b1 which, as originally written, was undoubtedly was the basis of the SC ruling. Somebody needs to get this back to the PA Supreme Court. Good luck. |
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