Agreed.

I don’t buy that. 300 HAMR factory loads from WC are (or were initially) loaded using CFE-BLK.

Reference
https://www.handloadermagazine.com/shooting-the-300-ham-r

The same article specifically touts it as a 200 yds and in round.

I just realized I misunderstood your point.  That's on me.  For the record, I have always stated that it's a personal choice and that the .300BLK is not for everyone.  Actually, I even said that it's a very small niche target market.  And most people aren't in that niche.  I misread that you were arguing that the is NO point to the .300BLK and thought that was what you were trying to get people to accept.  My bad.

The points made for and against are mostly good information for someone who has not made up their mind.  But for those who have, yeah, you're not gonna change their mind.

I agree 100% as well.  I'm just curious if some see it one way or another.   There are not a lot of rifle rounds specifically developed to be both, so I think there are a lot of semi-auto rifle calibers out there that get the same two ended scrutiny...especially since this round was developed to replace a specific gun (MP5SD) within specific parameters.

Yeah, my point only is that if you want the advantages of 300 blackout there are ways to train that don't break the bank if you are interested.  There never was some meta point (from me) that everyone should want one.

I didn't make that up, it came from Bill Wilson per Guns and Ammo.  BUT, to be fair, CFE BLK is closer to a rifle powder and has a slightly slower burn rate than H110 or Lil'Gun and is a bit more bulky and has slightly more gas production.  That's why CFE BLK is the best powder to load subsonic .300 BLK.  But supersonics need something faster burning.

Early on, I read every page of the 300HAM'R thread on the Texas Hog Hunters forum (first 70 or so) trying to get insight into 300 HAM'R.   I know WC uses different powders for their lighter grain rounds, and early on, something other than CFE BLK was used (H110 or Lil'Gun?), but I can't remember all of the details (I think the current two are SOCOM and CFE BLK).  It had something to do with HAM'R using a carbine length gas port and other technical stuff.  I may have to go back and re-read it all.   I do specifically remember Bill himself saying that the 8" had quite a bit of blast, especially compared to the 11.3" (His word was "unacceptable", and he recommends the 11.3" over the 8").   That was a key part for me because I shoot unsuppressed.  If I'm going to end up with a lot of flash/gas/blast/recoil (he also said moving to 110's for the 8" helped recoil), I might as will stick with my 5.56 out of a short barrel.  

I still eyeball HAM'R's every now and then, but Illinois isn't a good state for the caliber.  It isn't deer legal, and the state isn't completely overrun with hogs (as of yet)...especially up north.  And even if it was, they can only be hunted during deer firearm season WHILE deer hunting...so unless you are walking around with two guns, shooting one with a non deer caliber could get you in trouble.

It does tend to get lost in these debates that the .300HAM'R was a purpose built hog gun.

Question.  if you're only shooting unsuppressed, why would you not choose a 16" barrel and benefit from the FPS increase?  The right barrel doesn't add enough weight to really matter.  I supposed it's still a more compact package, but it's sacrificing bullet speed.  (It's an honest question, I'm not judging your choices.)

ETA... Caught my grammar mistake.

In a lot of Chicago-land (Chicago Proper, a bunch of other places in Cook County,  plus Aurora, Deerfield, ect) there is a ban "assault rifles".   However, due to pre-emption in the state laws, AR pistols (and 30 round mags) fall under handguns, which are allowed in many places.  AR pistols are even covered under our concealed carry laws.   You can deer hunt with an AR pistol if it is single shot 30cal, and has at least a 4 inch barrel.(you can use a Bob sled or single shot follower).  Illinois is a straight wall state with the exception of bottleneck cartridges that are at least 30 caliber with a case length that does not exceed 1.4 inches.  Lucky for us, .300blk has a 1.368 inch case length.  7.62x39 is too long.

Basically, there isn't a lot of incentive to run a longer barrel in Chicago-land.    I've thought about picking up a 16" barrel for poops and giggles, but it would just sit in the safe.

One of the claims I keep seeing is how the 300 Whisper is the perfect law enforcement cartridge but I've never seen it in a patrol car in my area. We tested a few commercial options and found the round was easily defeated by even low level body armor.  So, in the end we stuck with the .223 and 308 Winchester.

OK, that makes perfect sense.  That's why it helps to understand the position you're in.  I can't put myself in your shoes because I'm not constrained by the same laws.  Thanks for the explanation.

Huh?

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And I have read that article. The comment you’re referencing about 400 yds reads to me more like BW telling people “don’t expect a sniper rifle” as opposed to “it’s made to reach out 400 yds”. Maybe I’m wrong though.

If I’m carrying a rifle-weight build, all things being equal (meaning need for suppression doesn’t dominate) I want as close to rifle-level velocity and ballistics.  For comparable quality ammo good 5.56 SBR loads aren’t much cheaper than blackout.  Blackout gives up some MPBR yardage and trades ammo weight and logistics for a shorter front end and easier to tame muzzle blast.  And adds a quieter subsonic option. It’s a very balanced mid-power sturmgewehr cartridge with excellent bullets available in 110-125 grain and 190-240 grain range for subs.   It’s utility might wane if/when pistol braces get harassed into the closet.

That is odd, I'm not sure what was tested or how long ago (since you called it Whisper).

Most supers easily defeat level IIIA armor  
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/01/03/rifle-ammunition-soft-body-armor/


Non-expanding (FMJ/OTM) subs defeat level II armor....(and can even defeat bulletproof glass as well)




Expanding subs will not defeat level II armor.

Where you testing subsonics vs IIIA or expanding subs vs level 2 armor?
If you were testing against plate armor, then yes supers will fail....but so will a lot of rifle rounds.

Agreed, with supers there's many good reasons to not use anything less than a 16" barrel, and there is also a good argument for using 300 HAMR instead.

However, my issue with 300 HAMR is that I can go into multiple different local gun stores ranging from truly local stores with only one location to a chain store like Cabelas or Sportsmans and they usually stock 300 BLK in multiple different loads and I can't say the same for 300 HAMR. In fact, I've never seen 300 HAMR anywhere other than online-- usually on Wilson Combat's website. Further, for those who primarily use their rifle at the target range, I don't see the cost justification.

So, I absolutely agree that it's great to have bunch of different caliber choices when it comes to AR15's.  And, depending on your circumstances and intended used the 300 BO may not be the best caliber for you.  So, if you want to shoot out to 6-700 yards 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 would be a solid choice and the 300 BO not so much.  For certain hunting applications .458 Socom or maybe 300 Whisper would be a better choices.  If you reload like Arizonarifleman, have invested a bunch of money in dies, etc. and don't want a bunch of different calibers, it makes sense that you might not have a use for 300 BO.

I guess my point is this:

If a new member came on this forum and said he didn't have an AR and wanted to buy a single "do it all" gun, I think most of us would recommend a 16" or 14.5" p&w AR in 5.56, probably with a LPVO, a red dot with a magnifier, or maybe an ACOG.  This recommendation makes sense because you end up with a gun that's short enough to be relatively maneuverable and work as a home defense gun, long enough that you can shoot out to 2-300 yards without losing too much velocity, ammo is cheap and plentiful, etc.  The gun won't be quite as effective as an 18"-20' AR at longer ranges, nor as maneuverable as a 10.5" AR in QCB situations, but it is a good compromise.

But suppose you already have your "do it all" AR and are interested in buying a pistol or an SBR that will have a 8-12" barrel, and which you could use as your primary home defense gun.  Isn't the 300 BO an objectively better choice than 5.56?  And yes, there may be reasons some people will go with 5.56 ... primarily cost and availability of ammo. But shouldn't the default recommendation for short barreled AR's be 300 BO because of its superior ballistics and reduced blast out of barrels under 12" and the option of hearing safe suppression if you use subs.?

And having said that, as someone who probably owns too many AR's I absolutely have short barreled AR's in 5.56 and honestly shoot them a lot more than my 300 BO upper ... primarily because the cost of ammo.  But if you told me I could only keep one pistol/sbr it would be my 300 BO.

You're still pleading. I don't understand myself why you cannot accept it that people are going to continue liking or not liking things or in your case, keep not recommending things that you want them to be doing instead.

If I'd needed something in 18 to 20 then I am where I should never have been and am doing it wrong. I would never go 10.5 because 11.5 is the shortest I would allow because of the numbers.

And I already have a short barrel (11.5). Even if I was starting out new, I'd still want 5.56 over .300 BO because one is more plentiful, cheaper, and easier to find over the other. That means objectively 300 still is the worst choice for me. So with that said the default answer you will have to accept and stop arguing and finally realize that your agenda won't work, is always going to be 5.56. Your counter that 300 BO is superior in those things only rings true with subsonic. IDGAF about subsonic. If I was that concerned about it, I'd use 45 ACP because it's already prevalent. JFC, why is this so hard for others to grasp right now that there's more than one way to have hearing safe that isn't the same as what they want us to use, FFS guy...

I'm honestly am apathetic to your plight right now because despite your saying that you "understand" it's been apparent that you still do not. And if I could only have one AR, it would be in 5.56 and my SBR. The status quo still hasn't changed, please finally accept it and move on in peace, friend.

Arizona - I'm not going to keep doing this, because I doubt anyone else is really interested in the two of us getting into an extended pissing contest, but you've really got this completely backwards.  I'm, not "pleading" for anything.  I'm just wondering if anyone can come up with a credible argument for why 300 BO is not more popular, particularly if you are buying a pistol or an SBR.  And you just seem frustrated that I don't find your arguments particularly convincing.  So it's really you "pleading" with me to find your points persuasive.

Unfortunately, I don't.  So, if we look at your last post, you argue that 5.56 is vastly more popular because it is "cheaper, easier to find, and more plentiful".  But, as I previously pointed out, the cost differential between 5.56 and 300 BO is negligible (approx. .10 -.12 per round).  And if you try to find a 5.56 round that come close to matching the superior ballistics of 300 BO you're actually going to spend more per round.  On the other hand, if you're really looking for cheap and don't much care about ballistics why not buy an AR9 and shoot 9mm which is about .20 per round cheaper than 5.56?  Hell you can buy a .22 upper and feed it for .10 per round and really save money.  But of course if you're ever in a HD situation, you better hope you're being attacked by chipmunks.  

As for "easier to find and more plentiful", those are really the same thing aren't they?  And in any case, like you (and everyone else who posts on ARFCOM) I own a computer.  I have never had a problem finding 300 BO for sale - it generally takes less than 10 seconds using the Google machine.   Moreover, if you reload, both cost and availability are even less of a problem.

Finally, if your someone willing to drop $2-3000 on an AR15 because "I'm not going to cheap out on a gun I trust my life to" why wouldn't you spend an extra .12 a round to get the superior ballistics 300 BO gives you out of a short barrel?

To answer my own question I think the best explanation is simple ignorance.  People don't think about how much velocity a SBR in 5.56 gives up and don't know or don't care that 300 BO helps solve this problem.  And I suppose if you only own one AR, and you plan on putting thousands of rounds through it a year, the cost differential between 5.56 and 300 BO starts adding up, so yes the cost difference makes sense.    But if you already own a 14.5 - 16" AR and are buying a second (or third or fourth) AR that will have a barrel under 12" 300 BO just makes sense.

But clearly there are a bunch of people that feel that 300 BO is over priced, over hyped and a passing fad, and you are all entitled to your opinions.  I really don't care if anyone else agrees with my choices.  In fact I own AR's in multiple calibers, including .458 Socom, 6.5 Grendel, 300 BO and 9mm.  And I own a 10.5" AR upper in 5.56.  So I really don't need anyone to "validate" my choices.

So I guess I end up where I started on this - if someone were to ask me whether they should buy a 10.5-12" upper in 5.56 or 300 BO, my recommendation would still be 300 BO, unless they were to tell me they don't really care about ballistic performance or that the .12 per round cost differential is a deal breaker for them.  Of course YMMV.

That was a lot of projecting, inaccuracies using feelings based on biased opinions in lieu of legitimate facts, and most of all, begging from you for us to reconsider our positions. Especially on a less superior round that costs more and isn't worth any squeeze to me based on legitimate reasons.

I've said this over and over and will continue saying it over and over, that you should worry about you and stop worrying about others not supporting/recommending or committing to 300 BO. YMMV as well, you have your answer and the only ignorance is your own blinders to what's being said. A rational person with no stake in this matter would have figured this out on the first page of this thread and not try to argue with them on why they should change their minds. But not you, this is personal to you, otherwise you wouldn't have made this thread to plead with.

Please take the hints.

The status quo still hasn't changed and as always, this is unwinnable.

Just to be very crystal clear here:

The only time I would recommend the 300 BO is if the person had mentioned that they were looking for a subsonic cartridge that has more oomph than a pistol caliber but isn't supersonic in rifle caliber to get a 100 yard and inwards gun, and wanted it in a shortest package possible even with a silencer.

That would be it and only it, it really is a niche caliber.

But if one was wanting a short barreled rifle in a respectable length such as 11.5 to 12.5 and wanted a flat and fast round out to 300 and was going to either can it or forward blast can it if in a ban state for even NFA, I would always suggest 5.56/223 without even thinking about it because it really is the only obvious answer here. However if they also wanted it to be in a cartridge with more octane, I'd suggest the 6MM ARC instead because out of a 12" barrel that thing is still cooking at or slightly past 2,000 FPS.

Quoted from Fenix Ammo...


Due to the greater kinetic energy of the heavier projectile, .300 Blackout enjoys a greater degree of barrier blindness against common barriers – windshield glass, plywood sheeting, heavy clothing, and sheet metal commonly used for vehicle panels – than the 55, 62, and 68 grain projectiles used in the most common 5.56 NATO ammunition cartridges.

.300 Blackout is the superior caliber choice for short range engagement, especially when using carbines equipped with shorter barrels.


My primary reason for BO is I want a short barrel (8") I can deal with in tight quarters with as much punch as I can get.

I give not 1 shit about subs, I want a compact HD weapon with capacity and good ballistics inside 100 yards and I DON'T want to have to invest a bunch of $ in another complete weapon set-up with spare parts etc. and different ergos.

300 full of Barnes 110's fits the bill nicely.

YMMV.

Your statement clearly cuts both ways, and you’re begging (or whatever it is you keep saying) just as much if not more.

We get it, YOU don’t like 300 BLK. It’s not something you’re interested in and you never will be. You’ve stated your case repeatedly.

Other people (including the OP) disagree.

Irony here is right. Imagine asking why there isn't love for 300 BO, and actually getting the answer and wanting it to be ignored and pleading for people to change their mind.

You too are begging right now. While myself, LMAO, have nothing to beg for. But we too also get it, some people do not want to accept this answer and have chosen to ignore it and go on a loop as if it's going to change things. It's not. YMMV, mine will not.

Have a nice day.

Im not really sure what all the Karen’s are complaining about in this thread, but I sort have had the impression 300 blk was fairly popular as it is?  Sure it will never dethrone 9mm, 5.56, 22 LR, but it’s still fairly common.  All my buddies have 300 blk guns but only a few have an AK.

Also, whoever said they take a PCC in .45 ACP over a 300 blk SBR is just, well, that’s just tarded

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This. Subs are a sub-niche of a very efficient-for-envelope cartridge.  5.56 will have a flatter trajectory (and thus greater MPBR as far as aiming ease) and lighter ammo load but more muzzle blast and barrel length so system weight is close.  But most importantly blackout delivers the terminal goods with supers in a shorter, handier package. An 8” blackout with a short can is about the same length as an 11.5”  5.56 with an effective flash hider.  Recommending blackout for quiet subsonic use because it is also superior in that role (due to high BC bullets) is missing what good 110 grain supers can accomplish.  Kinetic energy of an 8” blackout is very close to what a 14.5” M4 delivers, from muzzle to beyond 300 yards.  A 110 grain vortex expands well throughout that range.  

I think people don’t get it because blackout emerged right around a time of exponential suppressor sales growth so the most vocal promoters have been quiet fetishists.

Good/Interesting/Funny video from Warrior Poet Society


Using these categories:
• Hog hunting - 300 super
• Sentry removal - 300 sub
• Range practice - 5.56
• Zombie apocalypse - both
• Human apocalypse - didn't say
• Home defense - hand grenade (could not decide)
• Fighting around vehicles - 300 super
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Again, 300blk is easily the 2nd most popular native small frame cartridge out there....so the question is around why isn't it MORE popular instead of why isn't it popular.  

$$$

This isn't restricted to .300blk  
Swap the price of cheap 7.62x39 ammo with 300 HAM'R or 6.8spc, and people would drop 7.62x39 like a bad habit while picking up one of the other calibers that has cheap ammo.

Where is the list that shows the rank in popularity?

Google "top 5 calibers in the AR-15"...the 300 Blk is in almost every single list you find.

I have no idea why someone would think 300 Blk isn't popular...it is very popular.

Besides, I like mine a lot...and for me, that's all that matters.

There is the list a couple of post above, and a quick google search of most popular/alternate ar-15 calibers return a list, usually with 300blk at or near the top (if ranked).  I can't think of a more popular native small frame cartridge than 300blk.    

https://www.80percentarms.com/blog/the-3-best-and-most-popular-ar15-calibers/
https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/best-ar-cartridges-and-calibers-what-to-use-and-when/
https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/ammo-sales-info/


https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/top-5-most-useful-ar-15-cartridges/247789#:~:text=308%2Ddiameter%20projectiles%20and%20trimmed,As%20a%20result%2C%20the%20.
From this link:
"Without a doubt the second-most-popular AR-15 cartridge currently available, the .300 AAC Blackout also possesses the distinction of being remarkably focused."

Got into 300 blk early on out of curiosity mainly. Made a bunch of brass, reloaded, etc. I'm just not interested in subsonic or sbr's, and I couldn't get accuracy I wanted with supers with those long throats. I wound up selling everything off except the dies.

If you don't shoot subsonic suppressed, what's the point? I just have no need for it.

Caliber competition.
6.5 grendel is a literally an all purpose caliber vs 300 bo designed for a niche.
6.5 grendel wolf steel case was sold at 25 cents a round prepandemic compared to dollar round plus for 300 bo.
Now, steel and brass case prices for both rounds are close in price, so why would people sell their 6.5 grendel gear all at once for a loss and put more money into 300bo if they didnt have a niche need?  

300 blackout. For those ultra specific purposes.

Grendel is great in barrels 12”+.   Blackout lets you perform the roles of an MP5 and M4 in a weapon with AR ergonomics and manual of arms and a slightly smaller size/weight.  One man’s niche is another man’s all-rounder.  Plenty of people find 11.5-12.5” 5.56 adequate.  The market abides.

It’s no more a competition than chef’s arguing about their favorite knife (which may relate more to their favorite dish to prepare).  All tool families have their trades between versatility and specialization.  Cartridge logistics are often the big driver over the long haul.

I don't fully understand the part about having to sell your 6.5G?  Why sell anything?
Honestly I don't see too many comparison of 6.5G to .300blk, they have totally different purposes.  I've always maintained that most "rifle" rounds really take hold at/above the 1 foot'ish (barrel length) mark...that includes the 6.5G.  300blk plays below that mark, so it does not have to be one or the other.  

Regarding price, right before wu-flu, Wolf introduced cheap-ish steel .300blk. I had to look up my order from TargetsportUSA. It was $195.75 (with free shipping and no prime discount) for 500 rounds on May 19th, 2020 ($215.13 with tax).   I remember being pissed at the time because I though $.40/rnd was too much for steel.....oh the lulz...if I only knew.  

---------

As far as "niches" go, I often see that term thrown around, but I think everyone has a different opinion on exactly what niche 300blk fits in.  I personally see two so called "niches" that are slightly related, but are not the same thing.  One being suppressed/subsonic.  The other being short barrels performance (including things like recoil, function and blast).   I think those two "niches" combined makes 300blk a bit bigger than a "niche" caliber, I'd say more like a decent sized market segment (makes sense given its popularity), especially when 5.56 parts and brass compatibility is included in the equation.  

But it isn't for everyone, because it can be damn expensive to run...so it may not be worth it for some.  

@GrimEReaper what handguard is that?  It looks good!

This is a funny thread.

300 BLK is extremely popular.

The only thing holding it back is ammo availability really.

I reload so I don't care so much.

300 HAMR is also awesome. It's probably my favorite cartridge at the moment.

Its similar to 300 BLK in that it's not intended for long range but it is EXTREMELY accurate in my experience and you could easily shoot it 500+ yards with the proper dope. I couldn't link up a shot that long around here  anyway so for me it is purely theoretical.

I have gone both ways with 300. My last rifle was a 10.5" barrel and it was "ok". I sold it and then went on a PCC rampage. I bought two MP5 clones along with a MPX. The problems that I had with them was that I was limited to a 9mm round and that the magazines didn't work in my gear set ups. While cruising through YT one night I watched a video of a Sig rattler being ran over a chronograph and the numbers were acceptable from the 5.5" barrel.

I built my current 300 with the understanding that it would have a 100 yard envelope with supers and mainly using subs. I picked up a 6" barrel mounted my Omega 9k on it and threw a rail over it. This rifle with can is the same length as my 10.5" without a can. Couple that with a Law folder and it's a great portable tool that's main purpose is a house gun with 220 grain soft points. When it goes into a backpack I keep it loaded with subs and a couple magazines filled with 110 grain supers. Very handy with multiple purposes, as long as I remember that it's got a 100 yard engagement limit.